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Pope Meets With Dissident Theologian
Yahoo News ^ | September 26, 2005

Posted on 09/26/2005 7:43:44 AM PDT by NYer

Pope Benedict XVI met with one of his fiercest critics, the dissident Swiss theologian Hans Kung, and the two had a "friendly" theological discussion, the Vatican said Monday.

The meeting occurred Saturday, Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said in a statement.

"The two agreed that there was no sense in entering, within the confines of the meeting, in a dispute surrounding the persistent doctrinal questions between Hans Kung and the magisterium of the Catholic Church," the statement said.

The two did, however, discuss other theological issues, including the question of global ethics and the dialogue between scientific reason and Christian faith, Navarro-Valls said.

Kung was stripped of the right to teach theology at the University of Tuebingen in Germany in 1979 after challenging Roman Catholic doctrines such as papal infallibility.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Current Events; General Discusssion; History; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Theology
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1 posted on 09/26/2005 7:43:44 AM PDT by NYer
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To: NYer

Well, that was very polite of the Pope. It's not too late for the Holy Spirit to touch Hans Kung, and a little cordiality certainly can't hurt!


2 posted on 09/26/2005 7:46:40 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Start the revolution - I'll bring the tea and muffins!)
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
This is a good opportunity to showcase one of the most comprehensive listings of dissenting individuals and organizations. Kudos to Bruce Sabalaskey, webmaster at OurLadysWarriors!

DISSENT

This section contains material pertaining to those organizations and persons who purport to hold the Catholic Faith but actually dissent from the Truth and instead embrace error, all while proclaiming themselves as Catholic.

3 posted on 09/26/2005 7:47:19 AM PDT by NYer
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To: All

German Cardinal Karl Lehmann of Mainz, chairman of the German bishops conference, right, talks with dissident Swiss theologian Father Hans Kung, who was stripped of his teaching rights at Catholic universities by the Vatican in 1979, left, at the German Katholikentag or Catholic Church assembly in Ulm, Germany, Saturday, in this June 19, 2004 file photo. Pope Benedict XVI granted an audience to one of his fiercest critics, the dissident Swiss theologian Hans Kueng, and the two had a 'friendly' theological discussion, Kueng and the Vatican said Monday, Sept. 26, 2005.(AP Photo/Jens Meyer)
4 posted on 09/26/2005 8:04:11 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Tax-chick; NYer

I'm betting that the two are old friends through their German connections.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the rehabilitation of Hans Kung.


5 posted on 09/26/2005 8:38:03 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: NYer
German Cardinal Karl Lehmann of Mainz, chairman of the German bishops conference, right, talks with dissident Swiss theologian Father Hans Kung,.........

"Talks"?? Hardly.

It looks as if Kung is giving him an earful and Lehmann is politely trying to look interested.

6 posted on 09/26/2005 8:40:54 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: xzins; Tax-chick; NYer
the rehabilitation of Hans Kung.

Hans, the first step of twelve is to recognize you have a problem and it has become unmanageable.

7 posted on 09/26/2005 8:48:43 AM PDT by siunevada
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To: siunevada

Hans does have a problem.

He should use the word "if" a whole lot more than in the past.

If you can't baffle 'em with bull, then hypnotize them with humility.


8 posted on 09/26/2005 8:53:39 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: narses
The two did, however, discuss other theological issues, including the question of global ethics and the dialogue between scientific reason and Christian faith, Navarro-Valls said.

What...no discussion of clown masses, Enneagrams, wreckovation, or 300-pound female liturgical dancers? That's not giving "renewal" very detailed coverage.

9 posted on 09/26/2005 8:55:05 AM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: xzins

Considering that it was the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (aka the Holy Office), headed by Benedict XVI, then Josef Cardinal Ratzinger, which enthusiastically stripped Hans Kung of his license as a Catholic theologian early in the pontificate of John Paul II of happy memory, one rather doubts that there will be any, even the slightest, rehabilitation of Hans Kung unless Kung strips himself of his infernal id and his heresies and his unearned pride and his resistance to Truth and then engages in public physical penance of Biblical proportions.


10 posted on 09/26/2005 8:57:07 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk; Salvation; NYer; siunevada
I really liked Kung's "Does God Exist?" Thought it a very worthy book, but that was pre-stripping.

I'm still betting that the two are old pals.

After all, Kung's only crime was in disputing papal infallibility. See below....Link to Quote

Ratzinger goes on to support Kung's position versus the Theology of Rome, of which today he is the top representative... He stresses:

"I want to emphasize again that I decidedly agree with Kung when he makes a clear distinction between Roman theology (taught in the schools of Rome) and the Catholic Faith. To free itself from the constraining fetters of Roman Scholastic Theology represents a duty upon which, in my humble opinion, the possibility of the survival of Catholicism seems to depend" (Ibid., p. 101, last text highlighted at right).


11 posted on 09/26/2005 9:09:15 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins; BlackElk; Salvation; NYer
Kung's only crime was in disputing papal infallibility.

A quick scan of Google brought this up from 1998.

Hans Kung: Vatican Rehab or Challenge to Change?
Some speculate whether Swiss theologian will be next "prodigal son"

On January 30, in another in a long series of sharp attacks on the Holy See, dissident theologian, Father Hans Kung also denounced the bishops of Germany for accepting the decision of Pope John Paul II that Catholic counselors should not provide the certificates of counseling required of women seeking abortions.

Kung accused the German bishops of "servile obedience" to the "Roman Kremlin", and said that by accepting the pope's decision, they had lost their "credibility" and their "apostolic franchise." He called for "tenacious resistance" against the authority of Rome, which he said was based on "half-truths" and "camouflage", and hinted that the German bishops were motivated by their desire to become cardinals.

Kung has accused the pope of imposing a "rigid, stagnating and despotic rule in the spirit of the Inquisition". Two years ago he called for a new pope who would "save the barque of Saint Peter from sinking" by changing the teaching on women priests, married male priests, divorce and birth control.

http://www.adoremus.org/Kung-598.html

Gott in Himmel!

12 posted on 09/26/2005 9:34:56 AM PDT by siunevada
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To: xzins; BlackElk; Salvation; NYer
I'm still betting that the two are old pals.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.(Discussion)
Has Kung spoke out yet about his former colleage Pope Benedict XVI (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger)?

Yes, he has. He said in a German TV interview. He called the appointment of Ratzinger a "great disappointment". He goes on to say that "many others would have been better choices". Here he cited Martini and Lehman. But Küng also expressed some hope Ratzinger could return to his more conciliatory roots: "The (papal) office changes everyone". On a personal level Küng described Ratzinger as "distanced, cool and, if necessary, Machiavellian". (entire interview: rtsp://video.daserste.azzoo.net/realcontent/moma/050420_3_28.rm)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hans_K%C3%BCng"

What a pal. I feel the love!

13 posted on 09/26/2005 9:49:43 AM PDT by siunevada
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To: xzins
After all, Kung's only crime was in disputing papal infallibility.

Your overly simplistic dismissal of Kung's actions requires a more detailed explanation.

THE HISTORICAL CREDIBILITY OF HANS KUNG

14 posted on 09/26/2005 9:50:21 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham
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Either way, Kung's ideas permeate the Church far more than neo-Catholic/Dale Hudson conservatism/EWTN-charismatic bent that gets bandied about on this forum.

In my interaction with fellow Catholics on a daily basis @ the parish level ... it is Kung who rules the day ... and this is what fuels the traditionalist movement.

15 posted on 09/26/2005 9:53:39 AM PDT by Pio (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus)
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To: NYer

Even as an evangelical, I see Kung is a heretic of the worst sort.

Why this pope would even waste time with him I'll never understand.


16 posted on 09/26/2005 10:40:39 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: siunevada

While I understand a pope meets with many people, includding heretics and dictators, this meeting is the sort of thing that weakens the Church. Why must the water always be muddied? We need a strong voice speaking out for Truth, not nicey-nice meetings with those who seek to destroy the Faith.


17 posted on 09/26/2005 10:49:06 AM PDT by charliemarlow
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To: Pio

Then it is sad to say that those fellow Catholics are all buying into heresy.


18 posted on 09/26/2005 10:54:55 AM PDT by Romish_Papist (New photos on my FR Page.)
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To: charliemarlow
this meeting is the sort of thing that weakens the Church.

Well, I did find it interesting that the last high profile meeting that made the news was with an atheist, Orianna Falacci. In terms of scheduling, I guess Kung is less important than the atheists.

And the Gospel from Sunday came to mind. Jesus is asking the chief priests and elders their opinion about the two sons. He's still calling to them, still trying to get them to see the truth.

I don't really see this meeting as weakening the Church. It doesn't validate anything Kung has to say.

19 posted on 09/26/2005 11:17:42 AM PDT by siunevada
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Why this pope would even waste time with him I'll never understand.

For the same reason Christ ate with tax collectors and other sinners I would imagine, not that the pope is or considers himself to be Christ but rather is making and effort to be Christlike.

I could be wrong;)

20 posted on 09/26/2005 12:03:06 PM PDT by conservonator (Pray for those suffering)
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To: conservonator

*** I could be wrong;)***

Titus 3
"As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned."

?


21 posted on 09/26/2005 12:11:10 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: xzins

Not unless Kueng recants. They have always been friendly.


22 posted on 09/26/2005 12:28:29 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
Maybe the stripping of credentials was warning #1 and this meeting was warning #2?

Frankly, I don't see Kung renouncing his heresies. Most heretics are so enamored with their view of the god they have created that no amount of reasoning can dissuade them of their views. When a heretic looks in the mirror he sees god.

23 posted on 09/26/2005 12:31:33 PM PDT by conservonator (Pray for those suffering)
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To: charliemarlow
The Pope is willing to meet with heretics, schismatics and lunatics.

In meeting with the heretical, schismatic, insane, Fellay, the Pope did not weaken the Church; although, to grant you your point, I wish the Pope had the Swiss Guard toss Fellay out of the Vatican on his dumb ass but the Pope, I guess, likes nicey-nice.

24 posted on 09/26/2005 12:37:22 PM PDT by bornacatholic
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To: conservonator

***When a heretic looks in the mirror he sees god.***

Very true. The liberals love to be seen as the vaunted spiritual "guru".

I've seen that they seek to destroy the authority of the Scriptures (and Tradition) so they can fill that authority void with themselves.


25 posted on 09/26/2005 1:00:58 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: siunevada

Ach du meine Gotte. Was ist ihm passiert?!#


26 posted on 09/26/2005 1:51:30 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: seamole

My point isn't whether he can be a good Catholic. It's whether he's done something that would prevent him from being friends with Ratzinger.

I'm betting there are some things that are such serious crimes that the Pope wouldn't really relish the presence of the man.....avoid the appearance of evil kind of thing.

I don't think Kung's violation is of that nature.


28 posted on 09/26/2005 2:39:11 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins
Was ist ihm passiert?

I don't know. I'm not at all curious about the man.

29 posted on 09/26/2005 2:46:10 PM PDT by siunevada
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To: bornacatholic

Yes Catholicguy, you have a few "issues" with the SSPX, its best you try to move on, but sadly it seems others like Stephen Hand and I Shawn McIlhenny who have had falling outs with the SSPX cant get on with their lives.


30 posted on 09/26/2005 3:02:36 PM PDT by RFT1 ("I wont destroy you, but I dont have to save you")
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To: xzins
I don't think Kung's violation is of that nature.

My impression is that Mr. Kung doesn't believe significant portions of the Catholic Faith. The only reason for a person to make an issue over the infallibility of the Pope, is that he disagrees with doctrines that are infallibly defined :-).

However, that simply makes him a Protestant, or, if he disagrees sufficiently, a non-Christian. I have plenty of friends (and FRiends) and cordial acquaintances (not to mention parents and siblings) who are Protestants or non-Christian, and I don't see why the Pope shouldn't.

31 posted on 09/26/2005 5:45:57 PM PDT by Tax-chick (Start the revolution - I'll bring the tea and muffins!)
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To: bornacatholic
In meeting with the heretical, schismatic, insane, Fellay, the Pope did not weaken the Church; although, to grant you your point, I wish the Pope had the Swiss Guard toss Fellay out of the Vatican on his dumb ass but the Pope, I guess, likes nicey-nice.


32 posted on 09/26/2005 5:55:49 PM PDT by vox_freedom (Fear no evil)
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: seamole

I don't think Philadelphia was criticized.


34 posted on 09/26/2005 8:37:49 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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Comment #35 Removed by Moderator

To: seamole

I, too, have nothing but admiration for Polycarp. I was simply pointing out that Smyrna was not the only church that was uncriticized. There were two of them. Philadelphia was the other. I've recently been told that of the 7 cities mentioned, that the current location of Philadelphia is the only of the 7 that has a Christian church. I have no way to verify that.


36 posted on 09/27/2005 7:01:06 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: RFT1
Funny how Kung does not receive 1/10th the bile and hatrid that Fellay does on this board.

It's clear what neoCatholics fear the most, simultaneously betraying their own progressive bent.....they are the conservative public relations front for the Modernists...Kung was just 10 years ahead of the plan on the Modernist agenda.

37 posted on 09/27/2005 7:44:05 AM PDT by Pio (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus)
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To: Pio
Funny how Kung does not receive 1/10th the bile and hatrid that Fellay does on this board.

It makes perfect sense.

"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected." -GK Chesterton

38 posted on 09/27/2005 7:46:59 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: NYer

marking


39 posted on 09/27/2005 7:48:34 AM PDT by TAdams8591 (Porn , not Conservatives, belongs in the closet.)
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To: murphE
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected." -GK Chesterton


40 posted on 09/27/2005 10:03:31 AM PDT by vox_freedom (Fear no evil)
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To: Pio; ninenot; sittnick
Actually the SSPX schism is fueled by pride, disobedience for its own sake, and is no more "traditionalist" than any other anti-papal cult.

Kung has been stripped of his license as a theologian by the Holy Office when it was headed by then Cardinal Ratzinger serving the actual Roman Catholic Church (headquartered in the Vatican and not at Wittenberg or Econe).

What ought to fuel the SSPX schism is those little burning sticks under their disobedient feet as they burn at the stake. Oh wait, that was in far more actually traditionalist times when obedience was part of tradition.

Another soul to wherever from Torquemada's band!!!

41 posted on 09/27/2005 10:49:38 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: Pio

If Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, that is very baaaaadddd news for the SSPX schismatics who are excommunicated and therefore Extra Ecclesiam.


42 posted on 09/27/2005 10:55:53 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk

Pro Multis.


43 posted on 09/28/2005 4:51:31 AM PDT by Pio (Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus)
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