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Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will
Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD

Introduction

At the time of the Reformation, many hoped Martin Luther and Erasmus could unite against the errors of the Roman Catholic Church. Luther himself was tempted to unite with Erasmus because Erasmus was a great Renaissance scholar who studied the classics and the Greek New Testament. Examining the Roman Catholic Church, Erasmus was infuriated with the abuses in the Roman Catholic Church, especially those of the clergy. These abuses are vividly described in the satire of his book, The Praise of Folly. Erasmus called for reform in the Roman Catholic Church. Erasmus could have been a great help to the Reformation, so it seemed, by using the Renaissance in the service of the Reformation.

But a great chasm separated these two men. Luther loved the truth of God's Word as that was revealed to him through his own struggles with the assurance of salvation. Therefore Luther wanted true reformation in the church, which would be a reformation in doctrine and practice. Erasmus cared little about a right knowledge of truth. He simply wanted moral reform in the Roman Catholic Church. He did not want to leave the church, but remained supportive of the Pope.

This fundamental difference points out another difference between the two men. Martin Luther was bound by the Word of God. Therefore the content of the Scripture was of utmost importance to him. But Erasmus did not hold to this same high view of Scripture. Erasmus was a Renaissance rationalist who placed reason above Scripture. Therefore the truth of Scripture was not that important to him.

The two men could not have fellowship with each other, for the two movements which they represented were antithetical to each other. The fundamental differences came out especially in the debate over the freedom of the will.

From 1517 on, the chasm between Luther and Erasmus grew. The more Luther learned about Erasmus, the less he wanted anything to do with him. Melanchthon tried to play the mediator between Luther and Erasmus with no success. But many hated Erasmus because he was so outspoken against the church. These haters of Erasmus tried to discredit him by associating him with Luther, who was outside the church by this time. Erasmus continued to deny this unity, saying he did not know much about the writings of Luther. But as Luther took a stronger stand against the doctrinal abuses of Rome, Erasmus was forced either to agree with Luther or to dissociate himself from Luther. Erasmus chose the latter.

Many factors came together which finally caused Erasmus to wield his pen against Luther. Erasmus was under constant pressure from the Pope and later the king of England to refute the views of Luther. When Luther became more outspoken against Erasmus, Erasmus finally decided to write against him. On September 1, 1524, Erasmus published his treatise On the Freedom of the Will. In December of 1525, Luther responded with The Bondage of the Will.

Packer and Johnston call The Bondage of the Will "the greatest piece of theological writing that ever came from Luther's pen."1 Although Erasmus writes with eloquence, his writing cannot compare with that of Luther the theologian. Erasmus writes as one who cares little about the subject, while Luther writes with passion and conviction, giving glory to God. In his work, Luther defends the heart of the gospel over against the Pelagian error as defended by Erasmus. This controversy is of utmost importance.

In this paper, I will summarize both sides of the controversy, looking at what each taught and defended. Secondly, I will examine the biblical approach of each man. Finally, the main issues will be pointed out and the implications of the controversy will be drawn out for the church today.

Erasmus On the Freedom of the Will

Erasmus defines free-will or free choice as "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation or turn away from them." By this, Erasmus means that man has voluntary or free power of himself to choose the way which leads to salvation apart from the grace of God.

Erasmus attempts to answer the question how man is saved: Is it the work of God or the work of man according to his free will? Erasmus answers that it is not one or the other. Salvation does not have to be one or the other, for God and man cooperate. On the one hand, Erasmus defines free-will, saying man can choose freely by himself, but on the other hand, he wants to retain the necessity of grace for salvation. Those who do good works by free-will do not attain the end they desire unless aided by God's grace. Therefore, in regard to salvation, man cooperates with God. Both must play their part in order for a man to be saved. Erasmus expresses it this way: "Those who support free choice nonetheless admit that a soul which is obstinate in evil cannot be softened into true repentance without the help of heavenly grace." Also, attributing all things to divine grace, Erasmus states,

And the upshot of it is that we should not arrogate anything to ourselves but attribute all things we have received to divine grace … that our will might be synergos (fellow-worker) with grace although grace is itself sufficient for all things and has no need of the assistance of any human will."

In his work On the Freedom of the Will, Erasmus defends this synergistic view of salvation. According to Erasmus, God and man, nature and grace, cooperate together in the salvation of a man. With this view of salvation, Erasmus tries to steer clear of outright Pelagianism and denies the necessity of human action which Martin Luther defends.

On the basis of an apocryphal passage (Ecclesiasticas 15:14-17), Erasmus begins his defense with the origin of free-will. Erasmus says that Adam, as he was created, had a free-will to choose good or to turn to evil. In Paradise, man's will was free and upright to choose. Adam did not depend upon the grace of God, but chose to do all things voluntarily. The question which follows is, "What happened to the will when Adam sinned; does man still retain this free-will?" Erasmus would answer, "Yes." Erasmus says that the will is born out of a man's reason. In the fall, man's reason was obscured but was not extinguished. Therefore the will, by which we choose, is depraved so that it cannot change its ways. The will serves sin. But this is qualified. Man's ability to choose freely or voluntarily is not hindered.

By this depravity of the will, Erasmus does not mean that man can do no good. Because of the fall, the will is "inclined" to evil, but can still do good. Notice, he says the will is only "inclined" to evil. Therefore the will can freely or voluntarily choose between good and evil. This is what he says in his definition: free-will is "a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation." Not only does the human will have power, although a little power, but the will has power by which a man merits salvation.

This free choice of man is necessary according to Erasmus in order for there to be sin. In order for a man to be guilty of sin, he must be able to know the difference between good and evil, and he must be able to choose between doing good and doing evil. A man is responsible only if he has the ability to choose good or evil. If the free-will of man is taken away, Erasmus says that man ceases to be a man.

For this freedom of the will, Erasmus claims to find much support in Scripture. According to Erasmus, when Scripture speaks of "choosing," it implies that man can freely choose. Also, whenever the Scripture uses commands, threats, exhortations, blessings, and cursings, it follows that man is capable of choosing whether or not he will obey.

Erasmus defines the work of man's will by which he can freely choose after the fall. Here he makes distinctions in his idea of a "threefold kind of law" which is made up of the "law of nature, law of works, and law of faith." First, this law of nature is in all men. By this law of nature, men do good by doing to others what they would want others to do to them. Having this law of nature, all men have a knowledge of God. By this law of nature, the will can choose good, but the will in this condition is useless for salvation. Therefore more is needed. The law of works is man's choice when he hears the threats of punishment which God gives. When a man hears these threats, he either continues to forsake God, or he desires God's grace. When a man desires God's grace, he then receives the law of faith which cures the sinful inclinations of his reason. A man has this law of faith only by divine grace.

In connection with this threefold kind of law, Erasmus distinguishes between three graces of God. First, in all men, even in those who remain in sin, a grace is implanted by God. But this grace is infected by sin. This grace arouses men by a certain knowledge of God to seek Him. The second grace is peculiar grace which arouses the sinner to repent. This does not involve the abolishing of sin or justification. But rather, a man becomes "a candidate for the highest grace." By this grace offered to all men, God invites all, and the sinner must come desiring God's grace. This grace helps the will to desire God. The final grace is the concluding grace which completes what was started. This is saving grace only for those who come by their free-will. Man begins on the path to salvation, after which God completes what man started. Along with man's natural abilities according to his will, God works by His grace. This is the synergos, or cooperation, which Erasmus defends.

Erasmus defends the free-will of man with a view to meriting salvation. This brings us to the heart of the matter. Erasmus begins with the premise that a man merits salvation. In order for a man to merit salvation, he cannot be completely carried by God, but he must have a free-will by which he chooses God voluntarily. Therefore, Erasmus concludes that by the exercise of his free-will, man merits salvation with God. When man obeys, God imputes this to his merit. Therefore Erasmus says, "This surely goes to show that it is not wrong to say that man does something…." Concerning the merit of man's works, Erasmus distinguishes with the Scholastics between congruent and condign merit. The former is that which a man performs by his own strength, making him a "fit subject for the gift of internal grace." This work of man removed the barrier which keeps God from giving grace. The barrier removed is man's unworthiness for grace, which God gives only to those who are fit for it. With the gift of grace, man can do works which before he could not do. God rewards these gifts with salvation. Therefore, with the help or aid of the grace of God, a man merits eternal salvation.

Although he says a man merits salvation, Erasmus wants to say that salvation is by God's grace. In order to hold both the free-will of man and the grace of God in salvation, Erasmus tries to show the two are not opposed to each other. He says, "It is not wrong to say that man does something yet attributes the sum of all he does to God as the author." Explaining the relationship between grace and free-will, Erasmus says that the grace of God and the free-will of man, as two causes, come together in one action "in such a way, however, that grace is the principle cause and the will secondary, which can do nothing apart from the principle cause since the principle is sufficient in itself." Therefore, in regard to salvation, God and man work together. Man has a free-will, but this will cannot attain salvation of itself. The will needs a boost from grace in order to merit eternal life.

Erasmus uses many pictures to describe the relationship between works and grace. He calls grace an "advisor," "helper," and "architect." Just as the builder of a house needs the architect to show him what to do and to set him straight when he does something wrong, so also man needs the assistance of God to help him where he is lacking. The free-will of man is aided by a necessary helper: grace. Therefore Erasmus says, "as we show a boy an apple and he runs for it ... so God knocks at our soul with His grace and we willingly embrace it." In this example, we are like a boy who cannot walk. The boy wants the apple, but he needs his father to assist him in obtaining the apple. So also, we need the assistance of God's grace. Man has a free-will by which he can seek after God, but this is not enough for him to merit salvation. By embracing God's grace with his free-will, man merits God's grace so that by his free-will and the help of God's grace he merits eternal life. This is a summary of what Erasmus defends.

Erasmus also deals with the relationship of God's foreknowledge and man's free-will. On the one hand, God does what he wills, but, on the other hand, God's will does not impose anything on man's will, for then man's will would not be free or voluntary. Therefore God's foreknowledge is not determinative, but He simply knows what man will choose. Men deserve punishment from eternity simply because God knows they will not choose the good, but will choose the evil. Man can resist the ordained will of God. The only thing man cannot resist is when God wills in miracles. When God performs some "supernatural" work, this cannot be resisted by men. For example, when Jesus performed a miracle, the man whose sight returned could not refuse to be healed. According to Erasmus, because man's will is free, God's will and foreknowledge depend on man's will except when He performs miracles.

This is a summary of what Erasmus taught in his treatise On the Freedom of the Will. In response to this treatise, Luther wrote The Bondage of the Will. We turn to this book of Luther.

Luther's Arguments Against Erasmus

Martin Luther gives a thorough defense of the sovereign grace of God over against the "semi-Pelagianism" of Erasmus by going through much of Erasmus' On the Freedom of the Will phrase by phrase. Against the cooperating work of salvation defended by Erasmus, Luther attacks Erasmus at the very heart of the issue. Luther's thesis is that "free-will is a nonentity, a thing consisting of name alone" because man is a slave to sin. Therefore salvation is the sovereign work of God alone.

In the "Diatribe," Luther says, Erasmus makes no sense. It seems Erasmus speaks out of both sides of his mouth. On the one hand, he says that man's will cannot will any good, yet on the other hand, he says man has a free-will. Other contradictions also exist in Erasmus' thought. Erasmus says that man has the power to choose good, but he also says that man needs grace to do good. Opposing Erasmus, Luther rightly points out that if there is free-will, there is no need for grace. Because of these contradictions in Erasmus, Luther says Erasmus "argues like a man drunk or asleep, blurting out between snores, 'Yes,' 'No.' " Not only does this view of Erasmus not make sense, but this is not what Scripture says concerning the will of man and the grace of God.

According to Luther, Erasmus does not prove his point, namely, the idea that man with his free-will cooperates in salvation with God. Throughout his work, Luther shows that Erasmus supports and agrees with the Pelagians. In fact, Erasmus' view is more despicable than Pelagianism because he is not honest and because the grace of God is cheapened. Only a small work is needed in order for a man to merit the grace of God.

Because Erasmus does not take up the question of what man can actually do of himself as fallen in Adam, Luther takes up the question of the ability of man. Here, Luther comes to the heart of his critique of the Diatribe in which he denies free-will and shows that God must be and is sovereign in salvation. Luther's arguments follow two lines: first, he shows that man is enslaved to sin and does not have a free-will; secondly, he shows that the truth of God's sovereign rule, by which He accomplishes His will according to His counsel, is opposed to free-will.

First, Luther successfully defends the thesis that there is no such entity as free-will because the will is enslaved to sin. Luther often says there is no such thing as free-will. The will of man without the grace of God "is not free at all, but is the permanent prisoner and bondslave of evil since it cannot turn itself to good." The free-will lost its freedom in the fall so that now the will is a slave to sin. This means the will can will no good. Therefore man does and wills sin "necessarily." Luther further describes the condition of man's will when he explains a passage from Ezekiel: "It cannot but fall into a worse condition, and add to its sins despair and impenitence unless God comes straightway to its help and calls it back and raises it up by the word of His promise."

Luther makes a crucial distinction in explaining what he means when he says man sins "necessarily." This does not mean "compulsion." A man without the Spirit is not forced, kicking and screaming, to sin but voluntarily does evil. Nevertheless, because man is enslaved to sin, his will cannot change itself. He only wills or chooses to sin of himself. He cannot change this willingness of his: he wills and desires evil. Man is wholly evil, thinking nothing but evil thoughts. Therefore there is no free-will.

Because this is the condition of man, he cannot merit eternal life. The enslaved will cannot merit anything with God because it can do no good. The only thing which man deserves is eternal punishment. By this, Luther also shows that there is no free-will.

In connection with man's merit, Luther describes the true biblical uses of the law. The purpose of the law of God is not to show men how they can merit salvation, but the law is given so that men might see their sinfulness and their own unworthiness. The law condemns the works of man, for when he judges himself according to the law, man sees that he can do no good. Therefore, he is driven to the cross. The law also serves as a guide for what the believer should do. But the law does not say anything about the ability of man to obey it.

Not only should the idea of free-will be rejected because man is enslaved to sin, but also because of who God is and the relationship between God and man. A man cannot act independently of God. Analyzing what Erasmus said, Luther says that God is not God, but He is an idol, because the freedom of man rules. Everything depends on man for salvation. Therefore man can merit salvation apart from God. A God that depends on man is not God.

Denying this horrible view of Erasmus, Luther proclaims the sovereignty of God in salvation. Because God is sovereign in all things and especially in salvation, there is no free-will.

Luther begins with the fact that God alone has a free-will. This means only God can will or not will the law, gospel, sin, and death. God does not act out of necessity, but freely. He alone is independent in all He decrees and does. Therefore man cannot have a free-will by which he acts independently of God, because God is immutable, omnipotent, and sovereign over all. Luther says that God is omnipotent, knowing all. Therefore we do nothing of ourselves. We can only act according to God's infallible, immutable counsel.

The great error of free-willism is that it ascribes divinity to man's free-will. God is not God anymore. If man has a free-will, this implies God is not omnipotent, controlling all of our actions. Free-will also implies that God makes mistakes and changes. Man must then fix the mistakes. Over against this, Luther says there can be no free-will because we are under the "mastery of God." We can do nothing apart from God by our own strength because we are enslaved to sin.

Luther also understands the difficulties which follow from saying that God is sovereign so that all things happen necessarily. Luther states: "If God foreknows a thing, it necessarily happens." The problem between God's foreknowledge and man's freedom cannot be completely solved. God sovereignly decrees all things that happen, and they happen as He has decreed them necessarily. Does this mean that when a man sins, he sins because God has decreed that sin? Luther would answer, Yes. But God does not act contrary to what man is. Man cannot will good, but he only seeks after sinful lusts. The nature of man is corrupted, so that he is turned from God. But God works in men and in Satan according to what they are. The sinner is still under the control of the omnipotent God, "which means, since they are evil and perverted themselves, that when they are impelled to action by this movement of Divine omnipotence they do only that which is perverted or evil." When God works in evil men, evil results. But God is not evil. He is good. He does not do evil, but He uses evil instruments. The sin is the fault of those evil instruments and not the fault of God.

Luther asks himself the question, Why then did God let Adam fall so all men have his sin? The sovereignty of God must not be questioned, because God's will is beyond any earthly standard. Nothing is equal to God and His will. Answering the question above, Luther replies, "What God wills is not right because He ought or was bound, so to will, on the contrary, what takes place must be right because He so wills it." This is the hidden mystery of God's absolute sovereignty over all things.

God is sovereign over all things. He is sovereign in salvation. Is salvation a work of God and man? Luther answers negatively. God alone saves. Therefore salvation cannot be based on the merits of men's works. Man's obedience does not obtain salvation, according to Luther. Some become the sons of God "not by carnal birth, nor by zeal for the law, nor by any other human effort, but only by being born of God." Grace does not come by our own effort, but by the grace of Jesus Christ. To deny grace is to deny Jesus Christ. For Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. Free-will says that it is the way, the truth, and the life. Therefore free-will denies Jesus Christ. This is a serious error.

God saves by His grace and Spirit in such away that the will is turned by Him. Only when the will is changed can it will and desire the good. Luther describes a struggle between God and Satan. Erasmus says man stands between God and Satan, who are as spectators waiting for man to make his choice. But Luther compares this struggle to a horse having two riders. "If God rides, it wills and goes where God goes…. If Satan rides, it wills and goes where Satan goes." The horse does not have the choice of which rider it wants. We have Satan riding us until God throws him off. In the same way, we are enslaved to sin until God breaks the power of sin. The salvation of a man depends upon the free work of God, who alone is sovereign and able to save men. Therefore this work in the will by God is a radical change whereby the willing of the soul is freed from sin. This beautiful truth stands over against Erasmus' grace, which gives man a booster shot in what he can do of himself.

This truth of the sovereignty of God in salvation is comforting to us. When man trusts in himself, he has no comfort that he is saved. Because man is enslaved to sin and because God is the sovereign, controlling all things according to His sovereign, immutable will, there is no free-will. The free-will of man does not save him. God alone saves.

The Battle of the Biblical Texts

The battle begins with the fundamental difference separating Luther and Erasmus in regard to the doctrine of Scripture. Erasmus defends the obscurity of Scripture. Basically, Erasmus says man cannot know with certainty many of the things in Scripture. Some things in God's Word are plain, while many are not. He applies the obscurity of Scripture to the controversy concerning the freedom of the will. In the camp of the hidden things of God, which include the hour of our death and when the last judgment will occur, Erasmus places "whether our will accomplishes anything in things pertaining to salvation." Because Scripture is unclear about these things, what one believes about these matters is not important. Erasmus did not want controversy, but he wanted peace. For him, the discussion of the hidden things is worthless because it causes the church to lose her love and unity.

Against this idea of the obscurity of Scripture, Luther defends the perspicuity of Scripture. Luther defines perspicuity as being twofold. The external word itself is clear, as that which God has written for His people. But man cannot understand this word of himself. Therefore Scripture is clear to God's people only by the work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts.

The authority of Scripture is found in God Himself. God's Word must not be measured by man, for this leads to paradoxes, of which Erasmus is a case in point. By saying Scripture is paradoxical, Erasmus denies the authority of God's Word.

Luther does not deny that some passages are difficult to understand. This is not because the Word is unclear or because the work of the Holy Spirit is weak. Rather, we do not understand some passages because of our own weakness.

If Scripture is obscure, then this opposes what God is doing in revelation. Scripture is light which reveals the truth. If it is obscure, then why did God give it to us? According to Luther, not even the difficult to understand doctrines such as the Trinity, the Incarnation, and the unpardonable sin are obscure. Therefore the issue of the freedom of the will is not obscure. If the Scripture is unclear about the doctrine of the will of man, then this doctrine is not from Scripture.

Because Scripture is clear, Luther strongly attacks Erasmus on this fundamental point. Luther says, "The Scriptures are perfectly clear in their teaching, and that by their help such a defense of our position may be made that our adversaries cannot resist." This is what Luther hoped to show to Erasmus. The teaching of Scripture is fundamental. On this point of perspicuity, Luther has Erasmus by the horns. Erasmus says Scripture is not clear on this matter of the freedom of the will, yet he appeals to the church fathers for support. The church fathers base their doctrine of the free-will on Scripture. On the basis of the perspicuity of Scripture, Luther challenges Erasmus to find even one passage that supports his view of free-will. Luther emphasizes that not one can be found.

Luther also attacks Erasmus when he says what one believes concerning the freedom of the will does not matter. Luther sums up Erasmus' position this way: "In a word, what you say comes to this: that you do not think it matters a scrap what any one believes anywhere, as long as the world is at peace." Erasmus says the knowledge of free-will is useless and non-essential. Over against this, Luther says, "then neither God, Christ, Gospel, faith, nor anything else even of Judaism, let alone Christianity, is left!" Positively, Luther says about the importance of the truth: "I hold that a solemn and vital truth, of eternal consequences, is at stake in the discussion." Luther was willing to defend the truth even to death because of its importance as that which is taught in Scripture.

A word must also be said about the differing views of the interpretation of Scripture. Erasmus was not an exegete. He was a great scholar of the languages, but this did not make him an able exegete. Erasmus does not rely on the Word of God of itself, but he turns to the church fathers and to reason for the interpretation of Scripture. In regard to the passage out of Ecclesiasticas which Erasmus uses, Luther says the dispute there is not over the teaching of Scripture, but over human reason. Erasmus generalizes from a particular case, saying that since a passage mentions willing, this must mean a man has a free-will. In this regard, Luther also says that Erasmus "fashions and refashions the words of God as he pleases." Erasmus was concerned not with what God says in His Word, but with what he wanted God to say.

Not only does Erasmus use his own reason to interpret Scripture, but following in the Roman Catholic tradition he goes back to the church fathers. His work is filled with many quotes from the church fathers' interpretation of different passages. The idea is that the church alone has the authority to interpret Scripture. Erasmus goes so far in this that Luther accuses Erasmus of placing the fathers above the inspired apostle Paul.

In contrast to Erasmus, Luther interprets Scripture with Scripture. Seeing the Word of God as inspired by the Holy Spirit, Luther also trusts in the work of the Holy Spirit to interpret that Word. One of the fundamental points of Reformed hermeneutics is that Scripture interprets Scripture. Luther follows this. When Luther deals with a passage, he does not take it out of context as Erasmus does. Instead, he examines the context and checks other passages which use the same words.

Also, Luther does not add figures or devise implications as Erasmus does. But rather, Luther sticks to the simple and plain meaning of Scripture. He says, "Everywhere we should stick to just the simple, natural meaning of the words, as yielded by the rules of grammar and the habits of speech that God has created among men." In the controversy over the bondage of the will, both the formal and material principles of the Reformation were at stake.

Now we must examine some of the important passages for each man. This is a difficult task because they both refer to so many passages. We must content ourselves with looking at those which are fundamental for the main points of the controversy.

Showing the weakness of his view of Scripture, Erasmus begins with a passage from an apocryphal book: Ecclesiasticas 15:14-17. Erasmus uses this passage to show the origin of the free will and that the will continues to be free after the fall.

Following this passage, Erasmus looks at many passages from the Old Testament to prove that man has a free-will. He turns to Genesis 4:6, 7, which records God speaking to Cain after he offered his displeasing sacrifice to God. Verse 7 says, "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? And if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door." Erasmus says that God sets before Cain a reward if he chooses the good. But if he chooses the evil, he will be punished. This implies that Cain has a will which can overcome evil and do the good.

From here, Erasmus looks at different passages using the word "choose." He says Scripture uses the word "choose" because man can freely choose. This is the only way it makes sense.

Erasmus also looks at many passages which use the word "if" in the Old Testament and also the commands of the Old Testament. For example, Isaiah 1:19,20 and 21:12 use the words "if … then." These conditions in Scripture imply that a man can do these things. Deuteronomy 30:14 is an example of a command. In this passage, Israel is commanded to love God with all their heart and soul. This command was given because Moses and the people had it in them to obey. Erasmus comes to these conclusions by implication.

Using a plethora of New Testament texts, Erasmus tries to support the idea of the freedom of the will. Once again, Erasmus appeals to those texts which speak of conditions. John 14:15 says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Also, in John 15:7 we read, "If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you." These passages imply that man is able to fulfill the conditions by his free-will.

Remarkably, Erasmus identifies Paul as "the champion of free choice." Referring to passages in which Paul exhorts and commands, Erasmus says that this implies the ability to obey. An example is I Corinthians 9:24,25: "Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible." Man is able to obey this command because he has a free-will.

These texts can be placed together because Luther responds to them as a whole. Luther does treat many of these texts separately, but often comes back to the same point. Luther's response to Genesis 4:7 applies to all of the commands and conditions to which Erasmus refers: "Man is shown, not what he can do, but what he ought to do." Similarly, Luther responds to Deuteronomy 30:19: "It is from this passage that I derive my answer to you: that by the words of the law man is admonished and taught, not what he can do, but what he ought to do; that is, that he may know sin, not that he may believe that he has any strength." The exhortations and commands of the New Testament given through the apostle Paul are not written to show what we can do, but rather, after the gospel is preached, they encourage those justified and saved to live in the Spirit.

From these passages, Erasmus also taught that man merited salvation by his obedience or a man merited punishment by his disobedience, all of which was based on man's ability according to his free-will. Erasmus jumps from reward to merit. He does this in the conditional phrases of Scripture especially. But Luther says that merit is not proved from reward. God uses rewards in Scripture to exhort us and threaten us so that the godly persevere. Rewards are not that which a man merits.

The heart of the battle of the biblical texts is found in their treatment of passages from the book of Romans, especially Romans 9. Here, Erasmus treats Romans 9 as a passage which seems to oppose the freedom of the will but does not.

Erasmus begins his treatment of Romans 9 by considering the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. He treats this in connection with what Romans 9:18 says, "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will, he hardeneth." To interpret this passage, Erasmus turns to Jerome, who says, "God hardens when he does not at once punish the sinner and has mercy as soon as he invites repentance by means of afflictions." God's hardening and mercy are the results of what man does. God has mercy "on those who recognize the goodness of God and repent…." Also, this hardening is not something which God does, but something which Pharaoh did by not repenting. God was longsuffering to Pharaoh, not punishing him immediately, during which Pharaoh hardened his heart. God simply gave the occasion for the hardening of his heart. Therefore the blame can be placed on Pharaoh.

Although Erasmus claims to take the literal meaning of the passage, Luther is outraged at this interpretation. Luther objects:

Showing the absurdity of what Erasmus says, Luther says that this view means that God shows mercy when He sends Israel into captivity because then they are invited to repent; but when Israel is brought back from captivity, He hardens them by giving them the opportunity of hardening in His longsuffering. This is "topsy-turvy."

Positively, Luther explains this hardening of the heart of Pharaoh. God does this, therefore Pharaoh's heart is necessarily hardened. But God does not do something which is opposed to the nature of Pharaoh. Pharoah is enslaved to sin. When he hears the word of God through Moses which irritates his evil will, Pharaoh's heart is hardened. Luther explains it this way:

In his consideration of Jacob and Esau in Romans 9, Erasmus denies that this passage speaks of predestination. Erasmus says God does not hate anybody from eternity. But God's wrath and fury against sin are revealed on Esau because He knows the sins he will commit. In this connection, when Romans 9 speaks of God as the potter making a vessel of honor and dishonor, Erasmus says that God does this because of their belief and unbelief. Erasmus is trying to deny the necessity of the fulfillment of God's decree in order to support the freedom of the will.

Once again, Luther objects. Luther defends the necessity of consequence to what God decrees. Luther says, "If God foreknows a thing, it necessarily takes place." Therefore, in regard to Jacob and Esau, they did not attain their positions by their own free-will. Romans 9 emphasizes that they were not yet born and that they had not yet done good or evil. Without any works of obedience or disobedience, the one was master and the other was the servant. Jacob was rewarded not on the basis of anything he had done. Jacob was loved and Esau was hated even before the world began. Jacob loved God because God loved him. Therefore the source of salvation is not the free-will of man, but God's eternal decree. Paul is not the great champion of the freedom of the will.

In defense of the literal meaning of Romans 9:21-23, Luther shows that these verses oppose free-will as well. Luther examines the passage in the context of what Paul is saying. The emphasis in the earlier verses is not man, but what God does. He is sovereign in salvation. Here also, the emphasis is the potter. God is sovereign, almighty, and free. Man is enslaved to sin and acts out of necessity according to all God decrees. Luther shows that this is the emphasis of Romans 9 with sound exegetical work.

After refuting the texts to which Erasmus refers, Luther continues to show that Scripture denies the freedom of the will and teaches the sovereignty of God in salvation. He begins with Romans 1:18 which says, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness." Luther says this means all men are ungodly and are unrighteous. Therefore, all deserve the wrath of God. The best a man can do is evil. Referring to Romans 3:9, Luther proves the same thing. Both Jews and Greeks are all under sin. They will and do nothing but evil. Man has no power to seek after good because there is none that doeth good (Ps. 14:3). Therefore, men are "ignorant of and despise God! Here is unbelief, disobedience, sacrilege, blasphemy towards God, cruelty and mercilessness towards one's neighbors and love of self in all things of God and man." Luther's conclusion to the matter is this: man is enslaved to sin.

Man cannot obtain salvation by his works. Romans 3:20 says that by the works of the law no man can be justified in God's sight. It is impossible for a man to merit salvation by his works. Salvation must be the sovereign work of God.

Luther thunders against free-will in connection with Romans 3:21-16 which proclaims salvation by grace alone through faith.58 Free-will is opposed to faith. These are two different ways of salvation. Luther shows that a man cannot be saved by his works, therefore it must be by faith in Jesus Christ. Justification is free, of grace, and without works because man possesses no worthiness for it.

Finally, we notice that Luther points out the comprehensive terms of the apostle Paul to show that there is no free-will in man. All are sinners. There is none that is righteous, and none that doeth good. Paul uses many others also. Therefore, justification and salvation are without works and without the law.

Over against the idea of free-will stands the clear teaching of Scripture. Luther clearly exegetes God's Word to show this. In summary, the truth of predestination denies the free-will of man. Because salvation is by grace and faith, salvation is not by works. Faith and grace are of no avail if salvation is by the works of man. Also, the only thing the law works is wrath. The law displays the unworthiness, sinfulness, and guilt of man. As children of Adam we can do no good. Luther argues along these lines to show that a free-will does not exist in man. Salvation is by grace alone.

The Main Issues and Implications of Each View

Luther is not interested in abstract theological concepts. He does not take up this debate with Erasmus on a purely intellectual level. The main issue is salvation: how does God save? Luther himself defines the issue on which the debate hinges:

So it is not irreligious, idle, or superfluous, but in the highest degree wholesome and necessary, for a Christian to know whether or not his will has anything to do in matters pertaining to salvation…. This is the hinge on which our discussion turns, the crucial issue between us.

Luther finds it necessary to investigate from Scripture what ability the will of man has and how this is related to God and His grace. If one does not know this, he does not know Christianity. Luther brings this against Erasmus because he shows no interest in the truth regarding how it is that some are saved.

Although the broad issue of the debate is how God saves, the specific issue is the sovereignty of God in salvation. The main issue for Luther is that man does not have a free-will by which he merits eternal life, but God sovereignly saves those whom He has chosen.

Luther is pursuing the question, "Is God, God?" This means, is God the omnipotent who reigns over all and who sovereignly saves, or does He depend on man? If God depends on man for anything, then He is not God. Therefore Luther asks the question of himself: Who will try to reform his life, believe, and love God? His answer, "Nobody." No man can do this of himself. He needs God. "The elect, who fear God, will be reformed by the Holy Spirit; the rest will perish unreformed." Luther defends this truth so vigorously because it is the heart of the gospel. God is the sovereign God of salvation. If salvation depends on the works of man, he cannot be saved.

Certain implications necessarily follow from the views of salvation defended by both men. First, we must consider the implications which show the falsehood of Erasmus' view of salvation.

When Erasmus speaks of merit, he is really speaking as a Pelagian. This was offensive to Erasmus because he specifically claimed that he was not a Pelagian. But Luther rightly points out that Erasmus says man merits salvation. According to the idea of merit, man performs an act separate from God, which act is the basis of salvation. He deserves a reward. This is opposed to grace. Therefore, if merit is at all involved, man saves himself. This makes Erasmus no different from the Pelagians except that the Pelagians are honest. Pelagians honestly confess that man merits eternal life. Erasmus tries to give the appearance that he is against the Pelagians although he really is a Pelagian. Packer and Johnston make this analysis:

According to Luther, Erasmus does not succeed in moving closer to the Augustinian position. Instead, he cheapens the purchase of God's grace. Luther says:

The Pelagians base salvation upon works; men work for their own righteousness. But Erasmus has cheapened the price which must be paid for salvation. Because only a small work of man is needed to merit salvation, God is not so great and mighty. Man only needs to choose God and choose the good. God's character is tarnished with the teaching of Erasmus. This semi-Pelagianism is worse than Pelagianism, for little is required to earn salvation. As Packer and Johnston say, "that is to belittle salvation and to insult God."

Another implication of the synergistic view of salvation held to by Erasmus is that God is not God. Because salvation depends upon the free-will of man according to Erasmus, man ascribes divinity to himself. God is not God because He depends upon man. Man himself determines whether or not he will be saved. Therefore the study of soteriology is not the study of what God does in salvation, but soteriology is a study of what man does with God to deserve eternal life.

This means God's grace is not irresistible, but man can reject the grace of God. Man then has more power than God. God watches passively to see what man will do.

Finally, a serious implication of the view of Erasmus is that he denies salvation is found in Jesus Christ alone. In his Diatribe, Erasmus rarely mentions Jesus Christ. This shows something is wrong. This does follow from what Erasmus says. The emphasis for Erasmus is what man must do to be saved and not on what God has done in Jesus Christ. Therefore Jesus Christ is not the only way of salvation and is not that important.

Over against the implications of Erasmus' view are the orthodox implications of Luther's view. God is sovereign in salvation. God elects His people, He sent Jesus Christ, and reveals Jesus Christ only to His people. It is God who turns the enslaved wills of His people so that they seek after Him. Salvation does not depend upon the work of man in any sense.

The basis of salvation is Jesus Christ alone. Because man is enslaved to sin, He must be turned from that sin. He must be saved from that sin through the satisfaction of the justice of God. A man needs the work of Jesus Christ on the cross to be saved. A man needs the new life of Jesus Christ in order to inherit eternal life. The merits of man do not save because he merits nothing with God. A man needs the merits of Jesus Christ for eternal life. A man needs faith by which he is united to Christ.

The source of this salvation is election. God saves only those whom He elects. Those who receive that new life of Christ are those whom God has chosen. God is sovereign in salvation.

Because God is sovereign in salvation, His grace cannot be resisted. Erasmus says that the reason some do not believe is because they reject the grace which God has given to them. Luther implies that God does not show grace to all men. Instead, He saves and shows favor only to those who are His children. In them, God of necessity, efficaciously accomplishes His purpose.

Because man cannot merit eternal life, saving faith is not a work of man by which he merits anything with God. Works do not justify a man. Salvation is the work of God alone in Jesus Christ and through the Holy Spirit. Faith is a gift of God whereby we are united to Jesus Christ and receive the new life found in Him. Even the knowledge and confidence as the activity of faith are the gifts of faith.

Finally, only with this view of salvation that God is sovereign can a man have comfort that he will be saved. Because God is sovereign in salvation and because His counsel is immutable, we cannot fall from the grace of God. He preserves those who are His children. Erasmus could not have this comfort because he held that man determines his own salvation.

The Importance of This Controversy Today

Although this controversy happened almost five hundred years ago, it is significant for the church today. The error of "semi-Pelagianism" is still alive in the church today. Much of the church world sides with Erasmus today, even among those who claim to be "Reformed." If a "Reformed" or Lutheran church denies what Luther says and sides with Erasmus, they despise the reformation of the church in the sixteenth century. They might as well go back to the Roman Catholic Church.

This controversy is important today because many deny that Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation. A man can worship heathen gods and be saved. This follows from making works the basis of salvation. Over against this error, Martin Luther proclaimed the sovereignty of God in salvation. He proclaimed Jesus Christ as the only way of salvation. We must do the same.

The error of Pelagianism attacks the church in many different forms. We have seen that in the history of the Protestant Reformed Churches. The sovereignty of God in salvation has been attacked by the errors of common grace and a conditional covenant. Over against these errors, some in the church world have remained steadfast by the grace of God. God does not love all. Nor does He show favor to all men in the preaching of gospel. Erasmus himself said that God showed grace to all men and God does not hate any man. The Arminians said the same thing at the time of the Synod of Dordt. Yet, men who defend common grace claim to be Reformed. They are not.

Also, in this synergistic view of salvation, we see the principles of the bilateral, conditional covenant view which is in many "Reformed" churches. If God and man work together in salvation, then the covenant must be a pact in which both God and man must hold up each one's end of the agreement. Over against this we must proclaim the sovereignty of God in salvation especially in regard to the covenant. The covenant is not conditional and bilateral. God works unconditionally and unilaterally in the covenant of grace.

Finally, we must apply the truth of the sovereignty of God defended by Luther to ourselves. We could say there is a Pelagian in all of us. We know God sovereignly saves, but we often show by our practice that we proudly want to sneak a few of our works in the back door. We must depend upon God for all things.

May this truth which Martin Luther defended, the truth of the sovereignty of God in salvation, be preserved in the church.


TOPICS: History; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: bondageofthewill; catholic; christalone; erasmus; faithalone; gracealone; luther; martinluther; protestant; reformation; savedbygracealone; scripturealone; solascriptura; thegoodnews
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To: HarleyD; kosta50; Forest Keeper; Cronos; annalex; Gamecock
"What your real gripe is, is simply that God doesn’t do this for everyone. This is incomprehensible to your Greek thought process. Instead you would rather rationalize that God offers everyone, everything and only a few accept His offer. Sorry. This isn’t the God of scripture. He makes choices and does what He pleases. And everything is perfectly right, holy and just regardless of what we think."

Harley, 2 Peter 3 says:

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

More cosmic game playing, Harley, or does +Peter know something Calvinists don't? Maybe Peter was just a Greek and without the inspiration of God or the influence of clearly superior 16th century Western European understanding of God? Poor +Peter, if only he'd been born in Geneva he might not have fallen into such error!

2,651 posted on 02/14/2006 5:45:13 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; HarleyD; annalex; jo kus; Cronos

"God promises that He will keep His own, so such a person would not have been kept, making their salvation impossible. The point is the permanency, not whether a person makes an occasional mistake."

Sounds like once saved always saved, FK. What about this? These fellows (Hymenaeus and Alexander) apparently had the faith, or so +Paul would have us believe, but then rejected it:

"Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight, holding on to faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and so have shipwrecked their faith." 1 Timothy 1:18-19

The issue of apostasy comes up many times in the NT, especially in the Epistles.


2,652 posted on 02/14/2006 5:58:05 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: HarleyD; kosta50

"From your perspective doesn't God look down that "corridor of time" and see who those people are who will fall away? Why would they be saved in the first place if God knows tomorrow they will fall away?"

God doesn't look down a corridor of time. What is time to God? This is an anthropomorphism, just like "pre" destination. It can only have meaning for us but tells us nothing about God or what God "sees".


2,653 posted on 02/14/2006 6:00:42 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: HarleyD; jo kus

"Paul is presuming they are filled with the Holy Spirit and have been chosen of God. And so should we. People fall away but they were never saved to begin with."

Then why does he warn us, and them, so continually about falling away or being "cut off"?


2,654 posted on 02/14/2006 6:06:54 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; jo kus; Forest Keeper
All men, Harley, not just the "elect". Is God exercising divine self dillusion? Or do these two passages point out the bankruptcy of the Calvinist position and support The Church's understanding of God's foreknowledge but not predestination?

It's a mystery.

Just kidding. :O)

Is it really God's desire that "all men" come to the knowledge of the truth? If God wanted "ALL" men to come to the knowledge of the truth He would bring them to the knowledge of the truth. Consider this other passage:

It is God who grants that we may repent and this leads to the knowledge of the truth. If it was God's desire for ALL men to come to the knowledge of the truth, He would grant that everyone repent which, of course, we know doesn't happen. If you want further proof consider:

There are some who never come to the knowledge of the truth. It is God that grants this capability and He discriminates to who He gives it to.

Therefore, your interpretation has to be incorrect that God wants all men to come to the knowledge of the truth. He doesn't. So what does 1 Tim 2:3-4 mean? It can only be interpreted as a general statement that it is God's desire that men from all stations of life come to Him as He so draws them and grants that they may repent.

2,655 posted on 02/14/2006 6:11:09 PM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: HarleyD; kosta50; jo kus; Forest Keeper

"...who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

"Therefore, your interpretation has to be incorrect that God wants all men to come to the knowledge of the truth. He doesn't. So what does 1 Tim 2:3-4 mean? It can only be interpreted as a general statement that it is God's desire that men from all stations of life come to Him as He so draws them and grants that they may repent."

Gee, HD, I just took a look at the Greek. Maybe my English translation was wrong, but...nope. The Greek says exactly what the English says.

Um, HD, you really ought to quote a little more from 2 Timothy, like the verses before and after 25:

"And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient,
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

HD, "And that they may RECOVER THEMSELVES" out of the snare...." Wow, men can do something for themselves?

As for 2 Timothy 3:7, well once again, what came before that verse and after?

"3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3:3 [[Without natural affection,]] trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all [men], as theirs also was.


2,656 posted on 02/14/2006 6:25:16 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: HarleyD
You feel that a person is free to cooperate or not cooperate in their salvation. I feel that God changes the heart so we will cooperate with God during salvation. After we are saved there are periods of time when we will rebel simply because of our fleshy nature. But God understands and will bring us back to a point of cooperating with Him.

God changes your heart so we will cooperate - true. But the simple fact that we have those brief periods of following our fleshy selves (or longer periods...) should be enough evidence to convince you that you DO have free will to NOT choose God. If God steered you on every action, you wouldn't sin. You sinning AFTER your regeneration proves that you are not completely transformed (or completely "saved"). I think the point, though, is that man does cooperate - but you seem to believe we differ greatly here. We both agree that God begins to change our hearts, ever-so-slowly, it seems, into a "natural" heart (I take Ez to mean the one God gave Adam before the first sin).

I am claiming the title of "elect" based upon what God has said in His word. I have always put great store in the word of God and I noticed that the Catholic Church has as well believing it to be written by the "finger of God" if you will.

My argument is with those who believe they are ABSOLUTELY saved. I believe we know too many people who have made that claim - and then fall away. Yes, the Word of God says that we can be assured we will be saved, but I think that this presumes we will continue along our path - thus, over and over, we see the theme of judgment based on our actions in the New Testament. It's not quite done yet!

The Bible is the ONLY thing that can be believed

LOL! No, I think I'll just disagree and leave it at that! We are closing in on 3000 posts...

there are plenty of Christians in scripture who KNEW they were Christians. In fact THEY CALLED THEMSELVES CHRISTIANS. You can ONLY know your own heart and Paul states to "Examine yourself to see if you are in the faith".

Sure there are those who CALL themselves Christians. But it is more than a name, correct? How about this definition of a Christian:

"A person who loves pleasure, seeks comfort, flies from any suffering, is overanxious, complains, blames and is impatient at the least thing not in his favor is a Christian in NAME ONLY. If anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself daily and follow me. (Luke 9:23)" From St. John Vianney.

Quite a definition. But I think if you read even some Protesant Christian's works of such great men as Dietrich Bonhoffer's (Discipleship), you will learn they agree. We REALLY find Christ in our self-denials... To those who make the claim to be "Christian", I remind them to look to Matthew 7:21 - "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens." I also will point to the parable of the cockle and the wheat, a parable about the visible Church, the community of God. Some will end up being cockles in the end - and no one else will recognize them! Cockles and wheat look identical, it is only the harvester who will recognize them. Thus, the servants don't pull them up now. The same of us in the Church. No one can really be sure whether they are cockle or wheat... Although I will agree we have an idea of ourselves.

It is too easy to convince oneself that he is a Christian. Actions speak louder than words. Faith is seen. To follow Christ, we must "become" another Christ.

People fall away all the time these days. They go to some sort of rally, get a big Christian high, and then end up going back to the lives they were leading. How many came to World Day (or whatever it was called) and slipped back? To you it looks like they "lost" their salvation. I would say they never had it to begin with.

I understand where you are coming from. I think we use the term "saved" differently. We tend to refer to salvation as what happens in the future. We consider the point of our regeneration (Baptism) as initial justification. We are righteous in God's eyes. This righteousness status will change - which is what you are talking about, I believe. Thus, a person, to us, isn't losing their salvation, but moves in and out of righteousness in God's eyes.

He surely won't let me go now after He has spent 30+ years on me.

How many people made it out of Egypt, Harley? How many were "saved" from the Pharaoh? Many thousands, according to Scripture. And how many made it to the promised Land? Two of the original? Paul makes this perfectly clear that this is an example for us today (in 1 Cor 10:1-12). Many are "saved" by Baptism - but this doesn't mean "saved" for eternal heaven. The Jews were an example, a model for us not to get overconfident, just as Paul discusses in Romans when he warns us that we can be cut off the tree, just like the Jews were. We can only hope that WE don't let HIM down! (note, you understand that I am not saying "by myself"?!) He has done everything short of drag us into heaven. It is our attachments to the flesh that keep us from Him.

In the end you say God saves a person today not knowing if He will be saved tomorrow. Wouldn't it be just as well to jump in front of a bus after you've been baptized?

LOL! No. I don't say that we don't "know", just that we should not be overconfident on what will happen five years from now in our lives. We SHOULD be secure that the Lord will continue to bless us. It is now to us to utilize His graces and continue to grow and become sanctified. We trust in God's mercy.

Regards

2,657 posted on 02/14/2006 7:03:42 PM PST by jo kus
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To: Kolokotronis

I wish I had more time to read St John Chrysostom. Wonderful explanation on Adam's removal from the Garden.

Thanks again for the Father's quotes.

I recall that it is a teaching of the Fathers that Christ, upon His descent into Hades, first went to Adam to bring him to heaven with him...

Brother in Chrsit


2,658 posted on 02/14/2006 7:09:16 PM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus

"I recall that it is a teaching of the Fathers that Christ, upon His descent into Hades, first went to Adam to bring him to heaven with him..."

Yes, that is a theologoumenon. I've heard it too. The icon I posted would seem to indicate otherwise, but its fairly modern. Some very old ones I've seen in Mistras in Greece don't show any of the prophets of King David etc, but rather just show Adam and Eve.


2,659 posted on 02/14/2006 7:14:08 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; jo kus
Throughout the history of The Church, the Fathers and other holy people have continually warned us of the truly astonishing power of The Evil One over all of us and advise us that our lives will be a constant struggle with him and his minions. Your belief as outlined above, is just about the most dangerous thing any Christian can believe.

LOL! Well, I'm a dangerous man. :) I was talking about resident demons, a la Mark 5. That's why I said "no room at the inn" and mentioned the movie. (I still do believe that.) I do fully believe that we are in a constant state of spiritual warfare against satan, and that he constantly attacks us. Yes, I have experienced the example you used during a church service. I didn't know there was a name for that, "Logismoi". It's interesting.

"The whole essence and effort of the devil is to separate and remove our attention from God and entice it toward worldly concerns and pleasures. ... +John Chrysostomos

This one is my favorite. It's very true.

2,660 posted on 02/14/2006 8:14:44 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: jo kus; Kolokotronis
Good points and perfectly in line with Paul's warnings in Romans 7 - that so few Calvinists enjoy reading about.

Hey, wait a minute! :) You know I love my Bible. What are these teachings in Romans 7 that I don't like?

2,661 posted on 02/14/2006 8:33:25 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50
Thanks for the comparison to the terrorists.

No, we're just comparing some aspects of some Protestant groups' theology to Islamiic theology.

Islamm is to a large extent a Christian heresy -- or rather BASED on a Christian heresy (Arianism) with mixtures of Zoroastrianism and pre-Isslamic arab paganism. It essentially reduces religion to one word: "submit" -- that's the meaning of the word Islamm. There is no room for free will or choice or anything in that religion. If you have a bad ruler, submit, that's better than discord.
2,662 posted on 02/14/2006 9:10:39 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia! Ultra-Catholic)
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To: Forest Keeper

again, repeating, we do NOT consider fellow Christians to be akin to terrorirsts. I disagree with your views on certain theological aspects, but you do believe in the Triune God and do ascribe to the Nicene creed.


2,663 posted on 02/14/2006 9:14:56 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia! Ultra-Catholic)
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To: Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper; kosta50
Arianism, by the way, was very widespread in the West, though it arose in the East, for centuries and it was taught by people who thought they were reading the scriptures quite correctly. They ignored the teachings of The Church.

Yes, a good place to start is at www.newadvent.com --> seems that the Goths were converted to Arianism sometime in the East (no one knows when or by whom) and reached and conquered the West which was Orthodox-Catholic. However, they were overthrown by the Franks who were CAtholic and so formed the Holy Roman Empire which had a religious unity between the rulers and the population.
2,664 posted on 02/14/2006 9:19:17 PM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11. Restore Hagia Sophia! Ultra-Catholic)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis
You know I love my Bible. What are these teachings in Romans 7 that I don't like?

The fact that even the great St. Paul still had to fight against the temptations of the flesh - despite his regenerated status. In other words, God did not take control of St. Paul's will to desire the things of the spirit entirely. He had to battle, in fear and trembling. The path to Christ is a narrow one, FK. St. Thomas Aquinas said that grace does not overwhelm nature. We must continue to fight - it is a slow process that CAN end in failure. This is not in line with Calvinist teachings.

Regards

2,665 posted on 02/15/2006 3:59:44 AM PST by jo kus
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; Forest Keeper; Cronos; annalex; Gamecock
"...through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:6-7

I would suggest that you have the emphasis on the wrong part of the text. Peter is talking to believers. Please keep in mind that 2 Peter 3 is comparing now to the great flood. The "not wanting anyone to perish" refers to believers who must come to repentance.

"...More cosmic game playing, Harley"

And precisely who is it WHO brings us to repentance?

"and, "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. 1 Peter 2:8

2,666 posted on 02/15/2006 4:15:59 AM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: HarleyD; kosta50; Forest Keeper; Cronos; annalex; Gamecock

"The "not wanting anyone to perish" refers to believers who must come to repentance."

Seems to me +Peter could have said that. Greek is a marvelously precise language, you know. Its some of the more recent translations and interpretations which are a bit strained.


2,667 posted on 02/15/2006 4:24:22 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; jo kus
Then why does he warn us, and them, so continually about falling away or being "cut off"?

Do you have a verse. I'm not Mr. Answerman but I can give it a good shot. I will say there are a handful of problematic verses on this side of the tracks but they are significantly fewer than on the other side. I know. I've been there and I'm parroting all the verses that have troubled me for 30+ years. I don't get an explanation of what it is to be sealed with the Holy Spirit, what a new heart and new spirit means, how a Christian is born again, or what it means to be a "slave to righteousness". I throw out literally hundreds of verses (like my tagline) and all I get is, "Well, it's a mystery." All I hear is that we have "free will" although the Bible really doesn't state that.

Here's another:

What is He guarding that you have entrusted (past tense) to Him?

2,668 posted on 02/15/2006 4:33:27 AM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: Kolokotronis; kosta50; Forest Keeper; Cronos; annalex; Gamecock
Seems to me +Peter could have said that. Greek is a marvelously precise language, you know.

He did say it. I would suggest you are misreading what he is stating. I read the "all come to repentence" as referring back to Peter's statement "patient with you".

2,669 posted on 02/15/2006 4:41:52 AM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: jo kus
But the simple fact that we have those brief periods of following our fleshy selves (or longer periods...) should be enough evidence to convince you that you DO have free will to NOT choose God. If God steered you on every action, you wouldn't sin.

My argument is with those who believe they are ABSOLUTELY saved. I believe we know too many people who have made that claim - and then fall away. Yes, the Word of God says that we can be assured we will be saved, but I think that this presumes we will continue along our path

No, I think I'll just disagree and leave it at that! We are closing in on 3000 posts...We REALLY find Christ in our self-denials... It is too easy to convince oneself that he is a Christian. Actions speak louder than words. Faith is seen. To follow Christ, we must "become" another Christ.

How many people made it out of Egypt, Harley? How many were "saved" from the Pharaoh? Many thousands, according to Scripture.


2,670 posted on 02/15/2006 5:59:36 AM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: HarleyD
For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day." 2 Tim 1:12 What is He guarding that you have entrusted (past tense) to Him?

The Deposit of Faith. What else did Paul give Timothy? Paul layed his hands upon him and conferred to him the Holy Spirit, giving him authority to preach and teach, to bind and loosen, to forgive sins, and all of the other things that bishops were to do. Thus, the Holy Spirit will guard this power given to Timothy as well as the Deposit of Faith, the Apostolic Teachings.

Regards

2,671 posted on 02/15/2006 7:11:33 AM PST by jo kus
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To: HarleyD
Free will when? As believers? We can make choices to follow God or grieve/quench the Holy Spirit but from our sin we learn lessons and grow stronger.

As believers, yes. We SHOULD learn lessons and grow stronger, but I know of people whom the opposite had happened. The point of "testing" us is pretty clear. Some will be found wanting.

In the end all that ANY of us can do is look to our own salvation. We can rest in our faith trusting that Christ will keep what we have entrusted to Him. We’re the only one who truly knows our hearts and attitude towards God, how we came to know the Lord and how God has kept us on the path through all these years.

We should help others, but we can't know their status with God. I think sometimes we don't even know our OWN status! Sin clouds our vision. I am not so sure that people fully know their own hearts and attitudes. It is much too easy to "sincerely" think you are on the right path. Consider all of the various cults, members who vividly believe they are heaven-bound and all else are going to hell. They sincerely believe this - and they fool themselves. Man can very easily do this. That is why we should approach Jesus more humbly - rather than as a person "already saved" for heaven.

Some believe simply throwing a few coins in the collection plate is enough while others flagellate themselves and literally hang themselves on crosses one a year to “share” in Christ’s suffering. How much is enough?

To the first, like I said before, people can convince themselves quite easily of their righteousness or status in God's eyes. Of the latter, the Church has always said that bodily mortification should be done under the supervision of a spiritual advisor. Too easy to become proud in those or get carried away. I have found that each culture views such things differently, so I don't look down too much on such. I find it strange, but if it brings them closer to God, then so be it.

I would say that we find Christ in our weaknesses. It is recognizing we are unable to keep God’s standards that make us fall to our knees and beg for mercy. Anything that we do is because of Christ-not ourselves.

That is true, but only the first step. We cannot hope to come to Christ unless we put aside the desires of the flesh, as Paul tells us. It is one thing to say abstractly "It's all God", and quite another to give until it hurts, or go out of your way to help someone else, or to serve another in humility, even when they treat you poorly. All of that is being Christ-like. It is much more than recognizing that God deserves all praise!

According to scripture these were all “unbelievers” that God saved from Pharaoh and never trusted God for His salvation

That is an "after-action" report! However, after all of the Jews came through the Red Sea, didn't they commit to the covenant when Moses brought them the Decalogue? Weren't they solemnly affirming the Lord God and to follow His Commandments? Didn't they build the Ark of the Covenant for Him? Didn't they SEE the power of God, not only in the Reed Sea crossing, but in the manna from heaven and water from the rock? Yet, they continued to grumble - they lost their faith. All of these "saved" people were punished by NOT seeing the promised Land (which Christians see as a typology of our journey to heaven).

No, Paul is pretty clear that those Jews who died were not unsaved heathen rabble going along for the show. They were "SAVED" Jews, saved from the sin of slavery of Egypt through the waters of "regeneration"... However, MANY fell away - they built a Golden Calf, they complained, they worshiped idols. And they died without finding "rest". Paul sets this up as an example to persevere. Look at 1 Cor 10:12 - this is not being said to unbelievers!

Regards

2,672 posted on 02/15/2006 7:33:42 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus
That is an "after-action" report! ...No, Paul is pretty clear that those Jews who died were not unsaved heathen rabble going along for the show. They were "SAVED" Jews, saved from the sin of slavery of Egypt through the waters of "regeneration"

An “after-action” report??? That’s a new one. I didn’t realize God gave reports to us. :O)

You are adding your interpretation and assuming they “lost” their faith. God divided the sea, led them by a cloud, fed and water them, and still they wanted more from God. They questioned God’s sovereignty (“Can God do X???") and never believed that God was able to do the thing He had promise. There He was in full view on Mount Sinai surrounded by the cloud and still they made a golden calf and claimed THAT was the God who brought them out of Egypt. If there is any case of man’s uttered depravity it was at this moment. Even after God’s righteous wrath smote the “stoutest” ones they still rebelled. We are told in Psalms 78:22:

We are also told they worshipped other gods:

Paul is perfectly consistent with Psalms 78 in that the Jews lack of faith was evident in their grumbling. As you can see by Psalms 78 it plainly states that they “did not believe in God” and they “did not trust” Him.

What then is the meaning of 1 Corinthians 12? It is simply the outward call of Paul telling people they must believe and to examine themselves.

BTW-And less I get the "Ah-Ha. Gotcha nasty old Calvinist. Doesn’t Psalms 78 indicate the Jews could repent to God.” All of this is shown as a historical lesson for record. It is an “outward call”. As we see later, God tells these people that they will die in the wilderness and their children will come into the land. God raised up the next generation that, for a time, followed after Him fulfilling His promise. It wasn't based upon the choice of the children.

2,673 posted on 02/15/2006 10:36:11 AM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: jo kus; kosta50
When a righteous person sins, is he then wicked? Does he then become as Paul describes in Romans 3:10-13 "...

Assuming by "righteous" you mean what I would call "saved", then 'no', he is not a wicked person, he has just done a wicked thing. He does not become as Paul describes in your passage. There Paul describes all people before salvation.

Does Paul literally mean that no men are righteous, or is he merely quoting from the Psalms to PROVE the beginning of Romans 3:1 ...

Yes, Paul literally means that no men are righteous before God on their own.

If Paul literally means what he is saying, as you claim, then no one is righteous, vs. what other Scriptures say that men ARE righteous. And certainly, Jesus is ALSO righteous. By this argument, then, we don't understand Paul as saying that all men are wicked and no man seeks out the Lord. Time and time again, the Scripture exhorts and rewards those who do. Now, suddenly, no one seeks out the Lord?

No one is righteous in his nature when born. All of the elect are righteous in God's sight after salvation. No wicked person would ever seek out the Lord. God gives grace to those whom He will, and then they seek the Lord.

FK: "We do know what Paul thought about Mary. In all of his Biblical writings he never made a single exception for her being sinless."

An argument from silence is a lousy argument. ... If Christians believe that Mary was sinless - and no one disagreed, then perhaps Paul did teach that she was - or perhaps Mary was still alive and Paul wouldn't teach it out of humility for Mary's sake.

But your whole argument is based on silence, isn't it? The standard for you is much stricter because you are making the positive argument. You are saying "look at all this non-evidence, therefore it must be so." :) Just in your above, you use "if" for two ideas, and "perhaps" for two conclusions.

Paul does NOT say that Jesus is the only sinless person in Romans 3. Thus, Paul (and the Spirit) leave room for exceptions to the universal "all".

An argument from silence is a lousy argument. ... :)

2,674 posted on 02/15/2006 11:54:59 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: HarleyD
An “after-action” report??? That’s a new one. I didn’t realize God gave reports to us. :O)

Sure! The whole Bible is God's "report" to us about His love.

You are adding your interpretation and assuming they “lost” their faith

I think it is clear that they DID lose their faith. Does the Scripture report that some of the Jews did not believe that the Decalogue was from God? Did some of the Jews sit the covenant agreement, the sprinkling of the blood by Moses? No, they were all there. They all crossed, they all were saved from the Egyptians (sin), they all promised to obey the commandments. Modern day Christians do the same thing today, brother... Can you deny that some believe with all of their heart that they are saved, and then fall away, just as the Jews did in the desert? Your quotes from the Psalms merely explain the "latter" falling away. But those same people all agreed to follow the Commandments and they all came through the Reed Sea. They were all "saved"...

Paul is perfectly consistent with Psalms 78 in that the Jews lack of faith was evident in their grumbling. As you can see by Psalms 78 it plainly states that they “did not believe in God” and they “did not trust” Him.

AFTERWARDS. They first DID and later did NOT.

As we see later, God tells these people that they will die in the wilderness and their children will come into the land. God raised up the next generation that, for a time, followed after Him fulfilling His promise. It wasn't based upon the choice of the children.

I would think there was an element of choice present, but God has His own agenda. My point, however, is that the "saved" can and do fall away, not about God's free will to elect whom He will. Paul uses those Jews as an example to beware, not to fall away, a REAL possibility that Paul warns of in 1 Cor 10 and Hebrews 3,4. Besides those specific Jews, Paul tells the Corinthians and Galatians that certain actions will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. In each case, Paul is talking about people who were "saved" - but the salvation is not done yet.

Regards

2,675 posted on 02/15/2006 12:11:30 PM PST by jo kus
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To: kosta50; jo kus
While the Orthodox Church certainly considers Theotokos to be immaculate in every others way, by her own choice to obey God, she is as human and capable of sinning as any one of us.

You're right, Kosta, I wasn't clear on your take. Thanks for the info. And, just to be sure, you are saying that Mary could have sinned, but all through her life she chose not to, so she was sinless in terms of "performance"?

2,676 posted on 02/15/2006 1:32:56 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: HarleyD; jo kus; Kolokotronis
1 Jo 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Jo said: "Regarding 1Jo 5:18, I would say John is talking about willfully sinning in a grievious manner, not the smaller sins of our daily lives. I admit that John is not very clear on this issue in this epistle - first, he admits we all sin, then he says that those who sin are of the devil. A minor sin, one that John would not consider "deadly", would not turn the man to evil, so perhaps this is what John is discussing.

This is a confusing verse. It looks like Jo's thinking is along the lines of Matthew Henry. Here is what he said: (Kolo, I pinged you re: our "demon discussion")

"Here we have,

I. A recapitulation of the privileges and advantages of sound Christian believers. 1. They are secured against sin, against the fulness of its dominion or the fulness of its guilt: We know that whosoever is born of God (and the believer in Christ is born of God, v. 1) sinneth not (v. 18), sinneth not with that fulness of heart and spirit that the unregenerate do (as was said ch. iii. 6, 9), and consequently not with that fulness of guilt that attends the sins of others; and so he is secured against that sin which is unavoidably unto death, or which infallibly binds the sinner over unto the wages of eternal death; the new nature, and the inhabitation of the divine Spirit thereby, prevent the admission of such unpardonable sin.

2. They are fortified against the devil's destructive attempts: He that is begotten of God keepeth himself, that is, is enabled to guard himself, and the wicked one toucheth him not (v. 18), that is, that the wicked one may not touch him, namely, to death. It seems not to be barely a narration of the duty or the practice of the regenerate; but an indication of their power by virtue of their regeneration.

They are thereby prepared and principled against the fatal touches, the sting, of the wicked one; he touches not their souls, to infuse his venom there as he does in others, or to expel that regenerative principle which is an antidote to his poison, or to induce them to that sin which by the gospel constitution conveys an indissoluble obligation to eternal death. He may prevail too far with them, to draw them to some acts of sin; but it seems to be the design of the apostle to assert that their regeneration secures them from such assaults of the devil as will bring them into the same case and actual condemnation with the devil.

2,677 posted on 02/15/2006 2:23:26 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50; jo kus
Mary could have sinned, but all through her life she chose not to

I don't believe the Catholic Church teaches any different in that regard; in fact Mary's free will is a very important part of Catholic mariology. It is a misunderstanding of the doctrine of Immaculate Conception to say that Mary was incapable of sinning. Right, Jo?

2,678 posted on 02/15/2006 2:54:37 PM PST by annalex
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To: HarleyD; Kolokotronis; kosta50; jo kus; Forest Keeper
So what does 1 Tim 2:3-4 mean? It can only be interpreted as a general statement that it is God's desire that men from all stations of life come to Him as He so draws them and grants that they may repent.

This is the explanation offered by Calvin:

Hence we see the childish folly of those who represent this passage to be opposed to predestination. “If God” say they, “wishes all men indiscriminately to be saved, it is false that some are predestined by his eternal purpose to salvation, and others to perdition.” They might have had some ground for saying this, if Paul were speaking here about individual men; although even then we should not have wanted the means of replying to their argument; for, although the will of God ought not to be judged from his secret decrees, when he reveals them to us by outward signs, yet it does not therefore follow that he has not determined with himself what he intends to do as to every individual man.

But I say nothing on that subject, because it has nothing to do with this passage; for the Apostle simply means, that there is no people and no rank in the world that is excluded from salvation; because God wishes that the gospel should be proclaimed to all without exception. Now the preaching of the gospel gives life; and hence he justly concludes that God invites all equally to partake salvation. But the present discourse relates to classes of men, and not to individual persons; for his sole object is, to include in this number princes and foreign nations.

(Commentary on Timothy, Titus, Philemon)

This is the relevant passage (1 Timothy 1, 2):
I give thanks who hath strengthened me, even to Christ Jesus our Lord, for that he hath counted me faithful, putting me in the ministry; 13 Who before was a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and contumelious. But I obtained the mercy of God, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14 Now the grace of our Lord hath abounded exceedingly with faith and love, which is in Christ Jesus. 15 A faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into this world to save sinners, of whom I am the chief.

16 But for this cause have I obtained mercy: that in me first Christ Jesus might shew forth all patience, for the information of them that shall believe in him unto life everlasting. 17 Now to the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. 18 This precept I commend to thee, O son Timothy; according to the prophecies going before on thee, that thou war in them a good warfare, 19 Having faith and a good conscience, which some rejecting have made shipwreck concerning the faith. 20 Of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander, whom I have delivered up to Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Chapter 2

1 I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: 2 For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus: 6 Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times.

Let us summarize. Three examples of sinners are given

It is after gallery of sinners is painted that Timothy is urged to make "supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings". Note, in particular, that Timothy is to intercede for them, and ask that truth be revealed to them. It is meaningless to ask for conversion of a reprobate already predestined to Hell, is it not? If Paul repeated the word "all men" three times in this passage meaning "men of all stations" why did he specifically single out "all that are in high station"? If the intercessions were to be made for the faithful only, why mention the faithless Hymeneus and Alexander and the kings? And if the intercessions are indeed to be offered for all individual men, but God wished only the elect to be saved, why is the divine wish thus interpreted used to urge intercessions for all including the reprobates?

Calvin's attempt to cram his theological speculation of limited atonement into this context is nothing but fraud. It would be excusable to skim 1 Timothy 2:1-5 alone, discover that it is talking about kings and hastily conclude that "all" means "men of all social class". But Calvin has just gone over the first chapter and commented (feebly but lengthily) on Hymeneus and Alexander. He saw the context. He just wants to lead us away from it.

2,679 posted on 02/15/2006 3:35:15 PM PST by annalex
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus
you are saying that Mary could have sinned, but all through her life she chose not to...

Correct, that is the teaching of the Gree Church and the Latin Church, the details of which are a source of one of the major theological disagreements between us and the Latins and its roots are in +Augustine's concept of the "original sin."

2,680 posted on 02/15/2006 3:39:32 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; HarleyD; jo kus

FK, your conclusion runs up against 2100 years of scriptural exegesis by The Church. You know, I really think it comes down to those differing understandings of theosis. For us, once one attains theosis, which as I have said is extremely rare in this mortal state, one would be completely safe, but until then one wouldn't be.

I suspect I sound like a broken record, but how could the God bearing Fathers who put the canon of the NT together be so, so wrong in this absolutely vital area? Every single Father, except perhaps +Augustine and arguably Origen (who was condemned for a teaching something like what you are proposing though a bit broader), agrees on this. Much of the Protestant sola scriptura mentality seems founded in a reaction against Rome, the medieval structure and theology of which many extend back in time to at least the Emperor Constantine. In a way I don't blame the Protestants for doing this since if one listened only to Rome for most of the past 600 years one would think that the Church looked like the Church of Alexander VI right back to the Apostles. But that simply isn't true as both history and the writings of the Fathers amply demonstrate. I don't doubt that that is a hard mentality to overcome, but if you desire to understand, if not accept, the theology of The Church on theosis, you have to take off two pairs of glasses; one that of Protestantism and the second a very old medieval Roman pair. I am not suggesting that you will then ipso facto become Orthodox. I am suggesting that you will recognize the innovation which the Reformers wrought. At that point, having compared that innovation with what The Church had uniformly believed up to that point, you can determine if in fact God did something entirely new and innovative through the Reformers.


2,681 posted on 02/15/2006 3:43:05 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: annalex
You set out to show me how the Gospel contradicts the immaculate conception, and I showed you in 2451 and the post that had lead to it, that it does not. If your point was that the Gospel can be explained also without the doctrine of Immaculate Conception, then I have no objection; it can be explained that way as well.

Well, I don't mind if we have an honest disagreement on interpretation, but I do want to be clear on one thing. I thought your argument was never that the Bible supported a sinless Mary, it was that it didn't prohibit it. The Bible also doesn't prohibit space aliens from coming and living among us. :) So, isn't the best you can hope for that it's possible Mary was sinless? I still don't see anything in the Bible that actively says or suggests that Mary was sinless.

2,682 posted on 02/15/2006 3:43:44 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: annalex

ping #2680


2,683 posted on 02/15/2006 3:44:45 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: annalex
My point is that Matthew is not saying anything about the marital relations of St. Joseph and St. Mary in that verse, neither by way of knowledge of conjecture.

But you said Matthew didn't know. How could he have spent so much time with Jesus and not known whether or not Jesus had biological half-siblings? He must have known. That strengthens the "until" view.

2,684 posted on 02/15/2006 3:48:40 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper

Mary was sinless because reason compels her, as Mother of God, to be, and because that is the simplest conclusion to make from the analogy with the Ark of the Covenant, the verse about the royal gate that opens only once, and the "full of grace" language. It is also a belief that came straight from the apostolic times.

The fact that scripture alone can be interpreted away from the apostolic tradition should not surprise you. We generally don't think that the scripture can even be understood in general terms without it, -- witness all the off-the-cliff apostates who read the scripture as closely as the mariophobes do.


2,685 posted on 02/15/2006 3:52:50 PM PST by annalex
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To: Forest Keeper

"I still don't see anything in the Bible that actively says or suggests that Mary was sinless."

I'm off to the priest's house for a little snake bite medicine, so I'll probably comment at length later, but you might be interested to know that +John Chrysostomos agreed with you and believed she did sin at least once, at the Wedding Feast at Cana. The Church and the other Fathers reject that.


2,686 posted on 02/15/2006 3:53:37 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Forest Keeper

First, following Jesus in his adult ministry did not entitle Matthew to any particular insight into Mary's precise relation to the "brothers" of Jesus. Second, it was simply not Matthew's focus, in either of the passages, to convey either knowledge or speculation that he might have had.


2,687 posted on 02/15/2006 3:57:01 PM PST by annalex
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To: Forest Keeper
Assuming by "righteous" you mean what I would call "saved", then 'no', he is not a wicked person, he has just done a wicked thing. He does not become as Paul describes in your passage. There Paul describes all people before salvation.

I disagree. Paul is not talking about “before salvation” and “after salvation”. That is a just not there in the text! The words are never mentioned. Consider reading Romans 2 and 3 again. Paul is not talking about people before they are saved are wicked! First of all, Romans 2 shows that people have a law written on their hearts (placed there by God). Consider the following passage:

“Tribulation and anguish [shall be] upon every human soul that does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek; but glory, honour, and peace to everyone that works good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified; for when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature that which is of the law, these, not having the law, are a law unto themselves; which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, accusing and also excusing their reasonings one with another)” Romans 2:9-14

First, even the “saved” Jew, the one who proudly bragged about their law, will be judged on whether they do evil. They are not saved by being born of the flesh of Abraham. That includes Greeks, as well. See, the judgment is based on whether one does good or not – and this includes Greeks! Note, Paul attacks the source of pride of the Judaizers, the Law. “as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law”. – The doers of the Law will be justified, not just those who hear it. Jesus Himself says this in Matthew 7:21:

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in the heavens”

Next, we have the Law written even on the Gentile’s hearts – our conscience. It is placed there by God. If we obey it, if we fulfill this Law written on our hearts, we will be justified, as Paul says. And of course, this presumes that it is done in Christ – even those who do NOT know Christ (those who love know God). So what Paul is saying is summed up at the end of Romans 2:

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is done outwardly in the flesh, but he [is] a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit [and] not in the letter, whose praise is not of men, but of God

Thus, a saved person, one of God, a son of Abraham by faith, is not of the flesh, but of the spirit – one who walks in faith. Whether a person follows the Decalogue and the Mosaic Law, or whether one follows the Law written on their hearts, a person IS A JEW, one of the people of God – a member of the Church, as I have described so long ago.

In Romans 3, Paul continues his assault on the proud Jews who think they are saved because they are of the flesh of Abraham. He brings up a veritable litany from the Old Testament Psalms. Unless you read the context of those Psalms, you will become confused and will not get what Paul is talking about. In each case, Paul is quoting many Psalms written by David against JEWS. There were wicked Jews pursuing David, and David wrote Psalms against them, saying that they never followed God, that they were foolish, etc. Use your Bible and go to those Psalms noted in Romans 3. You will find in each case that it is Paul charging the “saved” Jews of being wicked, just as David did 1000 years before. THEY were wicked – while the Gentiles were open to the Word of God.

Continuing in Chapter 4, Paul delivers the coup de grace by reminding them that Abraham was declared righteous BEFORE he was circumcised, the ultimate initiation ritual for the Jew, what separated them from the Gentile. By pointing out the futility of relying on their human heritage to show they were “saved”, Paul points to the REAL message of the Bible (even the OT), that man is saved by Faith in God…

All this other stuff that ALL men are evil and do not follow God totally misses the point of Romans 2-4 and Paul’s attack on the self-righteous Judaizers. Paul is merely quoting OT Scriptures to point out that the Jews were no better than the Gentiles as a group. Look again to Romans 2 and the quote above and you will find that is the premise of Paul’s discussion in this section.

No one is righteous in his nature when born. All of the elect are righteous in God's sight after salvation. No wicked person would ever seek out the Lord. God gives grace to those whom He will, and then they seek the Lord.

True. But it is not what Paul is talking about here.

But your whole argument is based on silence, (regarding Mary) isn't it? The standard for you is much stricter because you are making the positive argument. You are saying "look at all this non-evidence, therefore it must be so." :) Just in your above, you use "if" for two ideas, and "perhaps" for two conclusions.

No. Catholics use many arguments that converge to tell us that Mary was sinless. We do not rely solely on the absence of something in Scripture to point out that “Mary is a sinner because it doesn’t specifically state that”. That is an argument from silence. There is no other evidence to prove that statement, thus, it rests totally on the lack of evidence, a logical fallacy. We, on the other hand, utilize the various writings of men to ascertain what the common beliefs of the time were. “How did Christians consider Mary during the first few centuries”? In the writings of the first Christians, we note that men are mulling more profoundly over that treasure called the Apostolic Teachings – both Scripture and Tradition – to mine the meanings of what God gave men. We see evidence that notes, from different sources, that Mary was considered special, not only in Scripture, but in the Apostolic Tradition and writings that followed. Thus, we use inferential evidence to determine that Mary is sinless, rather than empirical.

I wrote : “Paul does NOT say that Jesus is the only sinless person in Romans 3. Thus, Paul (and the Spirit) leave room for exceptions to the universal "all". “

You responded : An argument from silence is a lousy argument. ... :)

LOL! That’s not an argument from silence – as elsewhere in Scripture, we KNOW that Paul doesn’t mean that Jesus has sinned:

For we [do] not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted like as [we are], yet without sin.” Hebrews 4:15

Thus, we infer that Paul cannot mean that “All” is universal, because elsewhere, Jesus is mentioned as being sinless. Since Scripture cannot contradict, we infer that Paul has exceptions in mind.

Brother in Christ

2,688 posted on 02/15/2006 4:08:29 PM PST by jo kus
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To: Kolokotronis; Forest Keeper
+John Chrysostomos agreed with you and believed she did sin at least once, at the Wedding Feast at Cana. The Church and the other Fathers reject that

Re: my post #2,555 "Some Orthodox even point to the fact that she may have sinned (the incident at the wedding party when Christ turned water into wine), but these are private opinions and not doctrinal statements." (Kolo you were not pinged on that one, but I am glad you brought this up independently).

2,689 posted on 02/15/2006 4:55:09 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: HarleyD; kosta50
HarleyD-" everyone will be exactly where they want to be."

kosta-"That's odd, coming from a Calvinist..."

HarleyD - "Not really. God made all of us exactly as we are. There is not one thing that you have that has not been given you by God including your hopes, desires, faith, etc. God fashioned each of us according to His purpose."

Right. Harley, I take your statements to mean that only the elect will ever WANT to know God. God gives this grace only to His elect. All others will never have the desire to know God, because it is not in man's sinful nature to seek God. Therefore, all get what they want.

2,690 posted on 02/15/2006 5:23:00 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; kosta50

Yes. Amazingly there are some who witnessed God before them such as the Jews before Mount Sinai, Balaam or Belshazzar yet they never came to a saving knowledge. It is also interesting that the rich man in the flames of torment never asked Abraham to intercede before God for him. As strange as this may sound I believe he was right where he wanted to be.


2,691 posted on 02/15/2006 6:19:39 PM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: HarleyD; Forest Keeper
As strange as this may sound I believe he was right where he wanted to be

Except that what you are saying is an oxymoron -- based on what you tell me about your theology: that man could not have wanted to be anywhere, for that would imply that he had decided his fate by his own choice. I think you need to rephrase your statement to read "he was right where God wanted him to be."

Whether a slave to righteousness or to sin, yout theoogy says it's all God's doing. In either case our minds are captive to God's will -- and therefore whether evil or good, it must all be "good". Such is the nonsense you convey.

2,692 posted on 02/15/2006 6:59:05 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; Kolokotronis; annalex; jo kus
I still don't see anything in the Bible that actively says or suggests that Mary was sinless

This is what Thomas Merton, a late Catholic monk, in his book New Seeds of Contemplation (1961], says about this:

In our understanding, someone "full of grace" is someone without sin, as much as humanly possible, and fitting to be the vessel pure enough for God to use for His own Son. So, while the Scripture does not directly mention her sinless life, the only reasonable understanding of being "full of grace" is that she was without sin.

2,693 posted on 02/15/2006 7:15:17 PM PST by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Kolokotronis
Most Confirmations, what we call Chrismation, take place in infancy at baptism so clearly a child is not expected to be able to vebalize and defend The Faith. When an adult is chrismated, however, as at conversion, they are indeed expected to be able to verbalize and defend The Faith. Usually converts have gone through at least six months and usually a year or more of catechesis before receiving the sacrament.

Assuming that the vast majority of Orthodox go through Chrismation as infants, is there the presumption that they will receive the same training as the convert as they grow up? I ask because I know it's true that so many Protestants are baptized as infants and then never get much, if any, training in the faith. (That was my case.) The Southern Baptists were the first people I found that were really SERIOUS about Sunday school for both children and adults. Do you all have this or an equivalent?

FK, there isn't enough bandwidth on FR to even scratch the surface of Orthodox theology on prayer like what you call the "sinner's prayer". FK, theosis is all but impossible without a continual "sinner's prayer" on our parts!

That's great! I knew you wouldn't object to it, but it's great to hear how much you actively embrace its equivalent.

2,694 posted on 02/15/2006 8:59:55 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: kosta50
I think you are confusing respect as something one "earns" in human terms. In those terms, we are unworthy of God's love, as I am sure we all agree. But God doesn't follow our style or logic! Lucky for us!

I don't think I'm confusing anything, I just think we use the word differently. That's OK.

Although you said you didn't respect your children [as newborns], but loved them nonetheless, I say you are deceiving yourself because you did respect their humanity, their space, and their rights.

Same thing. Yes, I "respect" the FACT that they are humans, but that is using the word in a completely different sense. I thought you were saying that God has "respect" for us because of merit, but you're saying that is not the case. Why am I wrong to use "respect" in human terms? Is there Biblical support for God "respecting" us?

BTW, regarding my (now) teenagers, I actually have zero "respect" for their space or their rights! As a benevolent dictator, I will allow them to make certain mistakes, even if I know in advance and can prevent it. This is how they will learn some very valuable lessons. However, on any serious matter, or if any injury might be involved, then I will disrespect their spaces, rights, and anything else in order to save them from themselves. This has already happened with both of them. :)

2,695 posted on 02/15/2006 11:59:08 PM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg
Who said anything about changing anything with God. The problem is that you continue to ignore this one fact - YOU DON'T KNOW YOU ARE OF THE ELECT. Simple as that. God knows, you don't. You can wish all you want, but quite frankly, if you honor God's sovereignty, you must admit that we, even Paul, don't know this ultimate status between us and God until the day of our judgment.

How does it challenge God's sovereignty if we know we are of the elect? Our side would say that God wants us to know, and live in assurance. "If God is with us, then who can be against us?" (Rom. 8:31), and so forth. That strengthens our faith and helps empower us to obey (love) Him.

2,696 posted on 02/16/2006 12:25:14 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper; jo kus
"If God is with us, then who can be against us?" (Rom. 8:31), and so forth. That strengthens our faith and helps empower us to obey (love) Him.

Amen. Either Christ died for our sins, or He didn't.

If Christ died for our sins, we are saved already because He has paid the price for our redemption. We stand acquitted before God and blameless because He took on the burden of our guilt and absolved us of it when He died in our place.

These things happened. They are real. Christ rose from the dead. He accomplished what He came to earth to do -- He redeemed His sheep, past, present and future.

"When God calls a sinner, He does not repent of it. God does not, as many friends do, love one day and hate another; or as princes, who make their subjects favorites and afterwards throw them into prison. This is the blessedness of a saint; his condition admits of no altercation. God's call is founded upon His decree, and His decree is immutable. Acts of grace cannot be reversed. God blots out His people's sins, but not their names." -- THOMAS WATSON

2,697 posted on 02/16/2006 12:56:46 AM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: jo kus
You make God out to be a meglomaniac who can't stand it if someone is exalted (doesn't Scriptures say that the lowly will be exalted?).

A megalomaniac is one who is delusional with his self-perceived omnipotence. I assure you I do not accuse God of that! :) "Exalted" is a tricky word and can have different meanings in different contexts.

Clearly, Jesus does recognize and praise several demonstrations of faith in the Gospels. I know that. My only point is to remember that it is God who made it all happen.

Really, who takes away from the Creator by complementing the creation? When I build a chair, and someone says, "that's a nice chair", do I get upset, demanding that I get all of the credit, or is it understood that I am being praised THROUGH the chair? It is the same thing with humans.

NO! It is not the same thing at all with humans. :) For your analogy to carry, it would have to be another chair praising the first chair. This is because you are the creator of the chair, and the person praising it would be another human, an equal. God has no equal to praise His work.

There is nothing wrong with the second chair complimenting the creator (you) on your work, but it should appreciate that you also created it, and know that all the credit for both chairs goes to you. The second chair should know that the first chair did nothing toward its creation or its beauty.

Really, you have a misplaced idea of God's sovereignty. You seem to believe that because we PARTICIPATE, that means that God does 98% and we do 2% on our own! Hardly!

When you say "Hardly!", I couldn't agree more. You short-changed God by 2%. :)

I had thought that common sense - having thousands of different denominations that all equally claim to be led by the Spirit - would be enough for you to determine that the Spirit does not lead on the dogmatic front to individuals.

Oh, come on! Are you really one of those who says there are "thousands" of different Protestant denominations? That's bogus. The biased only count it that way because of our autonomy. So if my church performs the Lord's Supper once per month, and the next SB church down the street does it twice per month, then it's considered two totally different faiths. That's ridiculous. While I do admit there are sometimes important variations in theology, the basic core beliefs cannot possibly be split up as you suggest. I maintain that the Holy Spirit does lead individuals.

The oral teachings and practice of the communities determined HOW to read Scripture when Scripture was not so clear - or even when it seemed so to many people.

This is a main protest I have. You are stating openly what I have been gathering. Tradition trumps scripture! You cannot take scripture on its face. You must filter it through the Church's lens to arrive at an interpretation that matches tradition. It is the scriptural meaning that changes, not the tradition. That is the only way HOW to read scripture.

WHO wrote the Scriptures? You seem to have a problem remembering that the Apostles wrote it AFTER they had been teaching people for YEARS! Of course the Bible is to be read through these conditions.

No, I remember that, I just don't trust people playing the telephone game with doctrine that is not in the Bible. If you're right, then it goes back to my assertion that God was the most cryptic author in the history of literature. I don't know why He would speak in such riddles to His own beloved, except that a tiny few men might explain it to us. Again, by your arguments, the Bible wasn't written for us at all.

FK: "If you believe that "anyone" could come up with a book like the Bible, then I don't know what to say. I don't believe anyone could."

Really? A lot of people are absolutely convinced that the Koran is the Word of God. A lot of people believe that the Book of Mormons is from God. I could write a letter, sprinkle some "thus says the Lord" with some general prophesies (some of which are bound to come true), and I'd have a so-called inspired book from God!

But you evaded my question. Is the Koran or the LDS bible "like" the Holy Bible? We both know that billions have been fooled with false teaching. God told us it would be so. Honestly now, how many DEVOUT Muslims and Mormons do you expect to see in Heaven? Scripture tells you the answer plainly. My answer would be "extremely few".

I laugh when you repeat that you "could write a letter...". From my understanding, that is exactly what L. Ron Hubbard did! And today millions are fooled, and sadly, they are also lost. I believe that it is only God's grace that showed us both that all of these other teachings were false. Without it, one might seem as good as another. God gave us the grace to know.

Jesus didn't write the Bible! See what I mean? You are drilled so heavily on this stuff that you can't identify for yourself that the Bible takes outside verification to prove its claim! Anyone can write a book with "thus says the Lord". Only people on the ground can determine the truth of it or not.

The Word didn't author the word? That seems odd. The Bible does have plenty of outside verification to authenticate it, but none of it is needed. I don't agree that people need to determine the truth of the Bible. Truth is truth. People need to discover the truth that is already there. The difference is that with "determine" there is a human component. The truth of the Bible does not depend on man accepting it.

The reason why you know the Bible is from God is because the Catholic Church says it is and the Protestants unwittingly follow in step to that claim, not realizing the irony that they rely on the Church's determination of authority, while casting aside its authority to teach that very same book! Go figure.

That can't be right, because I still believe the Bible is self-authenticating. I don't begrudge that the Catholic Church said the Bible was God's word first, I'm glad she did! But, it really is true that when I accepted it, I didn't know anything about Church history or that Catholics put it together, or any of it. I was taught that the Bible was God's inerrant word, and I had read enough chapters, and seen the wisdom and internal consistency, and so I believed. We believe the Bible authenticates itself apart from the RCC, so there is no irony.

2,698 posted on 02/16/2006 3:39:14 AM PST by Forest Keeper
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To: Forest Keeper
How does it challenge God's sovereignty if we know we are of the elect?

Read the Gospels, brother. Notice how the Pharisees act, those who "knew" they were saved. Read the letters of Paul. Notice how he attacks the Judaizers, those who "knew" they were saved.

Regards

2,699 posted on 02/16/2006 4:06:12 AM PST by jo kus
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
If Christ died for our sins, we are saved already because He has paid the price for our redemption. We stand acquitted before God and blameless because He took on the burden of our guilt and absolved us of it when He died in our place.

Are you saying that all are saved, then? Since Christ died for the sin of the whole world, does this mean that everyone is saved?

"Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29

Regards

2,700 posted on 02/16/2006 4:19:43 AM PST by jo kus
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