Pope (Benedict XVI) pledges to end Orthodox Rift

CNN ^ | May 29, 2005 | AP

[Kolokotronis]

Can't find you at that link. What am I missing?

[Romulus]

I don't know; the link works for me. It's post #347 on this thread.

[Kolokotronis]

Is your #347 saying essentially the same thing as my #348? If so, the problem may be with the use of the word "purgatory" which I think you'll admit carrys at least 8 centuries of baggage with it along with conotations of repentance after death and some sort of pay back for sin.

[Romulus]

I hadn't noticed this post of yours before. If I understand you, the Orthodox belief is that the souls confined to hades pending their release all find their discharge simultaneously, at the Last Judgment. Do the Orthodox believe that the ultimate fate of these souls is undetermined, and that some may yet be damned -- perhaps for lack of intercessory prayer by others? That would be very hard to square with Catholic belief.

[Kolokotronis]

"Do the Orthodox believe that the ultimate fate of these souls is undetermined, and that some may yet be damned -- perhaps for lack of intercessory prayer by others? That would be very hard to square with Catholic belief."

Well, the Church talks about a foretatste of what is to come at the Final Judgment. Does that mean that once you die that's it? I don't think so. We pray mightily for the dead at our funerals and memorial services for God to be merciful. Of course the whole Orthodox idea of salvation and damnation are somewhat different from those in the West. Theosis or salvation is becoming "like God", divinized, if you will. The river of fire shown flowing from the throne of Christ in the icon of the Final Judgment is the fire of Gods Love, which will torment those who are not "like God" for an eternity while it will bring indescribable joy to those who have. In any event, all will be in the presence of God, all will feel the love of God, but their reaction to it will be quite different.

I hesitate to get into this because I am no authority on it, but I think if you read some of the Western mystics you get a sense of what I am talking about, especially in some of Merton's writings and definitely in those of +John of the Cross. The Eastern Fathers have a more developed theology of the uncreated light and what it is for man to approach that light, especially the Cappadocian Fathers and +Symeon the New Theologian. The nous of a living person and indeed the physical person himself is liable to be destroyed by an approach to that light. Now Orthodoxy teaches that eternity is spent in the presence not just of the uncreated light, but of the ineffable God Himself. The implications for what happens at the final judgment are quite startling.

Here's a possibility. The Fathers often said that the words which the Bible uses to describe atonement to God or God's wrath or God's justice or God's punishment are only there to make a point to people. As St. Basil the Great said, "It is because fear edifies simpler people." Maybe the Western Church has simply taken a mysterious situation and in attempting to define matters precisely, has used terms and images which, while incorrect, are useful to edify "simpler people."

[Kolokotronis]

Like I said, the Latin Church is the Church of the Passion, the Eastern Church that of the Resurrection. Both important, both the "sin qua non" of The Faith, but the emphasis speaks volumes on what we each are about.

[kosta50]

Well, the Church talks about a foretatste of what is to come at the Final Judgment. Does that mean that once you die that's it? I don't think so.

The Orthodox Church teaches that the souls are judged at the moment of death (Heb 9:27). It teaches that a soul cannot repent. The Synod of Jerusalem of 1672 (Against Calvinists) asserts "we believe that the condition of the departed soul is either in joy or in torment."

The souls after death receive rewards or punishments that reflect their moral condition on earth. Most importantly, we don't know the real substance of that reward or punishment, nor at the time of the Final Judgment.

But it is important to understand that the substance of both Judgments is of the same essence or nature. So, those who upon their death foretaste bliss are destined to bliss when their souls are reunited with their bodies, and those who foretaste torment are destined to eternal torment.

No amount of prayers will change one's destiny set by the way the soul is judged at the time of death. We do know that whatever judgment a soul receives is merciful and just.

It is my understand that the Russian Orthodox Church also talks about Aerial Toll Houses which are similar to the Purgatory except the torment is mental and not physical and the indulgences are "paid" to the demons as ransom for the departed soul. I find such teaching somewhat disturbing because of its similarity to some eastern religious beliefs. It lacks the typical apophatic thinking of the hesychastic tradition of the Church.

The Church also teaches its members not to be afraid of death: death to a believer is the beginning and not the end of life. As you mentioned to Hermann, Orthodoxy is a religion of Hope; to the Orthodox, God is a God of Life, not death.

And, in that phronema, our prayers for the dead are an expression of love for the departed and of gratitude to God's mercy and justice, rather than petitions that the departed are not left out in the cold.

[kosta50]

Why do you call Merton a "mystic?" Most of his writings are quite Orthodox.

[Kolokotronis]

"Why do you call Merton a "mystic?" Most of his writings are quite Orthodox."

The early Merton was; towards the end he rather went off the rails.