Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will

Protestant Reformed Theological Journal ^ | April 1999 | Garrett J. Eriks

[stripes1776]

You've got that right. Some time ago, Schmemann was particularly favored by those Orthodox in the West, even a few hierarchs, who seemed compelled to "pass for white".

I'm not sure what you mean by "pass for white". You aren't going multiculturalist left on us are you?

[stripes1776]

"It's a constant example to us lest we become too comfortable in our own little sandboxes. I think God does not like us to be too comfortable in familiar ritual."

Sounds vaguely Episcopalian.

It is clear you didn't sit through a lot of boring Episcopal sermons in the 1970s in which God didn't want us to be comfortable in church at all, with or without ritual. I'm surprised they didn't take out the pews so our feet would be aching at the end of service.

[P-Marlowe]

I am not dead yet and when I pray for the souls in Purgatory, I do it privately every now and then when I say the Rosary.

Just out of curiosity, do the souls in purgatory pray each other out of purgatory?

Or do they just sit there and hope that someone else does pennance and prayer for them?

And if a priest binds that someone is to be released from Purgatory, is God bound by the priest's declaration?

If a priest declares that Hitler's sins are forgiven, is God bound by that one too?

[blue-duncan]

"It is a doctrinal development like any other my Church has been asked by Christ to do (Luke 22:31-32; John 21:15-17)."

Well it might interest you to know the Holy Spirit disclosed to our church, with proper scriptural citations and no need for doctrinal development, that when a believer dies he/she goes directly to be with the Lord and does not go to any intermediate state or rely on others to call to God's attention (in case He forgot) the good works of the deceased or any penance or prayers on the part of the living on the deceased's behalf.

Maybe your church's doctrinal development on this point has not matured yet. The old "milk and meat" analogy of Hebrews.

[Kolokotronis]

"Does this also extend to justification? IOW, do you believe that if someone is outside your church they won't be saved?"

Orthodoxy has no opinion on this. We just don't know as we don't know whither the Spirit will go. We can say that salvation is found within The Church. Its quite another thing to say, as I think the Latin Church does, or did, that it is not found outside The Church.

[alamo boy]

Calling the Protestant view a Memorial snack is a tacky response and an offense to me since I find remembering His death for me to be a profound experience that often brings me to tears. I have never had a tater tot and diet coke do that, thank you very much.

***"this is my body" in the same gospel. This defines real presence.***

This is My body is biblical language... "Real presence" is not. that is a fact. You believe the statement implies real presence, but that is an interpretative conclusion seen through traditional lenses.

Real presence is not biblical language.

"It is finished" is biblical language.

Maybe "words fail you" in fully describing the Real Presence because your view moves beyond logic, which was my initial comment.

=== Here's a deal... You do not refer to my view as a Memorial snack and I will not refer to yours as Gnawing Jesus' Flesh (and I can make a case for that language biblically).

Peace and Love

[Kolokotronis]

"I agree about how when we worship, we are assembling with the saints in heaven. My pastor did a sermon on that very topic once.

It is unfortunate very few Protestants understand this, however."

You know, unfortuate isn't the half of it. By conducting our faith lives "in the here and now", we can easily fall pray to a sort of theological relativism. In other words, The Truth once revealed becomes the pluriform truths of the Episcopalians or other so called mainline Protestant groups, or for that matter, the "relevant" liturgics of the Latin Church. It leads to a belief that The Faith must be made, or rather remade, relevant to today instead of Today being measured by that which is eternally and unchangingly true.

I am somewhat at a loss as to what it is, if anything, about Protestant theology which seems to make this all difficult to understand and accept.

[Kolokotronis]

"I'm surprised they didn't take out the pews so our feet would be aching at the end of service."

I'm sure Kosta would suggest that that might have been a good start! :)

[jo kus]

Just out of curiosity, do the souls in purgatory pray each other out of purgatory?

Yes, they could, although this is a commonly held teaching, and not dogmatic. As the poor souls are members of the Body of Christ, one must agree with St. Bellarmine and Suarez that it is possible and permissible to appeal to the poor souls for their intercessions.

And if a priest binds that someone is to be released from Purgatory, is God bound by the priest's declaration?

The priest does not bind anyone to Purgatory. The priest and any other soul remaining on earth can merely beg for the mercy of God for the release of these souls. The Church does not release anyone from Purgatory.

If a priest declares that Hitler's sins are forgiven, is God bound by that one too?

Jesus Christ, having all power and authority from the Father, gave the Apostles the power to forgive or bind sins. If a person makes a valid confession with contrition, that person's sins are forgiven in heaven. The priest serves as the visible means of identifying that one's sins are indeed forgiven. Thus, if Hitler came to a priest with true contrition, God would forgive that monster his sins - just as He promised He would. The ultimate sin is not murdering 6 million Jews, but in thinking that God WILL NOT or CAN NOT forgive a man's sins.

Regards

[Kolokotronis]

"I'm not sure what you mean by "pass for white". You aren't going multiculturalist left on us are you?"

LOL; no! The old immigrant generation of Orthodox were desperate to be accepted and make Orthodoxy accepted as fully American. The lengths they went to, for example adopting Western clerical dress and Episcopalian dog collars, are frankly quite sad. The fact of the matter is, however, that many Balkan and Middle Eastern Orthodox Christians were not considered white. My own grandfather was told that only "white boys" could shine shoes in front of a certain hotel and in 1909 a Greek orthodox fellow was lynched for dating a "white woman" (in Wisconsin of all places!). Anyway, even many of the hierarchs were ready to adopt Western religious practices and customs in the belief that they would thereby be accepted by the culture around them.

[jo kus]

Well it might interest you to know the Holy Spirit disclosed to our church...

SURE!!! Enough said. "The Spirit said so...!" You sure it was the HOLY SPIRIT??? Even Satan can appear as an angel of light.

The Holy Spirit told me you are wrong.

Anything that teaches against what the universal apostolic Church teaches is not inspired by the Holy Spirit, as the Spirit of Truth is only found within the Church established by Jesus Christ, not Martin Luther or Jean Calvin, or whoever else you might think of.

Regards

[jo kus]

Both Calvin and Luther readily acknowledged that they were reviving Augustine's exposition of the doctrine of sovereignty

St. Augustine's arguments were not accepted by the Church of his time, nor 1000 years later. That makes a few of his particular views suspect, such as mass damnatia.

Calvin's original work as a theologian is considered to be his seminal writings on the nature of the Holy Ghost, a matter that had been previously neglected.

Many have written on the Holy Spirit, including St. Augustine. But I wasn't aware that he had written a "seminal writing" on the Spirit. Unfortunately, I just don't have the time to read his works.

Calvin the founder of modern democratic republics like America.

I am not too sure about that claim. Geneva was far removed from being a "modern democratic republic", but more like a theocracy that had more rules than the Catholic Church that Luther rejected... It seems to me that Luther and Calvin were not upset with the Church's rules per sec, just that they were not in charge.

Regards

[stripes1776]

'm sure Kosta would suggest that that might have been a good start! :)

I am glad you saw my intended humor even though I didn't use a smiley. (Lack of icons is a sure sign of a Protestant.)

[stripes1776]

LOL; no! The old immigrant generation of Orthodox were desperate to be accepted and make Orthodoxy accepted as fully American.

This is an old story--i.e. repeated in many times and places. We could find any number of stories of persecution and murder by Orthodox Christians of people who didn't conform to their standards during the Byzantine Empire, and much worse than the stories you have to tell. Do those acts define Orthodox culture? I don't think so.

[redgolum]

. The fact of the matter is, however, that many Balkan and Middle Eastern Orthodox Christians were not considered white. My own grandfather was told that only "white boys" could shine shoes in front of a certain hotel and in 1909 a Greek orthodox fellow was lynched for dating a "white woman" (in Wisconsin of all places!). Anyway, even many of the hierarchs were ready to adopt Western religious practices and customs in the belief that they would thereby be accepted by the culture around them.

Funny, in that my grandfather remembered for a long time when during WWI, the local Lutheran churches were forced to put American flags in the sanctuary (big no no) and to stop having the services in German.

It sometimes is interesting to see what the "good old days" were really like.

[Kolokotronis]

"We could find any number of stories of persecution and murder by Orthodox Christians of people who didn't conform to their standards during the Byzantine Empire, and much worse than the stories you have to tell. Do those acts define Orthodox culture? I don't think so."

Boy, did you miss my point.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The interesting thing about the RCs' ridicule of the Lord's Supper is that they prove the assertion that they believe the priest performs a kind of hocus-pocus on the bread and wine.

It would make more sense to think the bread and wine in all Christian churches is the same element, regardless of what we each conceive that element to be.

But if the Protestants merely "snack" while the RCs literally chew and swallow Christ's actual body and blood, then the only difference is the incantations of a priest who believes the bread and wine are magically changed in atomic substance at a certain, specific point in their elevation and who alone can transmogrify them.

A full-meal alchemy not found in Protestant churches.

[Kolokotronis]

"Funny, in that my grandfather remembered for a long time when during WWI, the local Lutheran churches were forced to put American flags in the sanctuary (big no no) and to stop having the services in German.

It sometimes is interesting to see what the "good old days" were really like."

There was a small German Lutheran parish here when I was a kid. One of my best friends' family were members. The old priest was ancient by the time I came along, but I can remember him telling Allen and I exactly that same story. Times of course changed and by the time WWII came along, the local Lutheran families would travel up north to visit a POW camp with German POWs in it. Nobody apparently thought that was in the least odd or innappropriate. Allen's grandfather told me that had that happened during WWI, he'd have been lynched.

[annalex]

still great debate about whether Calvin believed in Limited Atonement

I don't particularly care if Calvin was Calvinist or not. My single point is, he is a second rate theologian. I would not be surprised if he, on occasion, was right on something. He did, after all, establish America, put the man on the moon and discover penicillin.

[1000 silverlings]

that they prove the assertion that they believe the priest performs a kind of hocus-pocus on the bread and wine.

It's true. A priest once told my pastor that the "only difference" between them was that "he had a magic finger"!