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‘Explosion’ of lay ministry following Vatican II has reshaped church
Archdiocese of Seattle ^ | December 9, 2004 | Stephen Kent

Posted on 12/13/2004 10:19:33 AM PST by Land of the Irish


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December 9, 2004



‘Explosion’ of lay ministry following Vatican II has reshaped church, says visitng theologian


By Stephen Kent

 

Father Thomas P. Rausch, with Archbishop Alex J. Brunett and Mary Cross, who directs the Office of Catholic Faith Formation, at Advent Ministry Day at St. Mary Magdalen Church in Everett.


 

EVERETT – The currents of renewal begun by Vatican II will continue reshaping Catholicism, a Jesuit theologian told a Dec. 2 gathering of pastors and pastoral staff.
In his presentation, “Vatican II Today and Tomorrow,” Father Thomas R. Rausch took note of the five-year vision plan for the archdiocese developed by the Archdiocesan Pastoral Council. “A Vision of Hope” was formally promulgated last month by Archbishop Alex J. Brunett.

“The statement is remarkably open,” said Father Rausch. “The document is honest – it raises some all but insoluble issues.”

Father Rausch, professor of theology at Loyola Marymount University in Los Angeles, has published 11 books and specializes in the areas of ecclesiology, ecumenism and the theology of the priesthood.

He spoke at Advent Ministry Days, an in-service enrichment program for staffs of parishes sponsored by Archbishop Brunett. Father Rausch also spoke at St. Ann Church in Tacoma on Dec 1 and St. Rose Church in Longview on Dec. 3.

The process initiated by the Second Vatican Council, which met 1963-1965, is not yet completed, he said, nor is it received in the same way by all persons.

“For some, we have come too far too fast,” he said. “Others are equally unhappy for opposite reasons.”

“For the vast majority, Vatican II belongs to history,” he said.

In his presentation, Father Rausch dealt with the image of the church, the role of bishops, the role of the laity, and ecumenism.

The image of the church as the People of God established by the council “is a far cry from the image of the church as the ‘Perfect Society’’ which suggests that it had nothing to learn from other societies,” said Father Rausch. The church is also imaged as a mystery and a pilgrim church.

“The church should be a sign of unity of the whole human family,” he said.

The Vatican II teaching on the role of bishops, especially collegiality, results in an ecclesiology of communion, he said.

“Bishops are not to be regarded as vicars of the Roman pontiff. Vatican II said that they, just as the pope, are also vicars of Christ.”

The church is “no longer understood as a papal monarchy but as episcopal collegiality,” said Father Rausch.

Vatican II brought a great new understanding to the role of the laity.
“From the time of the Council of Trent, the laity was reduced to being passive members,” he said, “their mission came only through the hierarchy.

The council’s teaching on the universal call to holiness means the laity share equally in the mission of Christ.

There has been an “explosion of ministry” as the result of Vatican II, he said.  The number of lay people formally preparing for full time ministry has more than doubled in the past nine years, he said. As a result, the church’s ministerial culture is becoming quite different, he said.

Father Rausch also noted the “declericization of theology.”

“Theology was done in seminaries,” he said. “There was no place where women could go for graduate work in theology as late as 1965 when Marquette University established the first doctorate program.

“Today, theology is being done by lay men and lay women, not priests,” he said.
The sex abuse crisis has given evidence of the need to give laity more input into the governance of the church.

Evangelization is a priority.

“Pope John Paul II has put it at the center of the understanding of the church and its mission,” he said.

The pope has called Christians to a new evangelization in areas where Christianity has declined as well as among refugees, migrants young people and those influenced by the mass media.

“What can we do to bring them home?” is the question he said.

“A very real question is whether the church is functioning in a collegial way,” he said. “Public criticism by members of the hierarchy is indicative of widespread dissatisfaction.”

Later, responding to a question from the floor about the cause of the dissatisfaction, Father Rausch said, “I think we’re at the end of a long pontificate. The reverence for the pontiff makes one reluctant to raise questions.”

Most members of the College of Cardinals, who eventually will be electors, are not members of the Vatican curia but are pastors as head of dioceses, he said.

“They are aware of the problems and will be looking for a pope who can handle them. Many are aware of the challenges the church is facing but would never address them publicly due to a reverence for this pope.”

Globalization, which has far outdistanced the ability of churches to address problems because of their own divisions, calls for a rethinking of ecumenism, he said.

“If ecumenism is not local, it will not be effective,” he said. Local churches can establish effective ecumenical commissions, and parishes can have ecumenical officers, he said. Denominations can join in common celebrations and give common witness in social issues. he said.

 
 


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic
KEYWORDS: archbishopbrunett; catholic; seattle; vcii
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The church is “no longer understood as a papal monarchy but as episcopal collegiality,” said Father Rausch.
1 posted on 12/13/2004 10:19:34 AM PST by Land of the Irish
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To: Akron Al; Alberta's Child; Andrew65; AniGrrl; apologia_pro_vita_sua; attagirl; BearWash; ...

Ping


2 posted on 12/13/2004 10:21:15 AM PST by Land of the Irish (Tradidi quod et accepi)
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To: Land of the Irish

The Church is neither the pope nor the bishops, though they are a part of the whole, the Church actually being the entire body of faithful, living and dead. This needs to be remembered. So too should we recall that ecclesiastical power in the hands of corrupt prelates leads to abuses which the faithful have an inherent right to resist.


3 posted on 12/13/2004 10:40:56 AM PST by ultima ratio
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To: Land of the Irish
The currents of renewal begun by Vatican II will continue reshaping Catholicism, a Jesuit theologian told a Dec. 2 gathering of pastors and pastoral staff.

The reshaping will continue until the Catholic Church is no longer recognizable.

4 posted on 12/13/2004 10:40:58 AM PST by Grey Ghost II
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To: Land of the Irish
TO: Cardinal William H. Keeler

Bishop Arthur J. Seratelli (Paterson NJ)

Bishop John J. Nevins (Venice FL)

Bishop Gerald Walsh (New York)

Bishop John Nienstedt (New Ulm)

All bishops of the USCCB

FROM: The Roman Catholic Faithful, Inc

. Recently, at the conclusion of one of your endless series of committee meetings (The Challenge of Mixed Marriage in American Life is Major Topic of U.S. Catholic-Jewish Consultation Committee), you issued the following statement:

The Consultation also discussed the state of Jewish-Catholic relations in the wake of the film, "The Passion of the Christ," which caused such deep and understandable concern within Jewish community world-wide. The film, it was noted, was in reality a modern version of the notorious medieval Passion Plays which so often over the centuries have triggered riots against the Jews of Europe. Happily, however, the film precipitated no such anti-Jewish violence. Rather, in many places it sparked discussions in which Catholics learned why Jews feared such dramatic depictions of the death of Jesus, and Jews learned that many Catholics today have taken to heart the teaching of the Second Vatican Council that the Jews collectively cannot be held responsible "then or now" for Jesus' death. It was noted as well that continuing work needs to be done among those who have not yet absorbed these official teachings of the Church.

Generally, we in the laity read your prodigious output of wordy, useless position statements and constant “pastoral” bloviating with a mixture of boredom and mild irritation. Occasionally, however, the U.S. Bishops come out with something that is so outrageous, so offensive, so truly malignant, that the laity cannot remain mute. And so it is with this, your latest piece of ecclesiastical drivel.

When we consider your words, we must reflect upon all that you have given the laity during the past several decades; to wit:

* You have destroyed our precious liturgy and replaced it with a quasi-heretical and saccharine floor show.

* You have corrupted our children with poisonous sex ed programs.

* You have allowed our children to be raped by perverted monsters in the clergy and have done everything in your power to cover up these crimes.

* You have destroyed our beautiful churches and Cathedrals and replaced them with ugly “churches” that resemble aircraft hangars or cement factories.

* You have squandered billions of dollars on useless or harmful “ministries” that are little more than glorified havens for left wing activists.

* You have persecuted holy and orthodox priests and nuns.

* You have denied priests their right to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass, a right which no bishop or pastor of the Church can ever take away.

* You have destroyed the faith of millions by promoting false catechesis.

* You have turned away worthy candidates for the priesthood because they accepted the perennial teachings of the Church or because they opposed homosexuality.

The collective evil committed by the American Bishops dwarfs any harm committed in the Enron scandal, yet none of you have been sent to jail.

And now, when a man like Mel Gibson comes along and tries to glorify Our Lord with a movie, when he risks his personal fortune and reputation because Our Lord is despised by the World, you miserable serpents not only do not support him, but join with those who condemn his courageous and beautiful effort. Well, to you bishops, and to all the bishops of the USCCB, the Roman Catholic Faithful responds:

The movie The Passion of the Christ has done more to uplift the human heart, to bring souls to Christ, to increase holiness, and to glorify Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, than all the USCCB committees, subcommittees, documents, pastorals, letters, faxes and speeches put together.

James Bendell

Roman Catholic Faithful

5 posted on 12/13/2004 11:33:31 AM PST by JesseHousman
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To: Land of the Irish
The church is also imaged as a mystery ...
Lumen Gentium asserts that the church’s organization and its charter is of divine origin. Collegiality, as used in Lumen Gentium, refers exclusively to that unique institution of the successors of the apostles, the bishops in union with the pope; they form the college, the collegium. One can reasonably say that just as Peter relates to his fellow apostles in the apostolic college as brothers and not as a sovereign to his subjects, and just as Jesus himself says that all will know you as my disciples because you do not lord it over each other as the gentiles do, that such is the norm in episcopal college, successor to the apostolic college. But to try to the notion of collegiality into a juridical hammer, a parliament of bishops, and then try to say that the parliamentary principle is the norm for every gathering and assembly in the Catholic Church is theologically false. It is a total misinterpretation of Lumen Gentium to to think that collegiality has to do with some populist notion of democracy.

What seems to be overlooked is that Chapter 2 of Lumen Gentium deals with the laity, Chapter 3 deals with the hierarchical church, but Chapter 1 deals with the mystery of the Church. In other words, the first defining description of the Church in Lumen Gentium, which is indisputedly the most important document of the council, is not the hierarchy, not the people of God, but the mystery of the Church as a communion of the whole: Christ Jesus, the pope, the bishops, the priests, the religious, the laity — all one mysterious Body of Christ.

6 posted on 12/13/2004 11:45:51 AM PST by eastsider
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To: Land of the Irish

Rausch essentially admits VII intended to and created a new church.

Anyone who believes we are in the midst of a renewal is either blind or complicit.


7 posted on 12/13/2004 11:53:43 AM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Grey Ghost II

These lay commitees, ministries, meddlers and wacked-out deacons have reshaped the Church in the way cancer reshapes a man's internal organs.


8 posted on 12/13/2004 12:04:06 PM PST by broadsword (When Islam creeps into a human society, oppression, misogyny and terror come hard on its heels.)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
Anyone who believes we are in the midst of a renewal is either blind or complicit.

Worth repeating.

9 posted on 12/13/2004 12:20:45 PM PST by Stubborn (It Is The Mass That Matters)
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To: JesseHousman

This hysterical letter will continue to marginalize RCF with the American bishops.


10 posted on 12/13/2004 12:24:00 PM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
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To: sinkspur

Welcome back!!!


11 posted on 12/13/2004 12:25:25 PM PST by eastsider
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To: eastsider

Thanks. I don't imagine I'll get many greetings like yours.


12 posted on 12/13/2004 12:28:05 PM PST by sinkspur ("It is a great day to be alive. I appreciate your gratitude." God Himself.)
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To: eastsider
Thanks Eastsider,it is disgusting to see how these theologians twist and spin.

I felt much more compelled to evangelize the world by imitating Christ after leaving the old Mass.

One nun once told us that "Ite,miss est" meant,"Go,the mass has ended now fed by the Boky,Blood,Soul and Divinity of Christ,now,go out and imitate Christ in the world".

I will say that I wondered about the length of her English interpretation of those three Latin words. Nonetheless,it made a lot of sense then and it still does.

Every one should arm themselves with the document from Vat II that states "Led by Peter,in union with Peter and never without Peter" when they attend these brainwashing sessions. It slows down the dialogue to a little slower than a snail's pace when with document in hand,one raises his hand and asks,"Father,what does this mean"?

We now have the Indult in Phoenix and I am always stricken at the Consecration when the priest says "This is the Mystery of Faith------" It is so powerful. When I have attended the New Order Mass with my son and his children the "Christ has died,Christ is risen,Christ will come again",stands as a pitiful substitute. IMO.

13 posted on 12/13/2004 12:44:23 PM PST by saradippity
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: sinkspur
Howdy...was wondering what happened to you!

And actually, I agree with you that the increasingly bitter tone of RCF will not help their cause.

On the other hand, much of the "explosion of lay ministry" is illicit. That should at least be recognized.

15 posted on 12/13/2004 1:24:18 PM PST by B Knotts
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To: JesseHousman

Grow up, sonny.


16 posted on 12/13/2004 1:26:20 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
Vatican II has been made the ultimate totem of Catholicism, while the teachings of 261 popes and 20 previous ecumenical councils have been marginalised. Until the pope acknowledges the problem — Vatican II — no cure is possible. Only by revisiting that aberration of the 1960s can the Barque of Peter regain an even keel.

Sonny Indeed!

How arrogant.

Appropriate handle for you though.

17 posted on 12/13/2004 1:32:30 PM PST by JesseHousman
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To: JesseHousman
Sonny, your post makes no sense.

You welcome Sinky back by posting that idiotic picture ... I left that sort of behaviour behind in about 4th grade ... which may well have been before you were born. If you want to disagree with him (I often do), do so intelligently. I think you're capable of it ... but your #14 tells me a whole lot more about you than it does either about Sinky or Pope John Paul II.

None of it good.

Grow up. You're making traditionalism look bad.

18 posted on 12/13/2004 1:37:08 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: saradippity
That translation of ite missa est might be the best I've heard. Without the expansion, the response to the standard translation -- "Go, the Mass has ended" -- comes off as a puckish "Thank God" ...
19 posted on 12/13/2004 1:45:23 PM PST by eastsider
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Comment #20 Removed by Moderator

To: JesseHousman
There's a right time and a wrong time for everything, sonny boy.

When you grow up, you may begin to understand that concept.

I hold out hope for you ...

Until then, at least learn to spell.

You may have the last word, if you like.

21 posted on 12/13/2004 1:55:24 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
You may have the last word, if you like.

Your honor, I am through with this witness.

22 posted on 12/13/2004 1:58:58 PM PST by JesseHousman
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To: JesseHousman
I am through with this witness.

You had better be.

23 posted on 12/13/2004 2:03:06 PM PST by Admin Moderator
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To: ArrogantBustard
Actually, the RCF letter would not make a difference in these people's thinking no matter when it was sent. There is no "right time" or "wrong time" in this case.
We should assume that the bishops and priests involved in the dismantling of the Church know well what they are doing. They will not be dissuaded by an admonishment or a reasoned argument.
But it is important to make open statements so that laity can be made more aware of what is going on. It is important to connect the dots.
24 posted on 12/13/2004 2:06:56 PM PST by charliemarlow
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To: charliemarlow

My only objection to the RCF letter is it's overbroad ... I agree: those bishops, priests, deacons, and sisters who are "the problem" won't be dissuaded by it. Those who are part of "the solution", though, shouldn't be included in the broadside.


25 posted on 12/13/2004 2:11:30 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
Well, I read again the list of asterisked charges and couldn't find any to disagree with.
I am concerned that, as obedient laity grasping at crumbs like the Indult, we are like Vichy French, if not outright collaborators.
26 posted on 12/13/2004 2:19:20 PM PST by charliemarlow
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To: charliemarlow
All bishops of the USCCB is, I think, overbroad.

"Most", I could support.

But not all.

27 posted on 12/13/2004 2:24:38 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
I understood the letter to be addressed to specific bishops and then the bishops' as their entity. Otherwise, it could have just said, "All US bishops."
Given the disgrace and disunity in dioceses and the loss of faith by "the man who used to be in the pews,"
it is fair to ask if a good bishop shouldn't withdraw from the USCCB. Certainly, it is hard to see any significant difference the non-bad bishops make.
I have heard it said the latest meeting was a bit more on target than others have been, but I don't recall why.
28 posted on 12/13/2004 2:40:33 PM PST by charliemarlow
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To: Land of the Irish

"Denominations can join in common celebrations"

Is this not the non-judgemental non-denominational religion of the new world order?


29 posted on 12/13/2004 3:23:18 PM PST by AskStPhilomena
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To: charliemarlow
it is fair to ask if a good bishop shouldn't withdraw from the USCCB

IIRC, the USCCB has no actual, canonical, authority or existence. If that's the case, withdrawing from it (and possibly forming a US Conference of Orthodox Catholic Bishops) would indeed seem worth considering.

30 posted on 12/13/2004 3:42:49 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: JesseHousman; AskStPhilomena; Land of the Irish; Canticle_of_Deborah

Having read that letter before, it is a very clear and concise statement of all to real charges aginst our apostate bishops, and against the USCCB itself.

Over the top? Not in the least. In fact, the temptation in write such a letter is to resort to even more rhetoric, and even the (very appropriate, in this case) use of expletives. Since our bishops have effectively defected from the faith of our fathers, and have taught nothing but butterflies and rainbows to our children - losing two generations of them to the faith - this letter is entirely justified.

By rights - in a kinder and gentler era - these ecclesiastical hooligans would be either executed for heresy/apostacy, or sentanced to a long period of enforced penance in a monastary on bread, water, and hard labor prayer & silence. In reperation for their sins in office, and for the good of their souls.

Sorry, but for any good Catholic - and certainly those with children to raise in the faith - the time for diplomacy and platitudes with these lewd buffoons in round collars must stop. In the name of God we must declare war on such traitorous prelates as these who sell Christ again for 30 pieces of silver, if we are to consider ourselves frineds of Christ. If they had any "right" to be treated with respect, they lost that a long time ago.

No, in my opinion it is high time that good, devout Catholics get mad, and do something constructive. It is precisely because it is considered politically incorrect to use "angry tones" in morally just criticism that the Church is in the shape it is in.

The house has been on fire for 40 years. Meek, subserviant politeness to the arsonists is neither appropriate, nor sane.


31 posted on 12/13/2004 4:38:50 PM PST by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux! St. Michael the Archangel defend us in battle!)
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To: sinkspur

"This hysterical letter will continue to marginalize RCF with the American bishops."

I also suspect that Christ was marginalized by the Jewish religious leadership when He cleansed the temple of the money changers.
RCF has always been marginalized with the American bishops.
As long as RCF continues to call a spade a spade, it will remain marginalized.
Two thirds or so of our bishops are like cockroaches who tend to scatter in the light (of truth).
Steve Brady and the RCF have done more to rid the Church of perverts than all of the bishops combined.


32 posted on 12/13/2004 5:00:43 PM PST by rogator
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To: Land of the Irish

"The number of lay people formally preparing for full time ministry has more than doubled in the past nine years, he said. As a result, the church’s ministerial culture is becoming quite different, he said."

I agree with him on this one.
Some years ago the lay "pastoral associate" with her theology degree from Seattle University, taught by his own Jesuit order, appeared in lieu of the pastor the night of my father-in-law's pre-funeral rosary.
To make a long story short, she didn't know how to say a rosary. Didn't know the mysteries, the words of all the prayers, or the sequence in which they are to be said.
It is my understanding that the Seattle diocese has recently replaced the pre-funeral rosary with a bible reading ceremony of some sort.
I can understand why.


33 posted on 12/13/2004 5:14:37 PM PST by rogator
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To: rogator
To make a long story short, she didn't know how to say a rosary.

Wow!

34 posted on 12/13/2004 5:26:51 PM PST by St.Chuck (Induimini Dominum Iesum Christum)
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To: rogator; Pio; pascendi; Maeve; murphE; Robert Drobot; Canticle_of_Deborah; AskStPhilomena; ...

Agreed.

Now - on a related consideration - let us ask who killed Jesus Christ? It becomes an important matter, as it shows who teh guys with the black hats in our western are....

We have before us a cast of various groups and characters - each with a a part to play in the drama, and a share of the guilt. But who is responsible. Who was the instigator.....the human one(s)? We realize that Satan entered into the hearts of those responsible. But that exonerates nobody, and does not answer the question.

The Jews? The share guilt.....as one week thay praised his triumphal entry into Jerusalem, and the next they were yelling for his death. Fickle......just like the laity today. Easily swayed into apostacy.

Judas? Certainly a prime culprit. He was one of Christ's chosen.....to be one of his first priests. But he saw it as more important to see Christ do his will, then for him to do Christ's will. So, being a disobedient priest, he sold out Christ for 30 pieces of silver. Just like many priests today.

Pilate? Roman soldiers? They were the state, and its legal forces. They cared nothing for Christ, but were coerced into killing him by others, who were anti Christian partisans. Today we have such anti Christian partisans in the state, and its legal system.

The Chief priests....elders of the Temple...the Sanhedrin?

Yes - finally we are getting close to the source. They wanted the death of Jesus because he and what he stood for was inimical to everything which they were and stood for. So they plotted to kill Jesus.....and use Judas (priests), and the Roman Governor (the state) to do their dirty work.

And what term can we use to describe those who plotted and ultimately orchestrated the death of Jesus Christ?

CLERGY? Yes......but more specifically the heirarchy....who wore headresses very reminiscent of BISHOPS!!!!!!!!!

There is your answer.


35 posted on 12/13/2004 5:28:33 PM PST by thor76 (Vade retro, Draco! Crux sacra sit mihi lux! St. Michael the Archangel defend us in battle!)
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To: thor76

Don't forget as Mel Gibson so aptly pointed out - all of us who committ sins.


36 posted on 12/13/2004 5:34:46 PM PST by rogator
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To: St.Chuck

"Wow!"

It was even worse than I have described it here.


37 posted on 12/13/2004 6:24:08 PM PST by rogator
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To: thor76
Sorry, but for any good Catholic - and certainly those with children to raise in the faith - the time for diplomacy and platitudes with these lewd buffoons in round collars must stop. In the name of God we must declare war on such traitorous prelates as these who sell Christ again for 30 pieces of silver, if we are to consider ourselves frineds of Christ.

I'm not sure how declaring war on people makes one a friend of Christ. And I'm no pollyanna when it comes to war.
38 posted on 12/13/2004 6:51:32 PM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: thor76; JesseHousman

I see disruption and chaos have returned to the religion forum with the reappearance of our favorite modernist.

Coincidence? I think not.


39 posted on 12/13/2004 7:08:53 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah; sinkspur

It would be polite to ping sinkspur when you speak of him. I'm assuming you were, but perhaps I was mistaken.


40 posted on 12/13/2004 7:18:35 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: sinkspur

It's the bishops who are becoming more and more marginalized. Their credibility is zilch.


41 posted on 12/13/2004 7:19:00 PM PST by ultima ratio
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To: Salvation

It would be even more polite not to assume.


42 posted on 12/13/2004 7:19:30 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Conservative til I die
I'm not sure how declaring war on people makes one a friend of Christ.

"I came not to bring peace, but a sword."

43 posted on 12/13/2004 7:20:22 PM PST by Loyalist
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To: saradippity

I give thanks each day that more and more evangelization is alive and well in the Catholic Church these days.

It's when we, as parishioners, go out and talk with former or lapsed Catholics and invite them back to the church that things happen -- good things such as these people coming back and participating in a Returning Catholics group or taking an RCIA class.

Priests can not do it all by themselves anymore. Nor can deacons. Nor can nuns.

My opinion only here -- all Catholics need to dig in, and go out and serve the Lord and others by bringing them back to the church or introducting them to the Catholic Church for the first time.


44 posted on 12/13/2004 7:24:06 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah
Awwww. Dust ups on the Religion Forum are fun! Its only when they get mean and juvenile that our friend the Admin Moderator has to do his business.

I myself am glad Mr. Sinkspur is back.
45 posted on 12/13/2004 7:25:20 PM PST by Lilllabettt
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah; sinkspur

Thank you for your answer. LOL!


46 posted on 12/13/2004 7:27:04 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Land of the Irish
Is anyone else annoyed by the term 'ministry?' Ministry this, and ministry that. Everyone and their second cousin's pet poodle is a minister of something. I think it's a sneaky way of making women "Ministers. Just like the priests."

Aside from that, it strikes me as cheesy. "Ministry." Ugh. Protestantish, am I right? Isn't the correct term, apostolate?
47 posted on 12/13/2004 7:28:54 PM PST by Lilllabettt
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To: Lilllabettt

Dollars to donuts if you line up abuse reports on a graph there would be a marked decrease over the last week.


48 posted on 12/13/2004 7:33:56 PM PST by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah

Knock it off.


49 posted on 12/13/2004 7:34:16 PM PST by Religion Moderator
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To: Canticle_of_Deborah

He lurks about in the shadows, then rushes out to cut and slash. He's a modernist alright.


50 posted on 12/14/2004 3:46:51 AM PST by JesseHousman
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