Restore Hagia Sophia!

jec1ny | 07-25-05 | jec1ny

[annalex]

This idea rests on the premise that the European Union is more sympathetic to Christianity than Islam, and I have not seen evidence of that so far.

[eleni121]

Very much related earlier link:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1442899/posts

[eleni121]

"The Ottoman Turks conquered Constantinople fair and and square..."

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In the same way that the Commies won North Korea fair and square or Vietnam or the National Socialists conquering their lands.

When conquest leads to freedom and improvement of life, we need more of it. However, when Ottoman Muslims or Nazis or Communists do, only despair, genocide, and oppression result.

In the case of the MuslimOttoman Turks, we have the latter: despair, genocide, forced conversion, dhimmitude (slavery), and an understanding that they can get way with it because of historical reasons.

They need to face their sordidness. and one good way to start is to restore Haghia Sophia and allow worship there, a symbol of Christianity for over a millenium.

[Dumb_Ox]

Anybody know why Greece is advocating that their historical enemy Turkey should be included in the EU?

My inner conspiracy theorist thinks that it's so they can flood Istanbul with Greeks and take back the great jewel of their civilization.

[Little Ray]

The same way WE grabbed the land from the Indians, Spanish, and Mexicans, or they grabbed the land from folks who were there before them.
I'm not ashamed of it, or inclined to give anything back, but I don't criticize others (too much) when they grab something and have the lasting power to hang on to it, improve it and make it their own. The Ottomans beat the Byzantine Empire and the Hagia is theirs as spoils of war.
Heck, I thought we should have shipped the entire contents of the Iraqi national museum back to the Smithsonian, and the troops shoulda been free to loot Saddam's palaces or Iraqi military stuff for souvenirs... That's what happens to you when you lose.

[eleni121]

We can agree to disagree with just about everything you have posted but one of your points I need to respond to.

You may not have read my full post but I referred to the Communist and the Nazis as examples of totalitarian powers that conquered, one for a shorter time than the other but certainly at great cost to those who were conquered. In the same way, the Christian Byzantines were conquered by a primitive and violent bunch and Muslim to boot and have continued their atrocities to this day - - there is no comparison between your examples of Europeans conquering Native Americans as there were thousands of nations here and very few nations actually fought against the Europeans.

[Little Ray]

Umm, the Byzantines were not exactly a bunch of saints. They were thoroughly autocratic with both spiritual and temporal power concentrated in the person of the Emperor - the Emperor of Byzantium was what the Pope wanted to be! Popular behavior was pretty iffy, too, with sports riots that make ours look pretty tame.
Technologically, the Ottomans were every bit as advanced as the Byzantines, perhaps even more so. Socially is a matter of opinion, but I'm prejudiced towards the Byzantines. Unfortunately, sometimes the good guys lose. The Byzantines were, at that time, a spent force in the world, with predictable consequences. This was due, in no small part, to the looting inflicted by erstwhile Christian allies during the last Crusades.

As for the Indians, whether they fought or not, we have the land, and they don't. And don't forget we swiped Texas and California from Mexico. We also... umm, "liberated" Cuba, the Philippines and Puerto Rico from Spain (mind you, two of the three did become independent countries, perhaps not such a good thing for either of 'em).

The only real difference is, that between nations, I consider "force of arms" to be a completely legitimate way of transferring ownership of territory, treasure, and artifacts, even if the good guys lose. The Haga Sophia belongs rightfully to Turkish government. If they choose to part with it and allow it to be re-sanctified as a church, that would be wonderful. But they are under no moral obligation to do so.

[eleni121]

I'm not use why you needed to supply a synoptic and error-filled treatment of Byzantine history when the discussion hinged on a totally different topic.

You obviously subscribe to the "bully theory" of domination - a way in which the most violent and crude achieve domination. You neglect the obvious however: For Turks to officially concede that their forefathers were racist murders, they would have to overcome generations of indoctrination and above all mindful of the massive damages Germany and German companies paid out to Holocaust victims, Turks are wary of the reparation claims that would likely be made by numerous Armenian Greek and Assyrian Christian organizations at the first indication of any admission of guilt.

As for Haghia Sophia - the Christian Cathedral of 1000 years belongs to no one but Jesus, least of all to the mohameddans of turkey. Your silly remark that it does, bespeaks some deeper held isues and I am not interested in them.

[Cronos]

Let's look for a CAtholic-Orthodox joint demand to the Turks

[Cronos]

Who will pay if it is turned into a church?

The Catholic and Orthodox churches should and would.

[Cronos]

I think it only fit and proper and just that the Hagia Sophia be given to us Catholics as our church in Istanbul.

No. I am Catholic and I don't want this -- that act would only cause unwanted, unnecessary friction between the CAtholic and Orthodox churches. The EP would consider it His Cathedral just as the church of John Laterno is the mother Church for us Latins. As long as it is a Christian Church, what difference does it make? I want the Orthodox to have it.

[NYer]

Hagia Sophia lithograph from the album by the Fossati brothers, Aya Sofia Constantinople, London 1852, (Athens Gennadeios Library).

Detail of a mosaic icon of Christ from Hagia Sophia

[Antoninus]

Hagia Sophia with those loathsome minarets airbrushed out and a cross added to the top. The way it should be.

[HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity]

They should also be forced to issue an "apology" and pay back rent (with interest).

[Modernman]

For Turks to officially concede that their forefathers were racist murders, they would have to overcome generations of indoctrination and above all mindful of the massive damages Germany and German companies paid out to Holocaust victims

Whatever the excesses of the Ottoman Empire, they are probably no better or no worse than that of any large Empire. Rome was the height of ancient civilization, but Romans engaged in their fair share of massacres and atrocities. The Spanish brought Christianity to the New World, but at the cost of millions of dead natives.

People in the West are harder on the Ottoman Empire because it was a Muslim power.

As for Haghia Sophia - the Christian Cathedral of 1000 years belongs to no one but Jesus, least of all to the mohameddans of turkey. Your silly remark that it does, bespeaks some deeper held isues and I am not interested in them.

By any objective historical standard, Hagia Sophia belongs to the Turkish government and to the Turkish people as a whole. Following your rationale, the descendants of the Aztecs and Incas should be demanding the return of their religious temples.

[GipperGal]

Beautiful picture! That one's getting the full color lazer printer treatment. It's going on my bulletin board.

[anonymoussierra]

"Fr. Anthony Chadwick has posted on his blog ( http://perso.wanadoo.fr/civitas.dei/blog_07-05.htm )an appeal to sign a petition to the European Union's Parliament. It calls for them to require Turkey to restore the great Byzantine Cathedral of Hagia Sophia to Christian use as a church, as a precondition for admission to the EU. I support this call and hope that all Christians (Eastern and Western alike) will join me in signing this petition. If you know of other places to post the link please pass it around. You may sign the petition at http://www.hagiasophiablog.com/mainpage.html"
translation

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"We in whole heart absolutely agree with""Fr. Anthony Chadwick"; its good will of each good Christian not only in words; in heart as well; to support him and give him his helping hand. May God help him in his struggle against EU; I'm afraid though EU has long ago forgotten who dear Lord is; neither fore nothing is impossible for God. In love you find wisdom."end

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thank you all

[Thorin]

I would like to see Hagia Sophia restored as a church. However, there are no circumstances under which Turkey should be allowed to join the EU. Facilitating more mass migration of Moslems into Europe is suicidal.

[eleni121]

Catholic does not mean Roman Catholic...it means universally united in Christ.

Haghia Sophia cannot be given to anyone by anyone - it belongs to all Christians.

[Antoninus]

The Spanish brought Christianity to the New World, but at the cost of millions of dead natives.

Almost all of whom died of disease.

You need to do a little reading on the Ottomans. They were perhaps the most vicious empire ever to exist on Earth. Case in point--Vlad the Impaler is often held up as a monstrous example of medieval Christian wickedness. But what is not revealed is that Vlad learned everything he knew as a captive of the Turks in his youth. As his country existed on the borders of the Ottoman Empire, he knew that the only think that would prevent him from being overrun by the Turks was to attempt to out-do them in cruelty--a very tall order. His "Forest of the Impaled" was the result.