The Fad-Driven Church

The Plumbline ^ | Todd Wilken

[rwfromkansas]

I am glad my RP church isn't part of this fad culture. We stick to the tried and true.

I am happy to report that I visited my home PCUSA church yesterday, and I was thoroughly impressed. They ditched their woman associate pastor. They have a new pastor that is thoroughly conservative and orthodox, plus Reformed.

His prayers yesterday were beautiful.

[rwfromkansas]

Well, I go to the Psalms-only church, just like Jesus sang. :)

j/k. I am a big proponent of singing Psalms, since we are commanded to and barely any churches do it anymore. But, hymns are beautiful as well.

[rwfromkansas]

As well as some modern praise music.

[bondserv]

This guys worship music ushers you into the Throne Room!

Eoghan Heaslip

[k2blader]

I don't understand why some folks hate Rick Warren's book so much.

[connectthedots]

Envy.

[gamarob1]

Rick Warren is the most inspiring pastor of our time...provided one is dean of the Harvard Business School. He's turned "church success" (as opposed to expanding devotion to Christ) into a business methodology, completely divorced from the need for the Holy Spirit's direction and anointing. Uh huh. Except for the fact that 4,200 people accepted Jesus Christ into their lives in the last several weeks. God is using this church and moving through it. What many Christians do realize over a period of time (hopefully), is that God uses everything, and denouncing that which God uses, is unfruitful and divisive.

[Conservativegreatgrandma]

HER????

[gamarob1]

But I wouldn't expect a return to just hymns

Thanks be to God

[labette]

I don't understand why some folks hate Rick Warren's book so much.

Maybe we're not the brightest students in the class, but I don't understand either. Here's what I got out of "The Purpose Driven Life":
1. The Great Commission is a command, not a suggestion.
2. It is my responsibility to use the talent I have been given.
3. I may have to struggle some to determine what my talent even is.
4. Fellowship is good.
I could go on, but I don't see how this is bad. Perhaps those that do have never had to wonder if they really are following what God would have them do.

[Kenny Bunkport]

Let's see if his fruit stands the test of time.

Say what you want...Warren's methods smack of dependence upon the wisdom of man and the efforts of the flesh -- at least among those churches which purchase his product, take it out of the box, and try to emulate and impose it upon their own congregations.

[Kenny Bunkport]

All well and good, but where does Jesus Christ come in to what you gleaned from Rich Warren? Is He simply the *object* of our frantic religious activity, or is He the source, the author, and the power of what goes on in the church?

[gamarob1]

Let's see if his fruit stands the test of time.

Agreed. So far it's 25 years and counting, tens of thousands of saved souls, and 20,000,000 books sold teaching people that Jesus has a purposeful plan for their lives. Not bad so far.

Say what you want...Warren's methods smack of dependence upon the wisdom of man and the efforts of the flesh -- at least among those churches which purchase his product, take it out of the box, and try to emulate and impose it upon their own congregations

I don't know you, and I appreciate the discussion and opportunity to share insights, so don't take this the wrong way, but... you sort of sound like the Calvary Chapel people I used to hang out with. Everything they do is done the "right" way, and nobody else is really able or "true" to God. I got blasted out of that delusion, thank God my Father. Once I saw God using EVERYONE, the issue was a dead one.

[Kenny Bunkport]

I think you meant "jealousy," but it's really "envy" which has made Warren's book -- his whole package -- popular. Pastors want their churches to be just like Saddleback, so they buy into his program. Plus, following his pre-cooked, canned "40-Day" formula requires very little work, prayer, or effort from the church leader. Pass out the books, and let the small groups go.

[labette]

Not sure I completly understand your question,{post 32}.Will be back in a couple hours, I HAVE to leave.

[Kenny Bunkport]

Thanks for your balanced response (I usually get blasted by the Warren apologizers, in their purpose-driven Christian way), but I'm not a Calvary Chapel person, and never have been. Frankly, I know very little about Calvary Chapel and what it teaches. (And, BTW, I didn't suggest an alternative to Warren as "the right way.") I'm simply a Christian who has gotten weary of Christless preaching and teaching, and the uniquely American tendency to turn Christianity into a hyped-up enterprise.

As I said, let's see if Warren's efforts stand the test of time. While saved-souls is an appropriate "bottom-line," numbers of books sold doesn't impress me -- 1) because how many of his books were actually purchased by individuals rather than in bulk by churches who were implementing his program, and 2) one of the indications of the worldly, methodology-addicted church is "numbers." Personally, I've known scores of people who have done the "40-Days" program, and none of them have appreciably changed.

[connectthedots]

I meant envy. I don't know how long Saddleback has been in existence, but I think it is long enough that it can no longer be considered a 'fad'.

[gamarob1]

You're welcome for the balanced response. I don't get too emotional about these things, since usually there's good things for both sides to learn, and I never want to cut off the possibility of that.

I'm simply a Christian who has gotten weary of Christless preaching and teaching,

But the truth of the matter is, Warren does talk about sin, and Jesus Christ as the only solution to sin, in the PDL. In addition, the enitre goal of the book is the maturity of Christians, to accomplish a deeper walk with the Lord. This is why I don't see the justification for the attacks that have come from many (I'm not talking about you), but I do know that he's been attacked from the very beginning.

But he's made a good decision: don't try to impress the naysayers, and just keep doing his thing.

[pro610]

PDL/PDC also borrows from Eastern Mysticism using contemplative prayer and forms of yoga.

[Kenny Bunkport]

Labette, basically, I'm trying to make a distinction between law and grace; between legalism and faith; between flesh and Spirit; between works and abiding; between human sweat ("all for Jesus" of course) and divine unction (where the indwelling Spirit of Jesus Christ is the source and enabler of our efforts) -- a distinction where one begins to understand the difference between *His efforts* through us on our behalf, and our self-initiated efforts on His behalf. There's a universe of difference there.

And I'm not surprised if my comment or question is confusing, because I have found over the 30 years that I've been a Christian that very few teachers and preachers talk about these distinctions. And I think the church, or more accurately, the cause of Christ, suffers in this country because Christians have not been instructed and discipled in their walk to make a distinction between their efforts in the flesh, and the enpowerment/sufficiency of Christ to live His life through them. The concept of the abiding life in and of Christ is foreign to the American church because we're so "activity"-oriented. We're so activity-oriented that the pastor of the church I used to attend thought that calling an all-church prayer meeting was a waste of time, because nothing was accomplished during times of prayer. His attitude is shocking, but at least he candidly expressed what many Christians unconsciously think. And yet I've come to learn and understand and experience that prayer is simply dependence upon Christ, and aligning our thoughts and heart to His thoughts and heart. But Christians are too busy doing "God's work" and following "His purposes" to cultivate the inner life Christ planted in each of our spirits when we first receive Him. I'm not talking about sitting on our duffs and gazing with wonder into the face of Jesus for the rest of our lives, but that would be a good start, and learning to have fellowship with the abiding Spirit of Christ within us as the motivation and power of our actions as we walk through life (just as Jesus' fellowship with the Father was the motivation and power of His life on earth) is essential to living the Christian life.

And I would say this about finding one's purposes, and developing one's talents, in regard to service to God......what's important isn't always about "us" or "me." What I find from the Bible is that all I have to bring into the relationship is filthy rags. The only thing of value that is produced in my life are the products of Christ's working within and through me. But how do we distinguish between efforts done by us in the flesh, and those things which are accomplished through us by power of Christ's indwelling presence? Well, that's a good question, and we'd do well as a church (universal) to start learning how to make that distinction.

(And that's my basic beef with Rick Warren's material...and the myriad of other popular Christian material as well -- there is very little in it which leads Christians to begin to make the distinction between our efforts "for Him," and His efforts through us on His own behalf. And, again, if this concept is confusing, or this distinction seems trivial and unimportant, it's because grace, and faith, and Spirit, and abiding, and divine unction are not taught within mainstream American Christianity. We're in desperate need of revival on these counts.)