Posted on 12/08/2004 11:08:38 PM PST by Mike10542
Yikes, just getting back to this thread. A lot of discussion since my question. Can't really keep up right now, but will save for re-read later. MarMema, it seems your heart, like many other good hearts wishes for God to smile on all good men, even those outside of "the church". I think there are many of us who feel this way, including a few church leaders. However, it is difficult to reconcile that inclusivist thinking with actual church doctrine. I admit i know very little about the Eastern Orthodox church. It just seems to me that when it comes down to the nitty gritty, Constantinian Christianity, is exclusive. I think that thinking ("only Christians are saved" )comes more from the doctrine of the church than it does from the Bible. However, i also recognize the exclusivist claims put in Jesus' mouth by the writer of the 4th gospel. (Noteworthy that those claims are no where in the earliest gospels of Matthew, Mark or Luke.) And once again, i just don't see Jesus and the Constantinian church as having the same focus.
A while back an article came out saying that the Vatican said the Jewish wait for the messiah was valid. (I will see if i can dig it up) What is/was the Orthodox take on this subject?
Heres the link to the article i just mentioned in my previous post. Just wondered if any of you knew of the Eastern Orthodox take on it.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/683007/posts
whoops forgot to ping you to above post.
Kolo, I did read your link and I am sorry to tell you that I didn't see anything new, save for some names I never heard of before. This debate took place over thirty years ago, and nothing has changed.
Let's just list some of the points I was making:
As for the conservative Russian side of the Church (which is 9/10 of all Orthodox in this world), which refused to yield to ecumenism, it is not the cause of the eventual schism inside the Church. Ecumenism is. If the Church becomes polarized, it will fracture and its small bits and pieces will be absorbed like the rest of the Eastern-rite churches have been, and will become peripheral and mostly invisible satellites of the mother ship. The Pope is not humiliating himself in front of Catholics by taking the barbs from various Orthodox officials for no reason whatsoever. He knows very well that in his humility he is fracturing the arch rival that stood steadfast for 1,000 years as the defender of one, true, catholic and apostolic Church. Ecumenism is a Trojan horse. It will accomplish that which no other assault could. It will destroy from within.
As for your suggestion that perhaps I should leave the [official] Church, that is already a fact because I neither agree with its un-Christian exclusivity, nor with its liberal wing's naive peddling of ecumenism. I am for a more liberal and Christian acceptance of others, but not for compromising in what constitutes then faith defined by the Councils.
More importantly, it is not up to the Church officials to decide whether I belong to the Church of God or not. I do not recognize their authority or their ability to exclude me from God. They don't have that power, no matter or authority.
I love the Church because of its worship, which is not in itself sacred or holy, as an artistic expression of love for God, put together as the most elegant supper for the most glorious occasion. The Church does not give me my faith and consequently does not decide if God will have mercy on me, a sinner, or not. The Church is overflowing with sinners.
errata: doesn't butch up (?) == doesn't live up to
It's valid only in the narrow sense that the messiah is coming again, but to put that forward as an argument that Jews are not called to convert, or that the Church is not called to evangelise them, is dishonest. I know there are many highly placed prelates who voice this opinion, perhaps because they like to think themselves fine fellows and see themselves smiled upon by the world. But this is not authentic Catholic doctrine.
I have never read anything quite like this from an Orthodox writer.
It's not likely you'd get an official comment from us on this kind of thing. Probably because there's nothing much to say about it.
The Eucharist is a symbol of Unity inasmuch as we all partake and become united through Him. It is above denominations. This is what Luther was trying to convey to the Church, when he said there is no salvation outside of Christ and not the Church.
We don't differ in our image of Christ from Catholics and Protestants. I can see the Eucharistic split with Monophysites, yet we can use economy with them but not with those who see Christ just as we do, especially the Catholics!
What is the Church protecting by denying the Eucharist to the Catholics or even the Protestants who are willing to partake of it? The Church teaches that partaking falsely of the Eucharist will not be judged lightly, yet it cannot apply the same rule to the non-Orthodox?
The truth is, Kolo, that those who are believers will receive the Gifts properly no matter what church they belong to. In that, there will be a Union of all Christians regardless of the denominations in spite of the roadblock placed before them. For God knows and doesn't need us to protect Him from fraud.
Denying the Eucharist to a whole group of people because they believe in the same Lord Jesus Christ as we do but do not cross the same way as we do is in effect saying they are "unworthy of it." We reiterate that every time we find it necessary to chrismate those "heretics" before they can become worthy members of God's Communion.
Thus the Eucharist is not the ultimate physical symbol of actual Unity (because we know that some take it in an unworthy manner), but rather a physical weapon the Church has used to separate, punish and scare people with. That, to me, is very un-Christian. Did not Jesus help the Canaanite woman? Jews were not allowed to mix with Canaanites, yet He showed us that in God there are no such divisions.
If you don't believe, as I don't, that Jesus would have denied that menstruating medieval Russian woman His salvific grace for three years (as her priest did) because she was "unclean" in His church, then you and I both know that the Church committed a sin in His name, and desecrated Eucharist by using it as a tool for punishment.
We can sugar-coat all these issues but the bottom line is clear: the Church is good at preaching and teaching, but not living in Christ.
In my eyes, you really are in no position to make those claims since you don't attend an Orthodox church currently and are not part of a parish. Being part of a parish is an integral part of "becoming Orthodox". We are saved as a community. Where is your community?
For Orthodox Christians, the Eucharist is a visible sign of unity; to receive the Eucharist in a community to which one does not belong is improper. If one does not accept all that the Church believes and teaches and worships, one cannot make a visible sign of unity with it. The Eucharist is the result of unity, not the means by which unity is achieved. While many non-Orthodox see this as a sign that the Orthodox Church excludes non-Orthodox from the Eucharist, in reality the opposite is true. Because a non-Orthodox individual has chosen not to embrace all that Orthodox Christianity holds, the non-Orthodox individual makes it impossible for an Orthodox priest to offer him or her communion. It is not so much a matter of Orthodoxy excluding non-Orthodox as it is the non-Orthodox making it impossible for the Orthodox to offer the Eucharist.
From the OCA website, which I neglected to include in my above post...
Kosta I sincerely doubt that the priest ( not the church) committed a sin in His name. I say it this way because I admit that it is not my place to determine this anyway....nor is it yours, even if you think so.
What happens in life is that sometimes people make mistakes. You would throw the entire world of bathwater out the window for one bubble you don't like.
The biggest problem with Orthodoxy today is that far too many people become much like you seem to be recently. Looking for perfection outside themselves but forgetting to glance occasionally in the mirror and see their own imperfections.
Some have had experiences in Orthodox churches which did not leave one with great feelings afterward. But most of us remember that we also have contributed to the pollution of sin in the world, and we get back up and try again.
I personally do not go to church to look around and say, "Oh, look at the perfect people here". I personally see and hear priests who come out from the altar and bow to the parishioners asking forgiveness for their sins. I personally had one experience with a priest where we spoke harshly to each other ( though nothing compared to most of the threads here on a daily basis) and we both forgave each other.
It's a boatload of people working toward the same goal, all sinners, even the clergy. What happens for me, and what I suspect you are seriously in need of and lacking, is that I experience a random event or situation where I feel certain that God is expressing love toward me through another parishioner. Or I create a faux pas in conversation and people at church overlook it, change the topic, or laugh and hug me in spite of it. Or a tension arises over something at a time when people are stressed, and we both almost snap at each other, but we restrain ourselves and solidly commit to staying loving in our behaviors.
These are the sparks of divine love which can be tasted here, in this life, and in due time, I believe they become the fabric of our community life.
Additionally they are fuel, important fuel. Because they somehow reproduce themselves. After 'enough' of these sparks, a person at church insults me or creates their own faux pas, and I am now prepared to overlook or laugh with them about it.
Being Orthodox truly changes us, slowly but surely over time. A big part of that change takes place in a community parish. We need to attend and be part of that community in order to grow.
You have fallen into what I think of as Gruschenka's territory. You need healing, imo, and badly.
Awhile back you gave me some definitions of what the church is. I prefer the definition from Khomiakov, who said that the church is the bond of unity among us. If Alexy is correct in his sobornost-biased definition, then you are pretty much in an impossible position - without a parish, without a community, and without the sacrament about which you speak so often.
The Church does not give us faith. Church gives us a religion -- a human organization built around faith. It is an exclusive club. I do not mean that in a derogatory manner.
The Church does not save us. God does.
The Church merely means a congregation of the faithful. Nothing else. When our Savior established the Church, He established it as a cornerstone around which the faithful will gather.
We are a community -- not in denomination but in Christ, not in a physical church, your locale, but universal, catholic, and in Spirit. You ask me where is my community? My community is with Christ. He is with me and I am with Him wherever I may be and all the times.
Christ does not save the Orthodox because they go to church every Sunday or because they are members of an Orthodox community. He saves Roman Catholics and Protestants and whoever He chooses for all the just and merciful reasons.
The Eucharist is not a monopoly of the Orthodox.
Why am I Orthodox? Because I believe Orthodox theology is closer to the the truth than others. I believe that not because I have "Orthodox" stamped on my forehead, but because in my limited human capacity, the Orthodox theology simply (there is your experiential faith!) "feels" orthodox. It is faith, after all!
I am Orthodox because I love Orthodox worship. To me it is like an exquisite dinner table prepared for the most important Guest, with artistry and reverence for God that comes straight from the heart and soul.
As far as not being in a position to "become Orthodox" I am glad that I am not bound and enslaved by outwardly and physical things that "prove" my Orthodoxy, but rather know inwardly the love of God.
"To me it is like an exquisite dinner table prepared for the most important Guest, with artistry and reverence for God that comes straight from the heart and soul."
Brought tears to my eyes. That's how I used to feel about the Anglican church. Exactly.
So, what happened?
Liberalism happened.
I understand.
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