Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
kosta-"That's odd, coming from a Calvinist....but luckily the Church never took isolated quotes and stopped, but kept on reading."
Not really. God made all of us exactly as we are. There is not one thing that you have that has not been given you by God including your hopes, desires, faith, etc. God fashioned each of us according to His purpose.
And, I believe, you will find that is the conclusion the early Christians came to after they finished reading.
Interesting. It appears that the Church has ALWAYS had to deal with apostates, so it is not surprising that men will fall away. I believe in the very earliest Church, apostasy was considered the worst of sins - even unforgiveable. But I believe Jesus also admitted that such would not be the end.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet. Mat 24:5-6
Many will believe they have the answer in contradistinction to the Church's proclamation of the Gospel - have fallen away from the community - but the end is not yet...
Have you gone on sinning willfully after coming to a knowledge of Christ? Do you feel there still remains a sacrifice for sins in your case?
Me personally? I can't remember when I willfully committed a deadly sin, after my reversion. If I had, I am certain that I had confessed it and had returned to Christ, as the Prodigal Son.
Regards
Anywhere that man is told to choose between good and evil. Anytime man is told to repent. Anytime man is given the commandments and told to obey them. In each case, the presumption is made that an individual is ABLE to choose to do them or not. Thus, we have free will to choose or not choose to make God's Graces effective within us.
Regards
Which merely says that WITHOUT God, I cannot please Him. I can do nothing good unless He abides within me. This doesn't say that our love is covered up by Christ. Paul is merely giving credit to God's Graces, the impetus behind his works of love. Paul is cooperating with God's graces - rather than allowing them to fall without effect.
Regards
We not only diminishing Christ's work on the cross but I would also add that diminishing original sin leads to our failure to fully acknowledging God's sovereignty.
You only understand the first half of Augustine's paradox: 1) God commands what He wills and 2) He gives what He commands. God has to give us what He commands. Men will choose the vomit unless God gives them the grace and faith to overcome their blind obedience to sin. We can't do it on our own because there is not one thing that we have that has not been given to us by God, including whether we want to choose the vomit or not. God must give us what He has commanded. He doesn't give us 50% worth of knowledge to see if we'll chooose the vomit. He gives us enough faith to reject the vomit.
If you ONLY understand the first half of Augustine's paradox then you are living the Pelagius heresy.
People make the mistake of thinking apostates are those who lose their salvation. I would say (with the support of John) that they never really had it to begin with. They are the people who, like Balaam, prophesy in God's name but never are true believers and are those who cry our, "Lord, did we not prophesy in your name...". They exist to lead the flock away from God.
I can't remember when I willfully committed a deadly sin, after my reversion. If I had, I am certain that I had confessed it...
It doesn't say a "deadly" sin. It says that if you sin "willfully" and, of course, you have willfully committed a sin after you came to Christ. We all have. We're rebellious children. If we were to take your interpretation then once we willfully commit a sin Heb 10:26-27 states there is no longer a "sacrifice for sin". Pretty scary and, no, it doesn't give us an option of confessing our sins. It plainly states that if we sin "willfully", we're doomed.
I'm simply showing that Hebrews verse cannot be interpreted the way you're interpreting it without ALL of us losing our salvation. It ties in nicely with what John and Paul talks about Christians no longer "practice sin" which is what I believe the writer of Hebrews is saying - there are those who hear the word but they continue to practice sin. Putting aside all the Calvinistic nuances, they have the laws and ceremonies. If once they have heard and received the "knowledge of truth" (in the sense of the gospel of their salvation) and revert back to their own ceremonies, there is no sacrifice for sins. They can go to the temple and kill all the fated calves they want but it won't do any good.
I’m not a good person to be talking to about Hebrews. Most writers from various persuasions believe that this section is about apostates. A few believe it talks about people losing their salvation. In my mind, and at the risk of sounding pompous (why stop now right???) :O), they’re both wrong. I believe Hebrews (and particularly chapter 10) is nothing more than an altar call to the Jews. Christians have tried to glean Christian applications from it where there are few. In fair warning I believe I’m the only one who interprets this book this way so it puts me outside the normal teachings of the fathers-any fathers and I may be a HERETIC on this matter. I rarely quote from Hebrews and I don’t like discussing Hebrews because I don’t interpret it the same way everyone else does. It doesn’t have anything to do with Calvinism. I’ve held this view of Hebrews for a long time.
The Church fathers (and Luther) want to leave Hebrews out. I kind of think it’s interesting that God would leave it in as a perpetual call to the Jews; a tad ironic.
If you ONLY understand God's sovereignty without understanding at the same time man's free will to choose, you are living the Calvinism heresy of double predestination - that God actively chooses to create and send men to hell. Only with man's free will is God's justice left intact.
If God creates something that cannot do a command of His, then how can He judge the creation as a failure?
Of course God gives what He commands. But He does not overwhelm nature. The fact that man can ignore God's graces is clear from Scripture, and shows that man DOES have a choice to make.
Regards
Then the sacred writer of Hebrews disagrees with you, as he writes that a person has lost salvation.
They are the people who, like Balaam, prophesy in God's name but never are true believers
That logic is faulty and shows where the whole concept of "once saved, always saved" falls apart (which "perseverance of the saints" means the same thing, since all Calvinists believe they are saints.)
How? Let's say that you make you sinner's prayer and now, you consider yourself of the elect. You now begin to walk in Christ, doing good deeds that express your faith, etc. Now, let's say 10 years down the road, after faithful service in God's eyes, you begin to falter and fall away. You begin to willfully sin. Now, according to you, you were never saved to begin with. IF that is so, what explains the first 10 years of faithful obedience to God? You yourself say that you cannot please God without the Spirit. No one can choose God without God. Thus, God MUST HAVE dwelt within us at one point. But now, He is gone due to our turning from him - returning to the vomit. Your idea of "never saved to begin with" totally ignores the source of your faith and love BEFORE the reversion to the vomit. You could have done those works ONLY by abiding in Christ, only by being "saved" in the first place. Now, you claim you never were saved - thus, there is a confusion on what was the initial impetus in the first place those first 10 years? Hardly. The Scriptures are quite clear that we can fall away.
It says that if you sin "willfully" and, of course, you have willfully committed a sin after you came to Christ. We all have
John seems to set a distinction between what is deadly sin and what is minor sin in 1 John 5. Paul also has the same idea in mind when he lists in Galatians and 1 Corinthians the sins that DISINHERIT a person from the Kingdom. Note, the very list implies that there are sins that DO NOT disinherit... Thus, I read Hebrews in context with the rest of Scriptures and say that I have not sinned mortally.
It plainly states that if we sin "willfully", we're doomed.
We have an intercessor in Christ Jesus (Hebrews 7:25) who continues to come to the Father for our sake, even when we sin grieviously. By turning to Christ and begging His forgiveness, we can be welcomed back and He will abide within us.
I'm simply showing that Hebrews verse cannot be interpreted the way you're interpreting it without ALL of us losing our salvation.
See above. Just as men can lose their salvation by falling away to the vomit, men can also return to the Lord and repent. The only unforgiveable sin is the sin that is never repented of because of pride.
If once they have heard and received the "knowledge of truth" (in the sense of the gospel of their salvation) and revert back to their own ceremonies, there is no sacrifice for sins. They can go to the temple and kill all the fated calves they want but it won't do any good.
Perhaps. But it doesn't say that in the text. The context is that the just will live by faith. Our faith will be displayed by our works of love. In the context of the writing, it seems that he is exhorting people to works of faith and love - and those who do not will receive judgment.
I rarely quote from Hebrews and I don’t like discussing Hebrews because I don’t interpret it the same way everyone else does. It doesn’t have anything to do with Calvinism. I’ve held this view of Hebrews for a long time.
Thus the need for one Truth.
The Church fathers (and Luther) want to leave Hebrews out. I kind of think it’s interesting that God would leave it in as a perpetual call to the Jews; a tad ironic.
I know a couple Fathers did, but not many. I don't know why Luther didn't like it - perhaps the unknown authorship? At any rate, I would agree that one of the purposes is a calling to the Jews, although I think that Romans 9-11 is more clear on that. However, the letter is written to Christians, so if it was an altar call to Jews, it was only in a secondary sense. The writer did not address the letter to Jewish communities, but to Christian ones. Thus, his primary purpose was to remind Christians of their own calling to Jesus Christ - and to not fall away (you can also look to Heb 3 and 4 for more on falling away).
Regards
Forget Calvinism for the moment. Forget predestination, man's free will, and everything else. What precisely is man choosing and how does he make this choice?
That "presumption" of yours is contraindicated over and over in Scripture.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." -- Romans 3:9-12 "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
You continue to deny Scripture by asserting that man can "choose" to act righteously in any way unless and until God turns his dead heart into a grateful recipient of His grace.
This is solely God's call, determined by Him from before the foundation of the world.
Or else we make ourselves into mini-gods who seek to become the final arbiters of our salvation by our "agreeing" to be saved.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." -- 1 Corinthians 2:10-14"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Fallen man will never "choose" the things of God because they are spiritually discerned and dead men cannot "choose" to live.
Like Lazarus, we must be born again, by His will alone.
Does God know if you will sit with Him in heaven? Or is this unknown to God?
Man is choosing whether to do his own will or to do God's will as known through the Commandments, the Scriptures, or the precepts of the Church. The choice lays open to us. Now certainly, you would agree that our will and God's will can coincide, even those who are unregenerate. But in those cases where they differ (should I steal or not?), I contend that the choice exists between satisfying our own materials needs and purposes, or satisfying God's Will as it is made known to us.
Regards
If that is the case, isn't it God who gives us our understanding and our desire to do His will?
Thank you both very much for your answers on baptism and Chrismation. My first question to you, Kolo, was going to be "I know I remember my Catholic friends in school going to their confirmation classes, so..." :) But Alex already answered that one.
And if I may follow up, I was wondering if there was any counterpart to my sinner's prayer, the point at which one becomes a "believer". It sounds like for the Catholics, this might be the confirmation. After the classes and the rite are completed the person then knows enough of the basics and is able to give a reason for his faith, etc. Is that right? Is there anything like that for the Orthodox?
Perhaps another way to come at it is would you say there is any "need" for the sinner's prayer? I can't imagine you all would have any problem with saying a prayer and inviting Christ into your lives as Lord. But, is it needed, or is it not really needed because the same thing is already accomplished via sacrament? Is the idea of actively inviting Christ into our lives a part of your faiths? (Please don't take offense if this line is ridiculous. :)
In Romans 3, Paul is merely continuing what he said in Romans 2 and will continue in Romans 4 - that the Jews are NOT righteous due to their fleshy birth. Men and women are righteous as a result of being spiritually circumcised, as per the last verses of Romans 2. He is writing against proud Jews who believed they are saved because of their circumcision. Yet, Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE his circumcision - and Paul quotes a litany of verses that show the wickedness of David's opponents - ALL JEWS! It would be perfectly clear, then, that the early reader of Romans would know what Paul is saying (presuming you are aware of what Paul is quoting).
You continue to deny Scripture by asserting that man can "choose" to act righteously in any way unless and until God turns his dead heart into a grateful recipient of His grace.
That is false. I am denying YOUR INTERPRETATION of Scripture, not Scripture itself, as I note above. Your interpetations are incorrect, and were not held by any reader of the Scriptures until Luther came along and twisted Scriptures to follow his own theology. YOUR interpretation is NOT Scipture, nor is it inspired. There is absolutely no point in posting the many verses of Scripture that tells that "men will be judged based on their works" or "that men have set before them two choices" (Deut 30:15-17) God doesn't command people to do things that they cannot do without His help.
Or else we make ourselves into mini-gods who seek to become the final arbiters of our salvation by our "agreeing" to be saved.
Catholics don't consider themselves of the elect merely because we are baptised. That sounds more like something a Protestant would proclaim: "I'm saved - no matter what happens from now on"...
Fallen man will never "choose" the things of God because they are spiritually discerned and dead men cannot "choose" to live.
Sure they can; if Christ abides in me, ALL things are possible. Christ enables me to love, to have faith, and to be justified in God's eyes. After Baptism, I am no longer "dead" in sin, but alive IN CHRIST. As to that initial faith to come to the Lord, that is God, certainly and entirely. But it doesn't follow that I will be saved for eternal heaven because I had become baptised or said a sinner's prayer in 1995 or whatever.
Like Lazarus, we must be born again, by His will alone.
Lazarus was born again? Where is that in Scriptures?
Does God know if you will sit with Him in heaven? Or is this unknown to God?
It's known to Him, of course, but not to me.
Regards
Phil 2:12-13 clearly tells us that God moves in us our will and desire to do what is pleasing to Him. But not infallibly, because men CAN refuse God's graces (and thus, they are evil and have chosen NOT to accept God's graces).
Regards
Phillipians simply states that God is at work in us for His good pleasure. Therefore we need to consider this in the lives we live. It doesn't state anywhere that men can refuse God's graces.
That's the second part. But what about "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"? Who is told to do that? By the very command to do it, it is implied that we can refuse it. The Scripture does tell us more clearly in other places that we can resist or reject God's graces:
We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain. For He says: "In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you." 2 Cor 6:1-2
And who can forget the parable of the sower and the seed in Matthew 13. This parable shows the interaction between God's graces and our nature and response to Him. Without the seed (grace), there can be NO life (in Christ), nothing worthy of eternal life. However, note the seed falls on 4 different soils - each indicative of men's response to the Word. Note the seed that falls on rocky ground... In any case, it is clear from Phil 2:12-13 that their is an interaction between God and man - and in other places, Scripture shows men refusing God's graces.
We are temples of the living God (1 Cor 3:16).
It doesn't say we are permanently so. Read the next verse - we can grieve the Holy Spirit by doing evil, or by willful sin.
"if any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are. 1 Cor 3:17
Pretty clear that men CAN and DO fall away, after becoming Temples of the Holy Spirit...
Regards
You mean these verses from Psalms?
The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." -- Psalm 14:1-3 "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Or these verses from Psalms?
God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." -- Psalm 53:1-3"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
The righteousness of Zechariah, Elizabeth, Joseph, David, you, me, Paul, anyone, it is all the same righteousness -- the imputed righteousness of Christ upon our sinning hearts.
Or else you claim it for yourself. "Ye shall be as gods."
Lazarus was born again? Where is that in Scriptures?
Now I understand our miscommunication. You must think Lazarus was just sleeping and not four days putrified until Christ caused him to live again. Christ went so far as to say He was "glad" He had waited so long to visit Lazarus that he had died in order to prove to His disciples that He was their only salvation.
And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him." -- John 11:14-15 "Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Baptism and the sinner's prayer have nothing to do with God predestining salvation on whomever He chooses, ordained by Him from before the foundation of the world.
It (our salvation) is known to Him, of course...
Of course? Then how can you change it?
"The Canons of Dort state: "Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He hath, out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen, from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault, from their primitive state of rectitude, into sin and destruction, a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect, and foundation of salvation."
"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" -- 2 Timothy 1:9
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" -- Titus 3:4-5 "But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day." -- Romans 11:5-8
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." -- Ephesians 1:5-12"Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
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