The Fad-Driven Church

The Plumbline ^ | Todd Wilken

[gamarob1]

Unfortunately there are many who will not "make the cut" for the very reason Jesus said: "I never knew you

I guess my beef with that is that usually that verse is brought up by some people even more often than the Gospel itself! (I'm not saying you are one of those)

What I object to is looking at all the outward trappings, results, etc., and saying that this or that work "must" be of God, because of all the results it obtains, and the numbers added

But after years of seeing things as you do, I now don't agree. Imagine it being the day of Pentecost, and Peter gives his sermon, and 3000 people accept the Lord that day. I wonder if some stood up and said, "Oh, this can't really be of God, it's TOO successful, I mean really, don't they know that Jesus will one day say to many, I never knew you?", or, "Ahh, they can't all be real, true conversions. You have to mean it from the heart! You have to really mean it and be sincere!" etc etc etc...

The naysayers always existed, I imagine, but what I don't see in scripture is Paul saying to everyone he led to the Lord, "now did you REALLY mean it when you believed???"

I found my own ministry to become more fruitful when I did the preaching/speaking, and TRUSTED the Lord to do the saving (i.e., I don't have to say "do you REALLY mean it enough?")

God's ways are not ours, and I am skeptical of methods which have more in common with Wall Street and Madison Avenue than with God's Holy Word.

My question to you then would be this: What about the PDL seems so Madison Avenue to you? The gospel is presented, people are told to abandon goals that don't have eternal significance, and Jesus is presented as the meaning of life. So where's Madison Avenue?

[gamarob1]

There's no talk of the true cost of discipleship (i.e., death to self) but rather how the unholy trinity of "me, myself and I" can feel good about myself.

Well that's just not true. The PDL talks about not wasting your time on goals that have no eternal value, and instead seeking God's plan for your life. That's layin' it down, friend ;)

Besides, I attend Saddleback on and off here in Orange County, and I can assure you, Rick Warren preaches to a bunch of Southern Orange Country rich people, that their worldly goods are worth nothing, instead it's the treasure in heaven that matters

[Rightly Biased]

The Gospel has and will not ever change but our society has and the way we reach them needs too.

I was reading a survey at www.lifeway.com the other day and it stated that as of 2003 more than half of the population of the US has had media influence (TV,Radio,internet,etc) over their entire life span and in just a few years 100% of the population will have had media influence thier whole lives.

How do we reach those people that are used to media influence and how it communicates to them?

In the days of old in Southern Baptist life (The late 50's and early 60's were the glory days of the SBC) it was "A million more in '54" (We made that goal) or in the 80's "Bold Mission Thrust"which was reaching every people group in the world with the gospel by 1990 (we didn't make that one)
The Church has the average attender for 3 hours a week: Sunday Am, Sunday Pm, and Wednesday night;that is all.Many will not even give that much. And notice I said attender.

How do we reach those for Christ that have a different way of taking in information and help them transform their sinful lives to a life striving for Holiness?


I am not for watering down any part of Gods Word but we need to reach all for Christ and do it well.

The question is How?

[kjam22]

A very good article. Pretty much right on target.

[kjam22]

I think sometimes the purpose gets confused. I mean, clearly we're commanded to reach the lost. But there's also a lot of text about ministering to the flock. Ministering to each other. I think that sometimes a local church can get so caught up in "reaching the lost" or maybe just growing or the sake of getting bigger, that they ignore the command to minister to their own.

Local television ran a deal a couple of weeks back about the new trend in churches in my area. Showed the rock bands, light shows, etc designed to communicate with today's modern society. And one of these pastors had a pretty telling statement. He said "if you grew up in a church or have been a christian for a long time, you probably won't like what we do in here". Doesn't that strike you as something of concern? When one may readily admit that mature christians won't like what a particular church does?

I think for a person to start a church that is built on the latest fad, and to attract all sorts of people for a variety of reasons.... well that's one thing.... but to take an existing church and change it to an environment that long time christians can't accept, and cause many to leave that particular church.... you know... I don't think that process is part of ministering to the flock.

I know the church leadership of these type of churches is convinced that the flock is the problem because they won't change. They won't do what "needs to be done". But that's not what I read in scripture. I read that the church leadership is charged with ministering to the flock. I think a pastor that takes on the roll of pastor of a church is first and foremost obligated to the health and wellbeing of it's members.

We are commanded to preach the gospel. We baptists used to believe that our part was to preach the word, and God's part was to reach and save them through the call of the Holy Spirit. I think to often now we think it's our methods that reach them.

I'm sure my opinion is influenced by a chruch that has lost about half of its membership in the past year because of some of the craziness that can come by chasing a fad driven consumer.

[Zechariah11]

I'm saying Rick Warren is a marketing genius who has struck upon the truth that the American Christian church will not tolerate the deep things of God.

A very good analysis.

[Zechariah11]

However, much of the spiritual music today, both in my Catholic Church and in the Protestant Churches is banal, profane, and gives more glory to ourselves than to God. You are so right.

[pro610]

****The question is how?****
Dr Martlyn LLoyd Jones spoke of this fifty years ago,yet his comments are just as true and relevant as today.
"There are so many people who are governed entirely by their feelings they do not want to use their minds and brains.Even in a religious service they just want happiness and enjoyment.They want to have a good time,as they call it,to get exited,to work themselves up by singing songs and choruses,and keep on repeating and repeating until they are in a state of mental intoxication.they do not want to be made to think.Life is hard enough they say, without having to strugglewith this thought and that,so lets have more singing and less preaching and so on.Feelings!Just a riot of enjoyment-that is a foolish person.Do you see the relevance of this state of the church today?
It does not matter how crowded your churches are in whatever country you belong to.What I want to know is,what happens when the crowd gets there? How is the time spent? and ,alas one sees and hears more and more music and entertainment and less and less of the teaching and doctrine and true understanding.That is one of the characteristics of folly"
"There is nothing more discouraging about the modern Church,and nothing more culpable,than her failure to grapple with the New Testament truths.There is much talk today about simplicity,some people saying that"they cannot be bothered with doctrine".
There is also too much emphasis upon singing;but the Church is not a place where people are to be entertained..." "or will people come to sit and listen either to singing or to the accounts of peoples experiences,coupled with a brief,light ,comfortable message.If we are to become grown men,if we are to rise to the height of our 'high calling in Christ Jesus',and to be virile Christians in this tragic modern world,then we must face these great and glorious doctrines,and so exercise our minds,our understandings,and all our senses,that we begin to have some dim conception of ourselves in this great sitting and context of the body of Christ"

This was written 50 years ago.
Look whats happening today.

[Protagoras]

Acts 20:24
However, I consider my life worth nothing to me, if only I may finish the race and complete the task the Lord Jesus has given me—the task of testifying to the gospel of God's grace.

[Gamecock]

What ever method is used shold start with the fact that the Holy Spirit is involved and quite capable of overcoming any pervieved technological barriers.

[Protagoras]

Romans 15:20
It has always been my ambition to preach the gospel where Christ was not known, so that I would not be building on someone else's foundation.

[Gamecock]

I think sometimes the purpose gets confused. I mean, clearly we're commanded to reach the lost. But there's also a lot of text about ministering to the flock. Ministering to each other. I think that sometimes a local church can get so caught up in "reaching the lost" or maybe just growing or the sake of getting bigger, that they ignore the command to minister to their own

Worship is not the place for Evangelism; instead Worship is the goal of evangelism.

[pro610]

Peter Drucker is the marketing genius behind this movement, not Warren http://www.ocmetro.com/metro102804/cover102804_3.html scroll to article 09
Drucker is Warrens mentor and a Soren Kierkegaard Existentialist.

[kjam22]

When our new preacher came a year and a half ago and proclaimed "the church is not a suppose to be a sanctuary for the saints, but is is intended to be a hospital for the sick"... I knew we had a problem.

[pro610]

Here is the correct link
http://www.ocmetro.com/metro102804/cover102804_2.html
Sorry

[pro610]

Here is a good article on the General Systems Theory being used in this movement.
Gst is an esoteric belief system based on the merger of Darwinism and eastern mysticism

http://www.crossroad.to/Excerpts/community/system-theory.htm

[Protagoras]

Matthew 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

[gamarob1]

Geez. I wonder what all the critics here are doing for the kingdom of God, besides just critiquing others on Free Republic, that is. Some people can do nothing but criticize, and what other fruit comes out of your lives for the kingdom of Jesus Christ? Not trying to be insulting, I'm just curious ;)

Rick Warren is serving God, people are getting saved by God's grace (Warren doesn't take credit for it), and the Lord is using MUCH in that church to touch lives with Jesus.

Usually when this many are offended, it's because one has greater freedom in the Lord (Warren) than another (everyone here criticizing). Warren is using what he has to touch who he can.

Regarding the comment that people aren't grown into maturity, I beg to differ. I see more people at Saddleback serving the Lord, than another certain church I used to attend that prided (yes, prided) itself on "only teaching hard meat"

[the lone haranguer]

Question: Are you referring to the same Ellul who wrote about the "triumph of things" over the value of humanity? If so, I'd say his warnings, as you point out, are spot on. FYI - I've not read all his works, but was familiarized with him when researching information on workplace violence, and the devaluation of human life since WWII. (if it's the same guy.)

I agree with you on your other points. Particularly with the following: "I'm saying Rick Warren is a marketing genius who has struck upon the truth that the American Christian church will not tolerate the deep things of God."

Sad but true for the majority of churches.

[johnb838]

Everything Christian from worship to evangelism must be fresh, new, up-to-date, attuned, appealing, seeker- sensitive, audience-friendly, and relentlessly relevant... ."All new," "must-read; "the sequel that is more than equal” - the mentality is rampant and the effect is corrosive.7

I was just thinking about this this morning. When we abandoned the traditional mass, Latin for the Catholics, Olde English for the Episcopalians, we did it to become contemporary. Well, the mass we replaced that with is now at least 25-40 years old -- it aint contemporary any more. This means there must be an endless stream of missals and Books of Common Prayer and Hymnals, because it should have to be updated AT MOST every ten years. That ought to keep a few hundred theologians busy!