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Question to Christians From a Jewish Friend
December 9, 2004 | Michael Katz

Posted on 12/08/2004 11:08:38 PM PST by Mike10542

Hey fellow freepers, having been swept up in the battle of conservatives first liberals and believers in God vs. non-beleivers I clearly have chosen the right side here (hence me writing on Free Republic). The alignment of Jews like myself and many fellow Christians is one that I feel is very necesary to win the war against evil and have peace in our time. Although I choose to ignore all the leftists and others who try to break up this loving partnership by saying "They are only on your side becuase they want the Jews in control of Jerusalem so Christ returns," I am looking to explore what the Bible really teaches about the Jewish fate from the Christian perspective. It is hard to find what the majority opinion is because the internet is, well, the internet. What I have made out so far is that during rapture I beleive 2/3's of Jews are killed, but one third survive. So my questions are:

1) What do the 2/3's of Jews die from (war, just happens????)

2) What happens to the remaning 1/3 of Jews after they survive?

3) Do any of this remaining 1/3 of Jews make it past the final judgement of God (some interpertations say no, others say the remaining Jews are allowed to pass once accepting God and I think Christ)

I truly beleive in my Jewish fate as I have been raised Jewish, but my mom is Christian. So each religion I respect and believe are good. Ultimately, I hope us Jews and Christians both make it together to the promised land (and only the Muslims are sent to hell!)

Thanks for all your answers. Also, feel free to direct me to anywhere where I can learn more about this subject.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: endtimes; prophecy; rapture
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Comment #101 Removed by Moderator

To: nopardons; lara; Jim Robinson
I'm sorry. Someone asked about Biblical prophesy. I tried to answer best I could. Must bother you a lot. Why would that be?

BTW, it's not nice to refer to another poster without pinging them.

102 posted on 12/09/2004 12:49:08 AM PST by Dec31,1999 (www.protestwarrior.com)
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To: Bandaneira
Since my religion forbids gambling,I wouldn't ever be a bookie and I replied to your,evidently,obtuse,blindingly ill-written post. Do read your own and remove the beam from your eye,before having a hissy fit over the mote that doesn't exist in my eye.
103 posted on 12/09/2004 12:49:27 AM PST by nopardons
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To: Nathaniel Fischer

Christ saved all of us but it is up to each individual to receive His gift.


104 posted on 12/09/2004 12:50:14 AM PST by Quinotto (On matters of style,swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Quinotto

You are correct about prayers and as I now retire to bed, I shall include him.

Have a good night and a Merry Christmas!


105 posted on 12/09/2004 12:50:47 AM PST by texasflower (Liberty can change habits. ~ President George W. Bush 10/08/04)
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To: Bandaneira
There are others,far better written than one at the end of that link;however,it's a weird/tinfoil concoction at best and utter lunacy too.
106 posted on 12/09/2004 12:51:39 AM PST by nopardons
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To: texasflower

Thank you, same to you. :)


107 posted on 12/09/2004 12:52:39 AM PST by Quinotto (On matters of style,swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Mike10542
The Bible is a Jewish book, cover to cover. In it you will find promise after promise to Israel; numerous covenants; prophecy (history written in advance), and most of all, G-d's faithful and undying love for His people, the Jews.

However, there is not much hope of your understanding it all unless you are willing to read - without bias -the entire Torah, Prophets and the B'rit Chadasha (renewed convenant).

In Isaiah 53, a portion of scripture that is rarely if ever read in synagogue, the prophet speaks of the suffering servant (Yeshua - which translated means 'and he will save his people from their sin').

If you will read and consider who this servant might be, comparing both Jewish writings AND respected Christian commentaries, you will be hard pressed to come to any conclusion other than that Yeshua is the Messiah. No other explanation is borne out by Scripture, and the Rabinnic explanations generally obfuscate the issue and generally contradict themselves in the process.

Regarding the Rapture (harpatzo in the Greek, meaning to "catch away") it is prophesied to occur "when the fullness of the gentiles be come in".

The nation of Israel was to be "a light to the Gentiles", but they failed. The church is supposed to bless Israel and pray for the peace of Jerusalem, and they also failed. The church is trending that way now, but many still follow a "replacement theology" wherein the term "Israel" is spiritualized and the church has redefined itself as "spiritual Israel" - even though Romans 9,10 & 11 make it unmistakably clear that G-d will never forsake his people. The book of Daniel, most notably Chapters 9 and 12, Daniel is given visions from G-d, through His messenger Michael, of the unfolding history up to and including the "end-times". And in Chap. 12, Verse 1, Michael says "and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a naiton even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.Which book would that be? The Lamb's Book of Life - written in Yeshua's blood that was shed for the whole world, as well as for His people Israel, most of whome, heartbreakingly, rejected His messiaship.

The "time of trouble" is the "time of Jacob's trouble - a time the church refers to as the great tribulation. It is at the end of that time that the plan of redemption will come to its fulfilment in Yeshua's return to claim of his people - those who have accepted his identity as Redeemer and L-d of L-ds, the one who reconciles the world to the G-dhead. At that time there will be neither Jew nor Gentile, but rather only each individual's belief in Him, and in His purpose for being born, crucified and resurrected.

If you will examine ALL of the evidence, you will be able to come to your own conclusion. Hope this helps.

108 posted on 12/09/2004 12:54:52 AM PST by steenkeenbadges
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To: Quinotto

>Indeed, it is. This is why people like Bandaneira need our
>understanding, patience and prayers. Afterall, Christ died
>for him too.

AMEN!!!


109 posted on 12/09/2004 12:55:15 AM PST by ROTB
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To: Nathaniel Fischer
No,it isn't...

Christians are redeened BY the REDEEMER! And belief that the Christ died for us and living as we should,is how we are saved.You said something akin to that,hence,you discredited /refuted yourself. LOL

110 posted on 12/09/2004 12:55:43 AM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
That's not what all Christians believe.

If you don't believe that, you most certainly are not a Christian.
That's not an optional belief.
It's as fundamental as any principle of Christianity.

Ephesians
2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves:
it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

111 posted on 12/09/2004 12:56:00 AM PST by trickyricky
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To: nopardons

I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but your understanding of orthodox Christian theology is sorely lacking.


112 posted on 12/09/2004 1:02:49 AM PST by papertyger
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To: Mike10542
Ultimately, I hope us Jews and Christians both make it together to the promised land (and only the Muslims are sent to hell!)

Real Christians pray that all people are saved. Jesus did not teach us to pray our enemies go to hell.

113 posted on 12/09/2004 1:04:26 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Dec31,1999
It's perfectly fine to say what Jim's rules are, WITHOUT pinging him.

Someone asked about the RAPTURE,which is not Biblical prophesy;"THE RAPTURE" isn't in the Bible. It's a relatively "new" idea,which was an extrapolation on Revelations and goodness knows what else.

What do you imagine bothers me...the Second Coming,or some tinfoil Christian fiction? Take your choice.Here's a hint,it isn't the former. :-)

114 posted on 12/09/2004 1:05:46 AM PST by nopardons
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To: Bandaneira
"We can by our very actions redeem the universe, i.e. Counter-Balance the evil. We can change the course of human history. That is our divine role, even if many people have forgotten it.

Interesting concepts. But may I ask, how do you decide what is "evil"? If I slap you in the face, you might get upset. But in my universe, slapping is perfectly acceptable, and besides, you have no rights in my universe, only I do So YOU are the evil one for trying to stop me from exercising my right to follow my "good" beliefs.

Also, what do you mean by "divinity"???? Please define the term.

How about "redeem" - redeem from what? And exactly what is the "course of human history"? And if you have the power to "change" it, you can only prove that by revealing what was to be versus the "changed" version.Can you do that? And exactly what's being "changed"?

Why not read the oldest source book on human history - the Bible - and see exactly how history can be written in advance?

115 posted on 12/09/2004 1:08:15 AM PST by steenkeenbadges
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To: trickyricky
Sheeeeeeeeeeesh...........who died and made YOU GOD?

I am a Christian,though many so called Christians on FR,make me wonder if they are.

Reread what I wrote and if you are still in a quandary,get someone with better comprehension skills to explain it to you.

116 posted on 12/09/2004 1:09:07 AM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
"Someone asked about the RAPTURE,which is not Biblical prophesy"

You need to do some reading in your Bible, you are embarrassing yourself.

1 Thessalonians
4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which
are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent
them which are asleep.

4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with
the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead
in Christ shall rise first:

4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we
ever be with the Lord.

4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

117 posted on 12/09/2004 1:13:54 AM PST by trickyricky
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To: nopardons
Reread what I wrote

Read post # 112

118 posted on 12/09/2004 1:18:18 AM PST by trickyricky
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To: trickyricky
Unlike some,I am not "embarrassing" myself on this thread.

People like you,who make ridiculous statements,such as "you need to do some reading in your Bible",for example. You have no idea if I've ever read the Bible,or how many times I've read.LOL

The historical fact is,generation after generation have thought that they were living in the "END TIMES",since Jesus was crucified.They weren't. Will they come? When GOD sees fit.

OTOH,there is NOTHING at all in any scripture,which says what the modern novels say will happen and the RAPTURE stuff is NOT a universally Christian ethos/principle.

119 posted on 12/09/2004 1:20:02 AM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons

Good night, my friend. Keep studying your Bible


120 posted on 12/09/2004 1:23:57 AM PST by trickyricky
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To: trickyricky

Good night and perhaps you should follow your own advice. ;^)


121 posted on 12/09/2004 1:24:45 AM PST by nopardons
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To: papertyger
"ORTHODOX"? And just what,pray tell,do you mean by that?

My understanding of Christianity is quite good,actually and is devoid of tinfoil...which is why I stay off the Religion here. ;^)

122 posted on 12/09/2004 1:26:59 AM PST by nopardons
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To: Bandaneira
To explain how and why I know would take me a few hours . Writng down my reasons would take too way long here. You'll have to take my word for it !

Now that is truly one the lamest excuses there is. Nice try but sorry dude but that don't cut it. If you can't back it up it don't mean nothing. We got plenty of time and plenty of bandwidth. So lay it out there. If you are really in the know why keep it a secret?

123 posted on 12/09/2004 1:28:34 AM PST by Captain Beyond (The Hammer of the gods! (Just a cool line from a Led Zep song))
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To: ROTB

"Notice how low France is going..."

lol


124 posted on 12/09/2004 1:30:00 AM PST by Anti-Christ is Hillary (John Kerry - Flip Flop shock and awe)
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To: backhoe

>Jews are God's people, and so are Christians. At the end of
>time, I think ( and hope ) He will slap you on the back, >and say "well done." I don't think minor theological
>difference matter much to a being so vastly higher than
>ourselves.

This is what the New Testament says on this subject ...

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6


125 posted on 12/09/2004 1:30:48 AM PST by ROTB
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To: Mike10542; MonitorMaid
I only wish hell to the truly evil people

Real Christians don't think like that. This is how we pray for our enemies:

Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.

Enemies have driven me into your embrace more than friends have. Friends have bound me to earth, enemies have loosed me from earth and have demolished all my aspirations in the world.

Enemies have made me a stranger in worldly realms and an extraneous inhabitant of the world. Just as a hunted animal finds safer shelter than an unhunted animal does, so have I, persecuted by enemies, found the safest sanctuary, having ensconced myself beneath your tabernacle, where neither friends nor enemies can slay my soul.

Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.

They, rather than I, have confessed my sins before the world. They have punished me, whenever I have hesitated to punish myself. They have tormented me, whenever I have tried to flee torments. They have scolded me, whenever I have flattered myself. They have spat upon me, whenever I have filled myself with arrogance.

Bless my enemies, O Lord, Even I bless them and do not curse them.

Whenever I have made myself wise, they have called me foolish.
Whenever I have made myself mighty, they have mocked me as though I were a dwarf.
Whenever I have wanted to lead people, they have shoved me into the background.
Whenever I have rushed to enrich myself, they have prevented me with an iron hand.
Whenever I thought that I would sleep peacefully, they have wakened me from sleep.
Whenever I have tried to build a home for a long and tranquil life, they have demolished it and driven me out. Truly, enemies have cut me loose from the world and have stretched out my hands to the hem of your garment.

Bless my enemies, O Lord. Even I bless them and do not curse them.

Bless them and multiply them; multiply them and make them even more bitterly against me: so that my fleeing to You may have no return; so that all hope in men may be scattered like cobwebs; so that absolute serenity may begin to reign in my soul; so that my heart may become the grave of my two evil twins, arrogance and anger; so that I might amass all my treasure in heaven; ah, so that I may for once be freed from self-deception, which has entangled me in the dreadful web of illusory life.

Enemies have taught me to know what hardly anyone knows, that a person has no enemies in the world except himself. One hates his enemies only when he fails to realize that they are not enemies, but cruel friends. It is truly difficult for me to say who has done me more good and who has done me more evil in the world: friends or enemies. Therefore bless, O Lord, both my friends and enemies. A slave curses enemies, for he does not understand. But a son blesses them, for he understands. For a son knows that his enemies cannot touch his life. Therefore he freely steps among them and prays to God for them.

St Nikolai Velimirovich

126 posted on 12/09/2004 1:30:49 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Bandaneira

Collecting your previous posts ...

>Wow, I don't think humankind deserves death and hell.

Please see http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~allenp/ORIGINALSIN.html

>No, Mike. Don't look at Jews for Jesus. It is a waste of
>your time.

Here's the evidence in the Old Testament which points to the 1st century arrival of the messiah found http://www.yfiles.com/y3nf.html and http://yfiles.com/shiloh.html

>One does not need an intermediary to connect to the higher
>force.

If God ordained the priest of Psalms 110 to be our intermediary, then who are we to complain? Psalms 80:17 makes it clear that the individual at God's right hand is the Son of Man. Daniel 7:14 shows that the Son of Man will be given an everlasting kingdom. Jeremiah 23:6 tells us that in the days of this King, Judah shall be saved. "Saved" implies forgiveness of sin, which Zechariah 3:9 implies will be done through an engraving action on a stone with seven eyes. Zechariah 4:10 tells us that God Himself has seven eyes.

God informs us of his using "similitudes" in the speakings of the prophets in Hosea 12:10.

>Which one of the following sects best approximates your
>belief system/frame of reference ?

The New Testament, like the Old Testament, are the Word of God, because they say what happens thousands of years before they happen. What man builds on top of the Word of God, does not make the Word of God cease to be so. There could be a million incorrect sects of Christianity, and it still wouldn't transform God's truths and Word into lies.

Christianity can withstand the strongest scrutiny. I invite you to write me privately, and we can arrange to meet and lay out the evidence for and against Jesus Christ being Messiah and God.


127 posted on 12/09/2004 1:33:46 AM PST by ROTB
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To: ROTB
This is what the New Testament says on this subject ...

I'm well aware of that, newbie.

128 posted on 12/09/2004 1:34:01 AM PST by backhoe (-30-)
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To: trickyricky
Post#112 is arrogant,unChristian,and most assuredly silly to boot.

And telling me to read someone else's post,which was directed to me anyway,using it as a way to trash me,without writing it yourself,is so SINFUL,as to be actually funny! LOL

You and the writer of that post have broken one of the ten commandments.Now how is THAT going to help you reach heaven? :-)

129 posted on 12/09/2004 1:35:27 AM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
My understanding of Christianity is quite good,actually and is devoid of tinfoil...which is why I stay off the Religion here. ;^)

It's not and you don't You're just a nasty troll, really.

130 posted on 12/09/2004 1:41:16 AM PST by Dec31,1999 (www.protestwarrior.com)
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To: nopardons
My understanding of Christianity is quite good...

No, it isn't. In fact, everything from your mis-naming of the book of Revelation (no plural there), to your petulant claims that no one knows how much you read the Bible, fairly scream "light-weight." You might as well claim to be a sniper who can't recall bullet drops for a .308. And while you may not be embarrassed, it's only because you don't recognize how painfully obvious your lack of knowlege is to the rest of us.

131 posted on 12/09/2004 1:43:14 AM PST by papertyger
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To: loboinok
Which one of the following sects [sic,/b>] best approximates your belief system/frame of reference ?

There is one Apostolic Church -- with two Rites: East (Orthodox) and West (Roman Catholic) -- that has been around since the Pentecost, and She is no sect.

All others are whatever you want to call them. Get your facts straight.

132 posted on 12/09/2004 1:44:46 AM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Bandaneira

Here are a few simple questions. Did Noah want a worldwide flood so he could build an ark? Did Abraham want to kill Isaac to obey God? Did Abraham want to see the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed to rescue Lot? Did Moses want want the angel of death to come and kill the first born so that Pharaoh would finally free the Israelites?


133 posted on 12/09/2004 1:45:55 AM PST by Captain Beyond (The Hammer of the gods! (Just a cool line from a Led Zep song))
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To: Dec31,1999
How exceedingly childish!

And YOU imagine that you are a "good" Christian? That's just too too funny for words.But that's what FR's religion threads always turn into...flame wars.And it's also why they are oh so boring to boot. LOL

134 posted on 12/09/2004 1:59:31 AM PST by nopardons
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To: Mike10542
2/3 of the Jews are not killed during the rapture. You're confusing different events. The rapture marks the end of the present age with the translation of the true church into the Lord's presence in the clouds. This doctrine is one of the major considerations of the Eschatology of the New Testament (Jn 14:1-3; 2 Thes 2:1; 1 Thes 4:13-18; 1 Cor 1:8; 15:51,52; Phil. 3:20,21; 2 Cor 5:1-9). The major issues with respect to the rapture are the premillenialists who debate who is raptured, and pretribulationalists, midtribulationist posttribulationists raise issue with when the rapture occurs. Also there is the non-literal view of the second advent.

This is by those who dispute a literal, bodily, personal, return to earth by Christ. Frankly, this is a result of disbelief in the Word of God (or the spiritualizing method of interpretation). The postmillenial view, popular among covenant theologians, teaches that the world through preaching of the Gospel will be Christianized and brought to sumission to the Gospel before the return of Christ. Those who hold to this view while holding to a literal second, follow the Old Testament teaching on the nature of the millenium kingdom. Amillenialists hold that there is no literal millenium on earth followed by a second advent. All the prophecies concerning the kingdom are being fullfilled in the inter-advent period spiritually by the church. In its most general characterization, amillenialists deny a literal 1000 year reign of Christ upon the earth.

Two events are occuring in parallel post-rapture. For the church the first to occur is the judgement seat of Christ (also known as the bema seat), and then the marriage of the Lamb. Simultaneous with this is the Tribulation that occurs on earth. Many things occur during that time; the Book of Revelation illuminates that time in great detail.

Frankly, all these issues can be resolved through the use of proper hermeneutic and exegetical (reading out of, expounded by) interpretation of scripture. A no more satisfactory resolution can be made than a pre-trib rapture with a pre-millenial second advent of Christ. Any other doctrine is flawed, and is a result of improper hermeneutic and or an eisegetical (reading into or applying onto) interpretation of scripture.

135 posted on 12/09/2004 1:59:56 AM PST by raygun
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To: papertyger
Reading comprehension classes would do you a world of good,dear. :-)

So would attempting to be a Christian.

Tsk,tsk,tsk.......

136 posted on 12/09/2004 2:01:36 AM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
This thread has been moved to the Religion Forum, which means you are now in my part of Free Republic. It also means that your combative style of posting is not welcome here.

Knock it off. Make your claim good - stay off the Religion Forum.

137 posted on 12/09/2004 2:05:04 AM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: kosta50; Bandaneira

You are posting to the wrong person.You need to direct your post to Bandaneira.


138 posted on 12/09/2004 2:16:18 AM PST by loboinok (GUN CONTROL IS HITTING WHAT YOU AIM AT.)
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To: Bandaneira
No, we (at least no Christian believer I know) wants a war for that reason! (Many Christians have major questions about the way the rapture doctrine is taught. Yes, there are 'caught up' scriptures in the NT, but there are also 'endure to the end' scriptures. It's okay with the Lord if we put all this stuff on a big shelf in our minds, and wait for confirmation in our spirits by the Holy Spirit, and not just accept every doctrine we don't see in balance AND context in the Word. Koresh and Jim Jones expected their followers to check their minds at the door, but God gave us our minds for a reason. )

We are told to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, NOT to pray for a war there. I've only heard this theory (about Chrisitans only siding with Jewish people because we want them in charge of Jerusalem to hasten the return of Christ) from those trying to drive a wedge between the two groups. I've NEVER heard this idea taught from any pulpit at any church I've attended or any teaching I've listened to. Most of what I've listened to is concerned with becoming Christ-like in life, dying daily to selfishness and self-centeredness and walking in love with your family and neighbors.

I don't know about other Christians, but whenever I meet a Jewish person, I have a genuine affection for them, and a real desire to understand their faith, because I think their faith sheds so much light on our own. I could go on for pages about all of the rich language in the Old Testament, which is vital for Christians to have an understanding of in order to more fully grasp our own heritage.

So, in answer to your very simple question:

No, I don't want a major war.

139 posted on 12/09/2004 2:58:55 AM PST by Tuscaloosa Goldfinch (THANK YOU LORD -- John Kerry is still just a senator.)
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To: ROTB

Christianity doesn't stand or fall upon the veracity of the Bible. Christianity stands or falls on whether or not Jesus Christ is whom He said He was. If Jesus Christ is not the Son of God, the blemishless lamb of God who comes to wash away the sins of the world, then the greatest movement since the invention of mankind is entirely predicated on a lie. Who would knowingly and willingly die for a lie (suffering excruciating torment and torture in the process)? All but one of the apostles died violent deaths. Furthermore, and that notwithstanding, the empty tomb needs a suitable explanation.


140 posted on 12/09/2004 2:59:13 AM PST by raygun
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To: Mike10542
Do not embrace "The Rapture" as settled Christian doctrine. It originated with a handful of marginal 19th Century Protestant ministers but has been recently taken up and popularized by evangelicals and amplified by their vigorous publishing and entertainment media.

There is a great deal of exegesis and commentary behind "The Rapture," but thin support in the text of the Bible. Indeed, "The Rapture" is rejected by the Roman Catholic Church and its putative source, the Apocalypse, is not regarded as canonical and hence is seen as unreliable as a guide in matters of faith. Here is a short take against the validity of "The Rapture" as Christian doctrine: http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft0211/opinion/olson.html And the author's website" http://www.carl-olson.com/wcblb_home.html Personally, I am inclined to believe that the Irish nuns of my youth had it right: God will one day end the world by fire, with the exception of faithful Ireland, which will mercifully slip into the sea.

Your personal accommodation between Christianity and Judaism reflects a larger trend that intellectually traces back to Franz Rosenzweig in his treatise, the Star of Redemption, in the early part of the last century. In essence, he contended that God's unique relationship with the Jewish people endures, but that Christianity was God's extension of it to the rest of the world. Thus "Christianity is Judaism for the Gentiles." Rosenzweig, a noted German Jewish intellectual, came close to converting to Christianity.

Rosensweig's ideas were popularized by conservative Jewish scholar Will Herberg in the US in the 50's and 60's. He unsuccessfully argued against Jewish hostility to Christian expression in the public square on the basis that it was foolish and damaging to Jews in the long run.

More recently, one can look to leading conservative magazines dealing with religious issues, Commentary (Jewish) and First Things (Christian, with strong Catholic influence). There is a consistent rejection of slights and slurs against Christianity in Commentary and a similar rejection of slights and slurs against Judaism in First Things. The sense of mutual respect and support between Christianity and Judaism in both publications and elsewhere is sincere and thorough.

In a profound sense, America leads the world not just in the religiosity of it people, but in the good relations between most faiths. Islam is a new and uncertain element, its place and intentions clouded by Wahhabist extremism, terrorism, and the rise of political Islam and hatred of Israel and Jews as a defining feature of the Islamic identity.
141 posted on 12/09/2004 3:06:29 AM PST by Rockingham
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To: Mike10542

bookmark for latter


142 posted on 12/09/2004 3:22:11 AM PST by Talking_Mouse (Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just... Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Mike10542
.......[I truly beleive in my Jewish fate(?) as I have been raised Jewish(?), but my mom is Christian(?)].......

Interesting.......

What do you have to say about the Hebrew Prophet Jonah, and The Book of Jonah?

:-)

143 posted on 12/09/2004 3:23:19 AM PST by maestro
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To: Mike10542
Mike10542 while everyone is arguing over what is the truth about scripture only Raygun has tried to answer your question. Let me fill in a little more about what many Evangelical Christians believe about the End Times.

The starting point for many Evangelical Christians of the End Times is the Rapture, when Christ comes, like a thief in the night, to take the Church away before the Wrath of God is pored out upon the world. After the Rapture, which according to which Evangelical Christian you talk to can include all the children all over the world who are not old enough to know right from wrong, people are pretty confused about what has just happened.

A ruler arises who deals with that crisis and brings peace and prosperity to the world. This ruler is the Antichrist. He sets up a world government, and for 3 1/2 years life is good - peace and prosperity.

During this 3 1/2 years 144,000 (12,000 from each of the 12 Tribes) Jewish people come to know Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. These 144,000 then go forth and evangelize the Jewish people. According to many Evangelical Christians the vast majority of people who come to believe in Jesus during the tribulation are Jewish. The 144,000 are sent to the House of Israel, not to the gentiles.

After the 3 1/2 years of peace there are 3 1/2 years of wrath. What starts this time is the Antichrist, in the rebuilt Temple, ( which is rebuilt before or after the rapture depending on which group you talk to) declares himself to be God. 1/2 to 3/4 of the human race dies during this 3 1/2 years. The earth is basically trashed: no pure water, nothing can grow, 1/3 of the light of the sun, moon and stars is reduced by smoke or pollution (again depending on who you talk to), massive earthquakes, the oceans are poisoned.

At the end of the 3 1/2 years the Antichrist and his forces are surrounding Jerusalem, ready to destroy it because it is the capital of the Jewish people. The 144,000 are there, and many of the people they evangelized, who have not died in the tribulation, are in Jerusalem. Jesus returns, with the armies of heaven, and destroyers the Antichrist and all of his armies. Then comes the 1000 year reign of Jesus on earth.

This scenario is the normally understood chain of events that many Evangelical Christians believe will happen at the End of Time. I am not going to argue the validity of this scenario with anyone.
144 posted on 12/09/2004 4:43:50 AM PST by Talking_Mouse (Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just... Thomas Jefferson)
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To: skellmeyer
Your statement in part A) illuminates a colossal ignorance on your part about the subject and subsequently about scriptural doctrine in general.

With respect to part B), your reference to Christ's statement is totally yanked out of context. John 4:22 is part of Jesus' discourse with the Samaritan woman at the well (John 4:6-30). The salient point of John 4:21,22 is Christ's dealing with the Samaritan's attempt at going off on a rabbit trail.

Jacob's Well is at the foot of Mount Gerizim toward which she pointed. Sanballat erected a temple on this mountain which was destroyed by John Hyrcanus B.C. 129. Abraham (Ge 12:7) and Jacob (Ge 33:20) set up altars at Shechem. On Gerizim were proclaimed the blessings recorded in De 28:1-68. The Samaritan Pentateuch records an altar set up on Gerizim that is on Ebal (over 200 feet higher than Gerizim) in the Hebrew (De 27:4). The Samaritans held that Abraham offered up Isaac on Gerizim. The Samaritans kept up this worship on this mountain and a handful do it still. The woman felt that by raising this theological wrangle she would turn the attention of Jesus away from herself and perhaps get some light on the famous controversy.

Christ had just shocked and embaressed the living crap out of the woman in v18 (so as usually is done today by people who can't argue the facts, they attempt to change the subject). This is also an excellent example of how to deal with people like that when one is witnessing to them.

Anyways, Christ's response in v21 intimated that the worship of God will be emancipated from bondage to place (the temple). Both Jews and Samaritans are wrong as to the "necessity" for that. Jesus told this sinful woman one of his greatest truths with that statement.

In v22 Jesus answers her attempt at diversion directly. The Samaritans rejected the prophets and the Psalms and so cut themselves off from the fuller knowledge of God. Jesus is a Jew as he fully recognizes (Mt 15:24). The Jews, as the chosen people, had fuller revelations of God (Ps 147:19; Ro 9:3-5). But even so the Jews as a whole failed to recognize God in Christ (Josh 1:11,18; 7:26). For salvation is from the Jews (hoti hê sôtêria ek tôn Ioudaiôn estin). "The salvation," the Messianic salvation which had long been the hope and guiding star of the chosen people (Lk 1:69,71,77; Ac 13:26,47). It was for the whole world (Jn 3:17), but it comes "out of" (ek) the Jews. This tremendous fact should never be forgotten, however unworthy the Jews may have proved of their privilege. The Messiah, God's Son, was a Jew.

And with respect to part C), "The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus" (#674 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church), I'm absolutely baffled and flabbergasted how the Roman Catholic Church derives that doctrine cited in #647 from the scripture cited in the footnotes. The first footnote to #647 (569) refers to Romans 11:20-26. Romans 11:20-26 is Paul's warning to the Gentile's in Rome, not to boast because of their privleges, lest they fall under condemnation. The condemnation that he was referencing was God's treatment of Israel (Rm 10:19-11:12), specifically with respect to the Jews stiff-neckedness and rejection of the Gospel. And so since God's chosen people were passed over, and salvation is come unto Gentiles (v11,12).

In Rm 11:26 Paul refers to "the Deliverer", making reference to something that was written in the Old Testament: Ps 14:7 and Isa 59:20,21. The footnote to the latter part of #637 of the Roman Catholic Catechism that drives this point home: Romans 11:12, 25. Paul is telling the Romans that the Jews would be blind until the "fullness of the Gentiles came." Cross references to this time are found in Lk 21:24 and Re 7:9. Clearly what scripture is intimating, that the Jews would remain blind until Christ comes again, but when he does return, they'll see the error of their ways and be saved (just like the Gentiles until then).

Your entire point is demonstrative of fundementaly unsound doctrine premised upon exremely sloppy hermeneutic.

145 posted on 12/09/2004 4:58:25 AM PST by raygun
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To: raygun
D'oh. My rebutal respecting part C) has several transposition errors:

"#647 from the scripture cited in the footnotes. The first footnote to #647" - substitute #647 with #674.

"The footnote to the latter part of #637 of the Roman Catholic Catechism" - substitute #637 with #674. Furthermore, the footnote for the last part of #674 is 572 (Rm 11:12,25).

146 posted on 12/09/2004 5:12:55 AM PST by raygun
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To: skellmeyer

Bump!


147 posted on 12/09/2004 5:22:03 AM PST by AlbionGirl
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To: kosta50

I like that prayer.

Will have to copy it off and print it out.


148 posted on 12/09/2004 5:41:11 AM PST by redgolum (Molon labe)
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To: kosta50

Are you Russian Orthodox?


149 posted on 12/09/2004 5:52:05 AM PST by Quinotto (On matters of style,swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: backhoe

So according to you, what gives more weight to an argument aren't contents but the length of one's membership to FR.


150 posted on 12/09/2004 5:54:47 AM PST by Quinotto (On matters of style,swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
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