Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
(Many, many verses on assurance of salvation have already been posted on this thread. I'm not sure I can add anything new. :) This particular passage in Hebrews speaks of a defiant sin, with "a high hand". This goes back to Num. 15:30-31, and even further back to Pharaoh in Exodus 14:8. Just like Pharaoh, such a person committing sin like this was never saved in the first place. Consistent with what I have said, God will not allow a truly saved person to "spit in His face" like Pharaoh did.
Therefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 1 Cor 10:1-12
To me, this whole passage boils down to "Don't be like the Jews in the desert. Some of them assumed they were saved and did whatever they wanted. They were wrong." This is consistent with what I have been saying. The person in the worst shape assumes He is saved, but is not truly. Habitual behavior like some of those Jews would be good evidence that they were not saved yet. As you have pointed out, Jesus shows us what a believer looks like.
Even Paul did not have such absolute assurance, in the verses immediately following the above: I therefore so run, not as unto an uncertain thing; so I fight, not as one that beats the air; but I keep my body under, and bring [it] into subjection, lest preaching to others, I myself should become reprobate. (1 Cor 9:26-27)
It does appear that the extended passage is a good refutation of OSAS. That's why I dropped it in favor of PotS. However, it seems our translations are dramatically different here:
1 Cor. 9:26-27 : "26 Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27 No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
That's a pretty huge difference. All we can do is stick with our own, I suppose. :)
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I presume when you mean "saved" above, you mean initial justification, not saved for eternal life. We are healed (saved) of our sins. But we are not "saved" for eternal life until we are further sanctified. Otherwise, sanctification has no utilization, as I have made great pains to explain. If we are saved for eternal life with no possibility of losing this salvation, or can add nothing (love) to it, there is NO need for this 'being made holy', since Christ already will cover us.
Well, actually no. We don't have the idea of initial justification. Every time I have used that phrase I have been ceding a point for the purpose of clarifying a different point. I was trying to say, "on your own terms then, what about this other thing?" (Sorry if I was misleading.) I believe salvation is a one-time event WITH future included actions. If the salvation is true then the actions will absolutely, necessarily happen. There is no choice involved, there is no free will involved to do good. God runs everything.
This is the use of sanctification from our POV. We don't know what's going to happen so we don't know how our sanctification is going to take shape, but we do know that it will happen. For us it is still new and does have purpose. Sure, Christ carrying on His work until completion is necessary, but since it's a lock for the truly saved, I see it as being wrapped up for all intents and purposes initially.
But you sinner's prayer does not make you of the elect, God does.
Absolutely right.
[On reward in (for) heaven:] Again, the vast majority of the time, the Scripture talks about judgment as either being eternal heaven or eternal hell.
I agree there are plenty of passages that distinguish only between heaven and hell. I just see some verses as distinguishing between different rewards once heaven is already achieved. It is a fairly debatable interpretation.
FK: "OK, then the first question to ask is: "From God's point of view, does He constantly sit there erasing and adding new names to the Book of Life."
No. God sees all as one now. He views Creation, the Incarnation, and my life as one event in the present. Thus, He doesn't need to "erase" anything -...
OK, good. So, really our only disagreement on this topic is over the verses that describe to which degree men and/or satan can snatch us out of God's hand?
As our conversation above has stated, we MAY fall away. Thus, if our "sinner's prayer" might not have been effective (since you say we might not have been saved to begin with!), you can't possibly KNOW you are of the elect irrefutably and without possibility of falling.
I have acknowledged that some people say the sinner's prayer and it is not efficacious. And, I do not claim to know the future. I do claim, though, to know better now what God's promises are and so I have as much assurance as a human can have.
I have seen the other side. I earlier shared with you a little bit about my own mother. Towards the end of her life as I was witnessing to her, I tried to ask all the "right" questions to ascertain her salvation status to whatever degree I could know it, and to see what her needs were. (I grew up with no religious influence of any kind from either parent.) She related that while she was in high school, she went to church and had "asked Jesus into her heart". But, in the 50 years since high school, her level of sanctification appeared to be near zero.
My cause for concern was that she had, at the time I was witnessing, what I perceived to be an active defiance of God. (The "high hand") She spoke actively against Him, presumably blaming Him for the unhappiness in her life since the divorce 20 years earlier, etc. By what I know now, she was a textbook case. At the time, when I believed in OSAS, I said to myself: "Whew. At least she's in." Now I know better. (Of course I know that I cannot be certain of anything because it isn't up to me. Thank God:)
Anyway, sorry for going on and on, I guess I'm trying to say that given all that, I then compare my own story. It is nothing like that. I am confident that I have been running my race for more than 15 years, and I only want to know God better and better. I have reached a place where I believe I can "rest" that God is stuck with me. :) But, I cannot quit on Him, so the "rest" is not out of complacency. God continues to affect me to want to run the race. I believe that God says He will not withdraw that from me, or allow me to choose against it permanently.
And, during these past years I have been through many trials, not on a Job level or anything, but bad enough, and through God's grace it has never occurred to me to curse God. In those times I need Him the most. :)
So, in addition to be idolatrous, apostate and followers of traditions of men, we are now being accused of not having enough faith.
Here is what Elder Cleopa, a Romanian monk well known and very much respected in the Orthodox world, had to say on this issue of salvation:
"The truth is that Christ has brought salvation to everyone, something theologians have labelled general (or objective) salvation. And yet, everyone does not actualize this objective salvation, only those who seek and pursue it. While objective salvation is granted to every human being, subjective or personal salvation depends on the intent of man. Those who desire to be saved and work toward that goal receive divine Grace as their aide and guide. This Grace does not work in us violently; rather it abides with us perennially as a specific offering for the work of our salvation.
Subsequently, it is not possible for us to speak of an unconditional predestination and its inadequate presuppositions for salvation."
That is the Orthodox teaching. I am somewhat disappointed that other members of the Apostolic Faith on this forum are beginning to agree with you. That's why the Orthodox wisdom says "Watch out."
First, you heard from me how is it that some are saved and some are lost if God loves us all. You ignored it. Love does not exist without respect. I know that it is completely impossible for you, and your Pharisaical minds, to comprehend that the omnipotent God can and does respect our decisions, our free will, because He willed it so from the beginning, because perfect love comes with perfect respect, because it is impossible to love somone without respecting the same individual.
So, only some are saved even though God loves us all, even though Jesus died for all. To an Orthodox and Roman Catholic, that makes perfect sense. To you that is a paradox. I will leave it at that.
Second, the Protestants, like Muslims, deny free will. You see God as someone Who has to assert His importance by being stronger than we are, to show who's boss, to be in charge. Christ showed us that God is nothing like that. God wins us over by love and even respect for our sillyness and foolish pride.
That is what the Apostolic Church teaches correctly. So, if you meet a woman, date her, fall in love with her and wish to marry her, but she rejects you and opts some formone who will be her ruin — what is then your move, to force yourself on her because you lover her?! If you really love her, you let her go. If she comes back, she is yours; if she doesn't she never was.
But that's not what you believe, so no wonder you can't understand it. What you believe is that God created some to go to hell and others to go to heaven (why even call them "saved"?!?). There is no love in any of that. Those who were created by God to go to heaven or hell have done absolutely nothing that God didn't want them to do, yet He sends some to hell (for the heck of it I suppose)! Like I said, Jesus Christ taught nothing of the sort. Christ won by love, not by force.
You are falling for it. It's a trap. How can we do anything that God didn't want us to do? If we are to perish because of the cartoons, it must be in God's plan, don't you see?
Are you kidding!? Luther teaches we should trust in God and sin boldly! If people believe they are already "saved" as the Protestants teach, hell will freeze over before you find humility in fallen mankind. They will simply say that it is so because God wants us to be that way and because he preordained that we shall be that way and they will do nothing because that would "thwart" God's omnipotence.
Except that is follows, not preceeds our salvation.
Not true. Some Protestants are very much in the camp of free will.
Bravo.
Christians can be obedient like Esther and live a good life or they can be like Jonah and be miserable. Either way the lot is cast in our lap but EVERY decision is of the Lord. (Prov 16:33)
. LOL! If I willfully sin (commit mortal sin), I am "unsaved". Again. Pretty clear - but we disagree! Wow, if we only had an authoritative interpretation on this. I guess we'll never know what if we can willfully sin and still enter heaven...
(1 Cor 10:12) To me, this whole passage boils down to "Don't be like the Jews in the desert. Some of them assumed they were saved and did whatever they wanted. They were wrong."
Yep. It is a model for us, as Paul says. He says the same things in Hebrews 3 and 4 (and the verse above). Don't be so sure about one's "salvation... Like the Jews, Christians can be cut from the vine (as Paul says in Romans...boy, he sure seems to teach this concept a lot, doesn't he?).
Habitual behavior like some of those Jews would be good evidence that they were not saved yet
That sounds like something a "works" salvation person would say! Isn't this so interesting? So when you make the sinner's prayer, you don't really know you are saved, because you first must see the "habitual behavior"? Hmm. :-)
(1 Cor 9:27) That's a pretty huge difference. All we can do is stick with our own, I suppose. :)
Being disqualified does not entitle a person who raced a prize, does it? Again, either a person is judged worthy for full entrance into heaven, or he is disqualified to hell. You are reading what is not there, even using your NIV (I presume), which is not the best of translations, being it is not a literal one.
I believe salvation is a one-time event WITH future included actions.
Please forgive me. It seems to me that you got me going in circles, after so many posts. Do you believe you are saved during the sinner's prayer or not? What role (if you are saved on that day) do actions play, then? Forgive me, but it seems you are going back and forth between "I'm saved eternally on Dec. 5, 2001" and "I am saved eternally, I think, on Dec. 5, 2001, but my actions verify that I am saved on Dec. 5, 2001" ??
There is no choice involved, there is no free will involved to do good. God runs everything.
Man has no free will? Oh, I hope we aren't going down that road again...Man is commanded to obey the Decalogue. A command implies the ability of the commanded to obey. I think people forget that God gives man the ability to be secondary causes. He does this out of love, to share with us, to allow us to participate in the divine nature.
We don't know what's going to happen so we don't know how our sanctification is going to take shape, but we do know that it will happen.
Along with
Sure, Christ carrying on His work until completion is necessary, but since it's a lock for the truly saved, I see it as being wrapped up for all intents and purposes initially
AHHHHHH! (Hair being pulled out). I'll never figure out this if you keep going back and forth! I thought you KNEW you were of the Elect! You are starting to sound Catholic - you don't know what will happen, but rely on God's graces to sanctify us. Well, let's keep talking!
OK, good. So, really our only disagreement on this topic is over the verses that describe to which degree men and/or satan can snatch us out of God's hand?
Satan cannot directly snatch us from God's hand (Romans 8) unless we WILL it, either directly or indirectly through laziness or the gradual falling away. There seems to be no doubt that WE can fall away, otherwise, Paul et al wouldn't need to continuously address such issues in their writings.
I am confident that I have been running my race for more than 15 years, and I only want to know God better and better. I have reached a place where I believe I can "rest" that God is stuck with me. :) But, I cannot quit on Him, so the "rest" is not out of complacency. God continues to affect me to want to run the race. I believe that God says He will not withdraw that from me, or allow me to choose against it permanently.
Well, it sounds like you have a fairly good indication of your current walk with Christ. I note that you are speaking of perseverance. That is important - because the Gospels warn us to always continue to run the race. Why? Because it is too easy to falter, to allow God's graces to fall in vain upon us. But as long as we run, we confidently hope that we are of the elect.
Brother in Christ
Anglicans? They have just sealed their fate by agreeing to ordain women bishops. Admitting free will becomes meaningless.
" Except that is follows, not preceeds our salvation."
I didn't get the impression that FK was puting theosis before all of this, rather that he was putting it afterwards, as the end result. Remember, FK uses the word salvation differently than we do, Kosta. If in fact FK, you mean to put theosis at the beginnig of this process, in other words, that an individual has become somehow completely like Christ and is dead to the self before this process of sanctification, then I would say that you've got it exactly backwards. But I get the impression you're not saying that at all.
"They will simply say that it is so because God wants us to be that way and because he preordained that we shall be that way and they will do nothing because that would "thwart" God's omnipotence."
Insh'Allah...very Mohammaden.
You have obviously never read Orthodox fathers of his calibre. Here is a little more on the pertinent subject:
This predetermination is based on the life and works of man, which are plainly evident to our All-knowing God. Indeed, Holy Scripture speaks precisely: And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the first-born among many brethren. Moreover those whom he predestined, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified (Rom. 8:28-30).
We know also that at the future judgement there will be specific criteria upon which all will be judged. No one will be judged arbitrarily for that judgement will be righteous and unprejudiced. The Apostle says, For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ; that everyone may receive the things done in his body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad (2 Cor. 5: 10, 1 Cor. 3:8). But this I say, he which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully (2 Cor. 9:6).
[my observation: why be judged for what we do if everything we do is God's plan and will?]
Furthermore, Holy Scripture sets forth this teaching with more clarity in other ways. It is often repeated that God does not want the death of any sinner, that He is not willing that any should perish, (2 Pet. 3:9, Eph. 4:6, Rom. 3:29) that all are called to salvation, and that God gave His grace to overflowing (Mat. 28:19, Rom. 10:18), precisely there where sin abounded, in order to provide all men with the possibility of salvation. All of this would be made a lie if the number of the chosen were in fact limited.
History certifies with all of the Church Fathers and theologians of great authority, together with the entirety of Holy Tradition and its incontestable substantiating elements, that the teaching on divine foreknowledge has always existed within the Church.
- Saint Irenaeus (+202 AD) says: God who knows everything has made ready the proper dwelling: for to those who seek after and yearn for the unapproachable light God in His goodness grants them that light.
- Saint John Chrysostom (+407 AD) says: God has not foreordained us for salvation only out of love, but also on account of our good deeds, because if this (salvation) were dependent only upon our good works then the coming of Christ and everything which He has effected for our salvation would be as though unnecessary.
- Saint Hilary (+367 AD) writes similarly: That which God foresaw, He also foreordained.
- Blessed Jerome (+420 AD) writes: For that which God knew would happen in the life of His Son, that He also permitted (preordained) for His Son.
- Saint Ambrose (+397 AD) says: God did not predetermine without seeing first that which He foreknew. Likewise, in those whom He foresaw worthiness, to those He also preordained a spiritual reward." {from The truth of our Faith
Obviously he must have made all this up...
[All emphases are mine]
"But in the end it's all in God's hands. He's the one that raises up nations and rulers. Who's to say God isn't raising up Islam to inflict judgment on us Christian "nations" who support abortion, homosexuals, pediophiles, divorce, etc. What we should be doing is confessing our sins and asking God for His mercies."
Well, unless you're a Mohammaden, HD (and I know you're not), its far more likely that God has little or nothing to do with any of this, but rather it's origins lie in the distortion caused by the crushing burden of sin on creation. I will admit, however, the possibility of divine pedagogical correction.
Bravo Kosta!
I do, Kolo, but if you think about it salvation is healing. We are not healed instantly. I think even Forest Keeper will admit to that. Yet he said that being "saved" to him is an "instant". That instant is when they (Protestants) accept Chrust as their Savior (please not that this an an oxymoron -- they don't believe that we do anything but rather that God does everything, so "accepting" Christ is not really a man's prerogative in their mindset, yet they use a free-will term and don't even realize their own grave contradiction).
More importantly, there is a difference between healing and being healed, saving and being saved. Annalex doesn't think it is a matter of proper tense, but proper tense has a lot to do with our mindset and the proper tense is the starting point where you will either continue thinking correctly, or go off track.
Healing is analogous to cleansing -- and healed is analogous to having been cleansed of all disease, impurity, etc. So, here we have a serious conceptual disagreement which can not be relativized as a matter of taste or semantics.
Healing has to precede being healed. Being healed is not an instant, but the end of a process of healing.
But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. (Matthew 24:13)
Likewise, Matthew 10:22, Mark 13:13, and dozens others where "save" is also in the future tense or conditional mood, point to salvation being a lifelong process.
I do see your point in these verses. They are perfect examples of why "Perseverance of the Saints" is so superior to OSAS. We might disagree on the beginning part, but I think we see eye to eye at the end. :)
It is less true of the Baptists than of doctrinaire Protestants, I admit. This is why I like them; after all my own wife is a Baptist.
Please tell her a fellow Baptist tips his hat and says "Hello". :)
Of course most Protestants of every description today simply go to church they know and love in a positive experience of Christian faith, and could care less about protesting anything or developing their own doctrine.
Yes, I agree completely.
Also, when one discovers religion as an adult and seeks to join a church, the Protestant denominations would all, typically, try to convince him by describing their doctrine, when the Orthodox or the Catholic would say simply, this is the Church Christ founded, come and we'll tell you what you need to know in the fullness of time. No marketplace of ideas where I come from.
I don't understand the difference. Even in a cynical sense, aren't we all "selling something" from our POV? :) You would also try to convince a seeker of your doctrine, just as we would, right? Are we not all in a marketplace of ideas? :)
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