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Question to Christians From a Jewish Friend
December 9, 2004 | Michael Katz

Posted on 12/08/2004 11:08:38 PM PST by Mike10542

Hey fellow freepers, having been swept up in the battle of conservatives first liberals and believers in God vs. non-beleivers I clearly have chosen the right side here (hence me writing on Free Republic). The alignment of Jews like myself and many fellow Christians is one that I feel is very necesary to win the war against evil and have peace in our time. Although I choose to ignore all the leftists and others who try to break up this loving partnership by saying "They are only on your side becuase they want the Jews in control of Jerusalem so Christ returns," I am looking to explore what the Bible really teaches about the Jewish fate from the Christian perspective. It is hard to find what the majority opinion is because the internet is, well, the internet. What I have made out so far is that during rapture I beleive 2/3's of Jews are killed, but one third survive. So my questions are:

1) What do the 2/3's of Jews die from (war, just happens????)

2) What happens to the remaning 1/3 of Jews after they survive?

3) Do any of this remaining 1/3 of Jews make it past the final judgement of God (some interpertations say no, others say the remaining Jews are allowed to pass once accepting God and I think Christ)

I truly beleive in my Jewish fate as I have been raised Jewish, but my mom is Christian. So each religion I respect and believe are good. Ultimately, I hope us Jews and Christians both make it together to the promised land (and only the Muslims are sent to hell!)

Thanks for all your answers. Also, feel free to direct me to anywhere where I can learn more about this subject.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: endtimes; prophecy; rapture
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To: Bandaneira

Take your word for it? No thanks. I'll take the word of God.


51 posted on 12/08/2004 11:55:23 PM PST by texasflower (Liberty can change habits. ~ President George W. Bush 10/08/04)
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To: Oschisms

Peace between the nations is possible.


52 posted on 12/08/2004 11:55:33 PM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: Mike10542
Well, you want my 2 cents? ( see profile for further info )

Jews are God's people, and so are Christians. At the end of time, I think ( and hope ) He will slap you on the back, and say "well done." I don't think minor theological difference matter much to a being so vastly higher than ourselves.

53 posted on 12/08/2004 11:55:34 PM PST by backhoe (-30-)
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To: texasflower

You'll see what unfolds over the next few months.


54 posted on 12/08/2004 11:56:18 PM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: Bandaneira

Except Jesus is not an intermediary to connect to a "higher power," he is one of the three equal persons of the Trinity.


55 posted on 12/08/2004 11:57:58 PM PST by Nathaniel Fischer
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To: Bandaneira

What he means Mike, is that levitt is probably a bullseye.


56 posted on 12/08/2004 11:59:20 PM PST by loboinok (GUN CONTROL IS HITTING WHAT YOU AIM AT.)
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To: Bandaneira
"carpenter"? "wonder boy"?

I don't care what you believe, but kindly show some respect for our beliefs.

57 posted on 12/08/2004 11:59:23 PM PST by Smokin' Joe (New member of the third temple demolition committee)
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To: Nathaniel Fischer
Which one of the following sects best approximates your belief system/frame of reference ?

(1) Roman Catholic
(2) Evangelical
(3) Pentecostal
(4) Christian Scientist
(5) Quaker
(6) Lutheran
(7) Church of England
(8) Eastern Orthodox
(9) Coptic
(10) Brethren
(11) Amish
(12) House of Yahweh
(13) Unitarian
(14) Baptist
(15) Presbyterian
(16) Other Christian Sect
58 posted on 12/09/2004 12:02:01 AM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: Bandaneira

Yeah. Right.

You are a very strange person.

Like I said, I trust in the world of God, not a nutcase on FR.


59 posted on 12/09/2004 12:03:25 AM PST by texasflower (Liberty can change habits. ~ President George W. Bush 10/08/04)
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To: Smokin' Joe
Poor conceptual models of reality can lead to poor actions, just as bad thinking can lead to bad actions. He was a carpenter and many christians see him as the wonder-boy so both terms I used are not pejoratives.
60 posted on 12/09/2004 12:06:33 AM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: Bandaneira

WE already know what is unfolding and WE know how to recognize his cheerleaders and minions.


61 posted on 12/09/2004 12:07:48 AM PST by loboinok (GUN CONTROL IS HITTING WHAT YOU AIM AT.)
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To: texasflower

Do you want a major war to happen in the next few months so that the your messiah will re-appear ?

Very simple question.

Yes or No


62 posted on 12/09/2004 12:08:14 AM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: Bandaneira

Armagedden (the plains of Megido). Unless you did an intentional pun that I did not get.


63 posted on 12/09/2004 12:09:44 AM PST by Frumious Bandersnatch
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To: aquila48

Was the plumbing involved yours or your house's?


64 posted on 12/09/2004 12:09:55 AM PST by BJClinton (Socialism is the heroin of the intellectual.)
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To: Frumious Bandersnatch

Yes, it was an international, sorry intentional pun... :)


65 posted on 12/09/2004 12:10:53 AM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: Mike10542
A) Most Christians do not believe in the rapture. NONE of the Christian churches that have any kind of liturgy regard it as anything except a heresy (so Methodists, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Catholics, etc. all regard it as heretical). Even those Christian churches which do not have liturgy do not all believe in it. Those that do are not united on what the rapture is or when it happens.

The entire rapture idea has been around for less than 200 years - it was invented by a Scottish pastor in the early 1800's who was excommunicated for heresy. He wrote the study notes to the Scofield Bible, which became quite popular in America and that Bible spread the idea in the US. Europeans have largely never heard of it and the rest of the world ignores it even more deeply. It's really just an American nutcase kind of thing.

If it were not for the Left Behind novels (which are about as well-researched as Dan Brown's The DA Vinci Code, which is to say, they aren't, the rapture concept would be pretty well unknown in this country too. Ignore the rapture - it's just a bunch of well-meaning ignorant people taking Scripture verses out of context.

B) Paul's letter to the Romans insists that Gentile Christians are only saved because we are grafted onto the source of salvation, Jewish Christians (Romans 11). Christ Himself testified that salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22). Christianity is the completion of Judaism, and Judaism is the source of Christianity.

C) Catholics know "The glorious Messiah's coming is suspended at every moment of history until his recognition by "all Israel", for "a hardening has come upon part of Israel" in their "unbelief" toward Jesus" (#674 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church). The full inclusion of the Jews in the Messiah's salvation is necessary for the Second Coming.

66 posted on 12/09/2004 12:11:22 AM PST by skellmeyer
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To: Mike10542

I believe that the Jewish people are...exempt if you will because they are the chosen people. Besides, the rapture is not about killing the non-believers, it's about bringing the true believers to God.


67 posted on 12/09/2004 12:11:52 AM PST by Quinotto (On matters of style,swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Bandaneira

You remind me of some entity out of the book "The Screwtape Letters" But you are not even as good as Wormwood.


68 posted on 12/09/2004 12:13:32 AM PST by therut
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To: Bandaneira

Which one of the following sects best approximates your belief system/frame of reference ?

(1) Roman Catholic
(2) Evangelical
(3) Pentecostal
(4) Christian Scientist
(5) Quaker
(6) Lutheran
(7) Church of England
(8) Eastern Orthodox
(9) Coptic
(10) Brethren
(11) Amish
(12) House of Yahweh
(13) Unitarian
(14) Baptist
(15) Presbyterian
(16) Other Christian Sect

(17) Child of THE KING OF KINGS


69 posted on 12/09/2004 12:15:03 AM PST by loboinok (GUN CONTROL IS HITTING WHAT YOU AIM AT.)
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To: Bandaneira

Hal Lindsay has made all kinds of predictions that never came true. So please do not use Hal Lindsay as a source, go and study to see what your bible reallly says.


70 posted on 12/09/2004 12:17:11 AM PST by tessalu
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To: Quinotto

Wow, freepers are really helping me out. One thing, though I forget who wrote it, but I don't think any Christian wishes for war, they wish simply for what God intends. So I think it would be wrong to simply say "they want a huge war" so Christ can return," they simply want what they beleive God has laid out.


71 posted on 12/09/2004 12:17:22 AM PST by Mike10542
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To: Bandaneira

No, most Christians don't see Jesus as a "wonder-boy." I can think of a number of greater terms that better describe him, such as "King of Kings," "savior of the world," etc.


72 posted on 12/09/2004 12:18:23 AM PST by Nathaniel Fischer
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To: BJClinton

The house.... I think.


73 posted on 12/09/2004 12:19:22 AM PST by aquila48
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To: Mike10542

I have a different perspective on this.

One of my parents was Jewish, the other Christian.

The fact that my father married a "shikse" caused the Jewish side of the family to disown my father.

The fact that my mother married a Jew drove the Christian side of the family into an equal panic.

What they overlooked, was that there was an innocent child involved.

I will be waiting for all of them in Hell, because MY God has promised me they will all go there - every one of them, for their arrogance and intolerance and religious self-righteousness.

There, they will have *me* to contend with.

Deal with it.


74 posted on 12/09/2004 12:19:52 AM PST by fire_eye (Socialism is the opiate of academia.)
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To: Nathaniel Fischer

I am Jewish like you, but I think you are out of line to demonize Christianity the way some of your posts do. You have to respect all beliefs, especially Christians who are in fact descendants of Judiasm (after all Jesus was a Jew).


75 posted on 12/09/2004 12:21:54 AM PST by Mike10542
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To: Bandaneira

I'm Christian Reformed (Calvinistic), which would make me closest to a conservative (15) Presbyterian on you list. BTW, Unitarian doesn't really belong there, since it's really a church of secularism, rather than a Christian church.


76 posted on 12/09/2004 12:22:22 AM PST by Nathaniel Fischer
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To: Bandaneira
Here's my bet...if the "RAPTRURE" doesn't happen in eight months (you think the second coming will happen in the next 8 months? ROTFLMSO!),you leave FR forever. K?

If it happens,in the next 8 months,none of us will be posting after that,so I don't have to promise to leave,should it happen. ;^)

77 posted on 12/09/2004 12:25:17 AM PST by nopardons
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To: therut
How you can associate one of C.S.Lewis's story's with me criticizing the "We want I'm-A-Geddin Now so our Messiah will Return" crowd is remarkable.

I have heard of lateral thinking but the connections you are trying to make don't add up. Ambitious analogies with a high degree of difficulty should not be attempted by the under-prepared. Please note also, I am a human being, not an entity.
78 posted on 12/09/2004 12:27:19 AM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: Bandaneira

It doesn't say anywhere that a major war will be required.

It says NO ONE KNOWS THE TIME OR PLACE.

Your name isn't anywhere in there as an exception.


79 posted on 12/09/2004 12:28:00 AM PST by texasflower (Liberty can change habits. ~ President George W. Bush 10/08/04)
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To: Mike10542

Here are the relevant verses ...

And it shall come to pass, [that] in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off [and] die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It [is] my people: and they shall say, The LORD [is] my God.
ZECHARIAH 13:8-9

...I suspect they will have faith in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and Messiah.

The bottom line on why Christianity is true, is that the Bible says what happens thousands of years before it happens. Please see http://www.yfiles.com/y3nf.html


80 posted on 12/09/2004 12:28:53 AM PST by ROTB
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To: Mike10542
The so called "RAPTURE" is only believed in by some Christians,so I wouldn't worry about it,if I were you.The rest of us believe in the Second Coming,the return of the Messiah,which no man knows the time it will take place and which is what GOD says,in the New Testament.

Since the Muslims don't believe in the Messiah,but Jews and Christians do,Muslims probably won't get taken to heaven,when HE comes.

81 posted on 12/09/2004 12:30:20 AM PST by nopardons
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To: nopardons
Read my posts NoPardons.

I certainly don't think the second coming will happen in the next eight months, or ever for that matter, so your bet is non-sensical and poorly thought out. If you were a bookmaker you would attract no punters.
82 posted on 12/09/2004 12:32:08 AM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: Dec31,1999

That's utter claptrap and a long banned poster used to post threads about the lost tribes all the time.Jim doesn't like this kind of tinfoil posted to Fr,which is WHY he was banned.


83 posted on 12/09/2004 12:32:57 AM PST by nopardons
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To: Mike10542; Bandaneira

You must have meant to reply to Bandaneira, because I never said I was Jewish (I'm Christian); I was responding to his comments in which he attacked Christian beliefs.


84 posted on 12/09/2004 12:34:06 AM PST by Nathaniel Fischer
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To: texasflower
I'm glad you don't want or believe in the need for a cataclysmic event to happen in the future for peace to prevail. Where we differ is on the identity of Moshiach. I believe that question will be resolved in the next eight months.
85 posted on 12/09/2004 12:34:50 AM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: skellmeyer
"Most Christians do not believe in the rapture". Don't be a meschuga, please! Actually, most of the Christians do believe in it. As far your belief on the rapture being...invented and being "just an American nutcase kind of a thing" makes me smile and realize how the Pilgrims were regarded at first by Europeans and by non-believers. Just because you don't happen to agree with this belief, doesn't make the ones who do, using your own words, nutcases. What it does make you is intolerant. Your arguments are based on European views of Christianity when we sure know all about Europe's faith in God and its kindness to the Jews.
Luke 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
Luke 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
I Thessalonians 4:17 Then they who are alive, shall be caught up together into the clouds with them who remain, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we be ever with the Lord.

86 posted on 12/09/2004 12:36:08 AM PST by Quinotto (On matters of style,swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: bayourod

>We believe that the Jews are the chosen people of God and
>that God will bless nations that aid Israel.

Notice how low France is going...


87 posted on 12/09/2004 12:36:46 AM PST by ROTB
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To: nopardons

I agree with you No Pardons on that Lost Tribe website's credibility.


88 posted on 12/09/2004 12:37:52 AM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: Bandaneira

What I want is whatever is preordained to happen to this world.

I believe in God, I believe Jesus is my Lord and Saviour and I do not have doubts or fear in what is going to happen.

I'm ready to go right now if that's what happened. Or in eight months if that is when it is to happen or 50 years from now.

What I don't believe in is you and your implied "psychic" babble.


89 posted on 12/09/2004 12:38:58 AM PST by texasflower (Liberty can change habits. ~ President George W. Bush 10/08/04)
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To: tessalu

I'm not using him as a source. I read the Pentateuch regularly.


90 posted on 12/09/2004 12:38:58 AM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: k2blader
HUNH?

That's not what all Christians believe.

91 posted on 12/09/2004 12:39:26 AM PST by nopardons
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To: Bandaneira
"Some evangelicals believe that a huge cataclysmic war must happen before their wonder boy will return."

I can understand if you are not a Christian or are a nonbeliever. But there are those of us who are Christians and believers, I have noticed during this thread that almost all of your posts are hostile and sarcastic to what we believe.

And in return you have been treated with respect and have not been treated poorly. I would appreciate that respect returned weather you agree with us or not. We are not preaching or expecting you to believe what we do. We are just answering a question from a fellow freeper. Maybe you Belong at the DU.
92 posted on 12/09/2004 12:41:04 AM PST by Anti-Christ is Hillary (John Kerry - Flip Flop shock and awe)
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To: Mike10542
Zechariah
13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine
hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in
the house of my friends.

13:7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is
my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the
sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little
ones.

13:8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two
parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left
therein.

13:9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them
as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call
on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and
they shall say, The LORD is my God.

This is Christ's return. The Jewish remnant recognize Jesus at his return
after Armageddon by His nail-pierced hands.
The remnant is saved to go through the millenial reign of Christ on Earth.

93 posted on 12/09/2004 12:41:10 AM PST by trickyricky
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To: texasflower

I sure heard you :D Amen!


94 posted on 12/09/2004 12:41:21 AM PST by Quinotto (On matters of style,swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Nathaniel Fischer

Has no one but me noticed Bandaneira's only purpose here is to disrupt the flow of the thread as various Christians attempt to answer Mike's question?

I invite you all to hit the abuse button as I have, so a legitimate question can be answered.


95 posted on 12/09/2004 12:41:34 AM PST by papertyger
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To: fire_eye
There are three participants in the creation of a child.

The Father. The Mother, and the Master of the Universe.

That's why some people have certain divine attributes which are not dependent upon their genes.

96 posted on 12/09/2004 12:42:01 AM PST by Bandaneira (The Third Temple/House for All Nations/World Peace Centre...Coming Soon...)
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To: Quinotto

It's very peaceful isn't it?


97 posted on 12/09/2004 12:44:21 AM PST by texasflower (Liberty can change habits. ~ President George W. Bush 10/08/04)
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To: Bandaneira
In Christ's case The Father and the Master of the Universe is one and the same. However, I think it's time for you to stop mocking Christianity, especially with Christmas around the corner.
98 posted on 12/09/2004 12:45:25 AM PST by Quinotto (On matters of style,swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
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To: nopardons
That's not what all Christians believe.

Yes it is. Christians recognise that nothing we can do is good enough to redeem ourselves, and that it is only through the grace of God that we can be saved.

99 posted on 12/09/2004 12:46:09 AM PST by Nathaniel Fischer
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To: texasflower

Indeed, it is. This is why people like Bandaneira need our understanding, patience and prayers. Afterall, Christ died for him too.


100 posted on 12/09/2004 12:46:27 AM PST by Quinotto (On matters of style,swim with the current,on matters of principle stand like a rock-Thomas Jefferson)
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