The Fad-Driven Church

It's a fad among those churches caught up in trying to replicate its methods and results.

And who christened Rick Warren the expert on "purpose," anyway? My wife points out that having an entire church spend 40-days pouring over Rick Warren's book isn't bad in and of it self, but that's really 40-days when the church could have been concentrating on something else. 2000 years of Christian teaching, and Rick Warren is the best we can come up with if we wish to spend 40-days of concentrated reading and studying? Why is that? I think it's because he crams a lot of lofty concepts into capsulized form. For example, he dedicates six pages -- SIX PAGES! -- to discussing how we grow as Christians. His approach is "Christianity For Dummies." I'm not trying to be insulting...I'm saying Rick Warren is a marketing genius who has struck upon the truth that the American Christian church will not tolerate the deep things of God.

There is nothing wrong or heretical in Warren's book -- nothing that I've been able to discern -- other than its approach, which appeals to our American impatience with depth, substance, and the long-haul. It's what Jacque Ellul warned about when he railed some 40 years ago about the rise of "technique"....that effectiveness and efficiency had become the twin values of our civilization, at the expense of all other values. But why am I bringing up Ellul? -- no Christian I know ever read him, or has the patience to understand his warnings.

But the truth of the matter is, Warren does talk about sin, and Jesus Christ as the only solution to sin, in the PDL.

How do I say this without losing you?....There is more to Christianity than simply "Jesus died for my sins." That sounds ungrateful at best, and heretical at worst. But Paul, in Rom. 5:10 (I'll quote it from the Amplified for emphasis) gave us the two aspects of the Christian life --

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, it is much more [certain], now that we are reconciled, that we shall be saved (daily delivered from sin's dominion) through His [resurrection] life. (Emphasis mine)

That we are sinners, that Christ died for our sins, that we accept His death and are redeemed and receive eternal life, is the door through which we enter the Christian life. Having now been reconciled, Paul said, we are now "save" (i.e., daily delivered from sin's dominion) by His resurrection life which He planted in our spirits when we were redeemed.

The evangelical church in America teaches a truncated gospel. What is generally ignored is the true saving of life of Christ -- living by the resurrection life and power of Christ in our daily walk. As someone once said, "Christ gave His life FOR us, that He might give His life TO us, in order that He might live his life THROUGH us." That I'm a sinner, and Christ died for my sin, is only the initial step. Most Christian teaching today goes like this: "Jesus died for your sins, and if you accept Him, He forgives you your sins, and gives you eternal life." And after that, it's all "do-this/do-that" for Him......Jesus has everything to do with our initial redemption, but seems to have very little to do with actually living the Christian life. That's the essence of the Christianity that is taught today. So, to say that Rick Warren expresses our need to accept Christ's death to take away our sin problem, is good, but doesn't go far enough.

Lack of the Holy Spirit the critics tell me? i contend that the Holy Spirit is no more or less attached to modern hymns than He was to 19th Revivalist Hymns, or Gregorian Chants, or Handel's Messiah. God operates as He will, and the musician is obligated to do all things as unto the Lord.

However, much of the spiritual music today, both in my Catholic Church and in the Protestant Churches is banal, profane, and gives more glory to ourselves than to God.

The oldies aren't goodies just because they're oldies. They're goodies because they're good.

I'm trying to make a distinction between law and grace; between legalism and faith; between flesh and Spirit; between works and abiding; between human sweat ("all for Jesus" of course) and divine unction (where the indwelling Spirit of Jesus Christ is the source and enabler of our efforts) -- a distinction where one begins to understand the difference between *His efforts* through us on our behalf, and our self-initiated efforts on His behalf. There's a universe of difference there.

I think you hit the proverbial nail on the head right here. There IS a world of difference between self-initated works "for Jesus", and works initiated and sustained by the Holy Spirit. Too many church people have the idea that if they do it "for Jesus", then it must be right. Many times the Holy Spirit works around, past, and in spite of all our activity to accomplish that which He wills, and Christians wind up taking the credit, and giving a little back to Him, but not realizing that their own works only kicked up a cloud of dust and confusion, which obscured what the Holy Spirit actually did. Jesus wants yielded vessels that can be used as He wills, rather than people who think they can "help Him out" with their activities, programs, and ideas. Americans are an independent lot anyway, and there is a fundamental belief that action is always necessary, when the Scriptures say that "they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles. They shall run and not be weary, they shall walk and not faint." (Isaiah 40:31)

I am skeptical of touting numbers of conversions, because I also know what Jesus said in the scriptures, "Many will say to Me in that Day, "Lord, Lord....and I will say I never knew you. Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity..."

Just because someone "walks the aisle" or prays the "sinner's prayer", it does not mean they have actually been born from above. Look for the fruits of salvation. A life that shows no change is a life that was never changed. Man can, by his own efforts, clean up his life for a while, but sooner or later, he will return to his old ways. Only a life changed by Christ, a life reborn from above, will remain changed and bear fruit.

No offense, but typically when I see people talking about the right "evidence" of being born from above, well of course it has to fall in line with what THEY deem as worthy of being the right "evidence".

Fortunately, God is much more, infinitely, more gracious than you or any man. More forgiving, more merciful, more able to fully redeem those for whom He died for.

I've also noticed a non-coincidental correlation between those who see someone leading a fruitful life for the kingdom, and suddenly finding everyone from everywhere saying "remember it says many will say Lord Lord in that day" blah blah blah... Typically I think it's jealousy that those being attacked are doing much, and the ones with the attacks are doing little. But since I don't know you, I can't confirm it. I can see what you say, however.

As far as the works from the Spirit, compared to the works from the flesh, indeed I have seen that God is again gracious and does much more, and works OUTSIDE OF THE BOX that most Christians create, which is why God has used the PDL to "offend" the modern-day pharisees ;)

God spoke through an ass, as the scripture explains quite vividly. Does this mean we should all start following asses in the hope that we can divine God's will for our lives and gain a closer relationship to our Lord and Savior?

Just because God works through someone or something does not mean he/it is worthy of following.

Many churches espousing heretical beliefs contain true Christians but it merely means that God does not work through men alone, but also miraculously through His Spirit. I don't intend to equate Rick Warren with heresy, but until I know more of his teaching, I will withhold judgment.

I finally made it back and have been reading your posts. I may study Jacque Ellul in the future, if possible.

In closing, if you can present any evidence where Warren has contradicted Scripture, especially the doctrine of salvation by faith alone, I think you should cite page and paragraph. I have not noticed any such evidence in the one book I have read. However, I admit I wasn't really looking for any discrepancy either.

I guess my point was that, we've departed from the simplicity of the Word of God. If someone is leading people to Christ (not to idol worship, as Balaam was doing, that's why he was CLEARLY, CLEARLY not of God, and therefore you can't compare Rick Warren to Balaam!), if someone is leading others to serve Jesus Christ, if someone is promoting the Bible... that should be a no-brainer.

Jesus said by their fruits you will know them. Rick Warren is exhibiting daily fruit unto the kingdom of Jesus Christ, therefore it should be clear, if, as I started this passage, we're keeping the SIMPLICITY that the Word of God is presented in, i.e., not overcomplcating it and over-intellectualizing it. That usually makes people think it's saying something that it is not.

No offense taken. I am making no judgment about any person's state of salvation other than what the Word teaches. The evidence is a changed life, a life lived by the Word of God, not in a list of outward actions to which one must either avoid or do. I understand what you're saying.

I was merely making the point that Jesus Himself indicated that there would be many who think they are "good Christians", and "do all the right things", but are not truly one of His. I don't believe that He was engaging in hyperbole or just trying to scare people with that statement. I take it to mean what it says. Unfortunately there are many who will not "make the cut" for the very reason Jesus said: "I never knew you".

I agree that God is much more gracious than we are toward those who name the name of Christ. What I object to is looking at all the outward trappings, results, etc., and saying that this or that work "must" be of God, because of all the results it obtains, and the numbers added. The proof of whether any work is of God is not outward results as we like to measure them, but if it is a work of the Holy Spirit, ordained and sustained by Him. Many times, what man looks on as a failure is the very thing that God is doing His greatest work through. God's ways are not ours, and I am skeptical of methods which have more in common with Wall Street and Madison Avenue than with God's Holy Word.

RE: #13

Where did you hear of the G12? Was it at your church or did Castellanos come and speak nearby?

The reason I ask is that I was on staff at a large "mega-church" in Louisiana for a few years, that later became THE G12 church in America.

We gave conferences and told all of the visiting pastors how great it was. The pastor basically lied through his teeth because the he wasn't about to admit what the G12 did to families (i.e., tore them apart) as a result of the increased number of meetings and time demands that came along with this heresy.

Numerous pastors, including myself, were either let go or quit because of the pain it was causing the people and the fact that we were viewed as "rebellious."

Rick Warren is the most inspiring pastor of our time...provided one is dean of the Harvard Business School. He's turned "church success" (as opposed to expanding devotion to Christ) into a business methodology, completely divorced from the need for the Holy Spirit's direction and anointing. Uh huh. Except for the fact that 4,200 people accepted Jesus Christ into their lives in the last several weeks. God is using this church and moving through it. What many Christians do realize over a period of time (hopefully), is that God uses everything, and denouncing that which God uses, is unfruitful and divisive.

Yes, I am one (as several above) who finds many of the current 'fads' incredibly superficial. BUT, these mega churches are having a positive introductory impact on their communities, successfully inviting thousands to "meet the Master." It is my sense that many (most) of these converts will move on to 'more meat' after a couple of years in these largely formulaic megachurches. But they are the functional equivalent to a semi-permanent Billy Graham Crusade for our time. And I think that, viewed as such, it is a good thing.

I belonged to one of these megachurches for about three years and found that, in the leadership of the church, the greatest continuing frustration was the inability to 'bridge' or 'grow' their huge (really huge) coterie of young believers into mature Christians. Most were moving on to other, more traditional churches after 2-4 years. And that too is a good thing.

I'm simply a Christian who has gotten weary of Christless preaching and teaching, and the uniquely American tendency to turn Christianity into a hyped-up enterprise.

Good words.

I believe one major reason Warren's book has done so well is that it centers on the "doctrine of me," or as some has called it, "meology." It goes right to the very heart of the consumeristic mentality that pervades America and her fellowships.

There's no talk of the true cost of discipleship (i.e., death to self) but rather how the unholy trinity of "me, myself and I" can feel good about myself.

Very similar experience to yours. I've had dinner with Cesar and Claudia on one of their trips here and he personally conducted our church's first encounter. My former pastor is now in Cesar's primary 12. I was in his 144 in a church of almost 3,000. I know which church you are talking about in Louisiana, and chances are you know which church I am from too. I know we had many discussions with "Larry".

I pulled my family out of our home church for exactly the reasons you stated and more. We had gone to the G12 format and soon thereafter, I began noticing error from the pulpit - nothing earth shattering but I've got a bit of the Berean in me and it made me sit straight up in my chair. Did some detailed studying during SOL and found significant errors in Castellanos' material and began asking questions. That was not appreciated at all, LOL! They blamed it on translation errors. Pastor and I began to eye each other with suspicion, which is not a good thing.

I finally left after Cesar pulled his coup d'etat in January and made all the G12 churches either kiss his ring or drop the "G12" franchise name.

It takes a lot to leave a home church, and our leaving sparked an exodus shortly after. There's still a bunch of fallout and each week at my new church, there is a family or two of G12 refugees, who my wife and I welcome warmly. There is a lot more to be said and light to be shined on this. Take a look at Factnet or freepmail me.

Excellent post,
One of the top posts I have read on the PDL/PDC as a matter of fact.
This movement puts its trust in too many human idea,s ,thats why they use elements of Psychology by Carl Jung such as Myers-Briggs personality profiling.
The trust should always be in the Holy Spirit because its bigger then anything Human.

This movement has become so large that it,s beyond being a fad,It needs too much money to sustain itself.
The only way it can do this is by adding more New Age human practices to keep its followers and hope to add others.

Warren has already reached out to New Age guru Ken Blanchard to help him with his Global training program.
Blanchard approves of borrowing from forms of Eastern Mysticism and humanism.

None of this should be surprise to those of us who have kept tabs on what this movement is doing.
Rick Warrens friend and mentor is Peter Drucker( the Human Potential movement leader and marketing expert}

What they are doing is using the General Systems Theory and inserting it into a religious movement.

I think (2 Corinthians 11:12-16) is a good example here.
What I am doing I shall continue to do,depriving at every turn those who look for a chance to say that in their much -vaunted ministry they work on the same terms as we do.such men are false apostles.They practice deceit in their disguise as apostles of Christ.
And little wonder!
For even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
It comes to no surprise that his ministries disguise themselves as ministers of the justice of God.
But their ends will correspond their deeds.

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