Posted on 01/01/2006 4:48:03 PM PST by HarleyD
Pinging you on this New Year Day.
There is nothing as more important as understanding God's sovereignty in our salvation as this article points out.
You mean that beats out repentance, faith, and charity?
I can't wait to see all of those people rewarded on the last day for their understanding of God's sovereignty in their salvation. I for my part plan to be beating my breast and saying, "Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me, a sinner."
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" -- Jeremiah 17:9 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." -- Isaiah 64:6 "As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." -- Romans 3:10-12.
"But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." -- Titus 3:4-7
You continue to claim for yourself the work of God within you, even though 2 Timothy 2 tells us repentance is something God gives to us -- "if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil..."
And Romans 2:4 says that the "goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance..."
Yet men prefer to see themselves as the final arbiters of their own salvation. But it is all of God, and none of man. Jesus Christ, "the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2).
You miss so much by not acknowledging that your faith, your repentance, your charity and your salvation are all gifts from God, not born out of our love for Him, but born out of His love for us.
Amen.
And thank you Harley for posting this.
Unless one understands the sovereignty of God it is impossible to fully understand repentance, faith and charity. It is though God that we are capable of repenting; that we even have faith; and that we do good works.
Did Martin Luther believe in double predestination?
Thank you HarleyD for posting such a wonderful article. I was blessed enough to have a mentor in my church who taught me many of the beliefs I have now, and which you correctly pointed out to me were reformed beliefs, even though I didn't know there was a name for it at the time. :)
However, he also taught that "God reveals himself to all men", and that in cases where earthly death occurs to a young child (or an abortion victim), or to one who has no capacity to "accept" Christ, that there is a "free pass" (my words) to salvation. These ideas seem to contradict the teaching of the article and I wanted to ask you both for your thoughts. As harsh at it might seem to us humans, I don't see how the teaching allows for any exceptions, even for those who have not yet sinned.
*He believed in double secret predestination
*As so many of the protestants posts begin, this one begins by atacking the Church Jesus establishd. The unacknowledged subtext is Jesus established a Church that teaches error.
That is a blasphemous absurdity.
We do not get saved for sinning boldly and believing, but by repentance -- metanoia, i.e. changing our mind -- through love and desire for God that transforms us, slowly as it may, into the likeness of Christ.
God only gives blessings. It's up to us to actively accept them, and it's our decision what to do with them. We are under no obligation to choose or reject God's blessings. That in itself does not make us gods. It is a gift that God gave us, so that we may -- not must -- love Him back.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you."(Mat 6:33)
To seek is to search willingly. Maybe one day all the Reformed Christians will come to that realization, but I doubt it.
Luther attacked the abuses of the church. You err by assuming that those abuses were created by Christ Himself.
The Church our Lord Jesus Christ established gives all credit to God for giving each and every one of us the opportunity to accept Him.
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." (Mat 5:16)
Not so! It started with the abuses of power and turned into reformation of theology as well. Luther claimed that what the Church teaches was in error and that he was the final arbitrer of what was right and wrong. Everyone else was in error according to him!
A sober post.
If that is so, then the Reformed theology must also teach that He is the author of good and evil, of repentance and sin, of faith and atheism, of charity and intolarance, of mercy and cruelty as well!
What can Love do but offer love? There is no evil in pure Love. But if your theology has merit, we must assume that Love somehow created evil as well. That is a twisted theology I must admit.
For, if you are right, our sinfulness is olso His doing, our slavery to sin is God's plan, giving Him "credit" for our Fall and holding Him accountable for it!
We "semi-Pelagians" blame man for the corruption of God's Creation. By giving us the freedom to accpet His gifts or to reject them, to do good with them or to do evil, He did create chaos as the OT says, but what's the alternative that you propose: God created some that He loves and saves and some that He loves and destroys? You must be joking.
I agree with this, but agreeing with it won't get me to heaven.
Unless one understands the sovereignty of God it is impossible to fully understand repentance, faith and charity.
You don't have to understand it. You only have to practice it.
And you continue to claim that salvation is achieved by intellectual effort and understanding.
(Don't like that response? It's as fair, and as charitable, and as accurate, as what you said to me ...)
God does reveal Himself to all but men's hearts are hardened. They cannot accept the truth until God changes the heart and instills the faith man needs to believe.
Many take comfort in believing a young child who dies is guarantee a spot in heaven. There is no biblical justification for this view. It leads to Arminianism and Erasmus' erroneous point of view. It also states that there are "other ways" to heaven besides the cross of Christ which is implied in the "free pass" idea.
That being said we can take comfort in knowing that our Lord is wise, merciful and gracious. He will make the perfect decision. Whatever that decision is God justifies everyone through the blood of His dear Son. God can instill a baby with His Holy Spirit (Jeremiah and John the Baptist are examples) just the same as He instills us.
Ping to self.
Both Luther and Erasmus wanted the practices of paid indulgences to stop. Luther was insistent. Erasmus more pragmatic. The practice of paid indulgences was admitted to be wrong by the Roman Catholics but far after the damaged was done. It should be noted that paid indulgences was a degree issued by the Pope himself from his chair. One has to wonder how an infallible Pope could issue a wrong degree from Ex Cathedra. I understand this applies to doctrine but I would content this was doctrine concerning matters of faith.
I would disagree that this is a blasphemous absurdity and from my Protestant perspective I would agree with the author.
I believe Luther would say that it is God who brings us to the point of repentance.
God works out His salvation in us. It's not done by ourselves. And before we hear the argument that we are allow to go on sinning...
I'll take schism over false doctrine any day of the week and twice on Sunday
And we do what? According to your teaching, then, God has not only brought us to the point of repentance, but into sin as well!
I have no doubt! Pride is one thing the Protestants never did surrender. Each and every one of you is the right interpreter of the faith. To you the only "false" doctrine is that which the Apostolic Church, which Christ gave us, taught from the beginning. Everyone else's "doctrine" is, of course, the "right" one.
That is interesting! Are you suggesting that paid indulgencs were treated as a dogma? That's the first time I read anything like this. Perhaps you could provide some links to sources of such a claim.
And rightfulyl so! However, that's hardly a justification to change not only the corrupt practices but the entire theology and praxis of the Church.
"All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned." - Martin Luther
Seems pretty clear where Luther stood on Predestination.
Amen. "Sweetness" is a perfect word for the gift of true awareness that every good thing comes from God to work for the benefit of those who love Him.
"Yet I will rejoice in the LORD, I will joy in the God of my salvation." -- Habakkuk 3:19
Thanks, and that solves the apparent problem concerning the seeming lack of God-enabled faith.
SO the EO church left Rome over which pride, I mean error?
But we are justified by the blood of Christ alone, according to God's will alone, ordained from before the foundation of the world for His glory alone. Rejoice, Kosta, that's the Good News which Christ came to proclaim.
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself" -- Ephesians 1:3-9"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
"To you the only "false" doctrine is that which the Apostolic Church, which Christ gave us, taught from the beginning."
I don't find anywhere in the scriptures where Christ gave us an institution called "the Apostolic Church". What I do find is He called people out of their sin to follow Him and when He left to intercede for those who follow Him, the Father and Christ sent the Holy Spirit to teach, guide and empower each of His followers to be conformed into His image and do whatever He commanded. He gifted certain people to equip the called out ones to fulfill His commandments and He gave the qualifications of those who He had gifted but ultimately He left it up to the individual followers to search the scriptures as illumined by the Holy Spirit to see if what was being taught conformed to the scriptures, not creeds, traditions or the authority of any man. That is what Luther was basing his stand on, the perspicuity of the scriptures and the witness of the divine teacher, the Holy Spirit.
Well, there's pride in men's cleverness to somehow find enough righteousness in themselves to choose to believe, and then there's pride in Jesus Christ who is the "author and finisher of our faith."
Reformed Protestants choose the latter, by the grace of God alone.
But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord." -- 1 Corinthians 1:29-31."That no flesh should glory in his presence.
The EO never left the Church. You have your history mixed-up. We haven't changed our theology.
Amen. If I've learned anything from these years on this forum, it's that the Holy Spirit gets the short end of the stick a lot of the time.
Which unfortunately makes Christianity out to be more of a duality, than a Trinity.
But it is the perfect, unknowable, all-encompassing Trinity which separates true Christianity from every other belief in existence.
No wonder Trinitarian doctrine is being assailed on all sides. If that goes, we're left with Plato, Hegel and Martians.
So you see Rome as the Home Office?
You must speak some other laguage dear friend, for to choose means to make a selection among choices, options. A gift cannot be a choice.
God gives His blessings to all
"...for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Mat 5:45)
He doesn't choose; Love only gives. We choose what He offers. Love loves everyone, even the sinner. That deosn't mean the unrepenetant sinner will see the light of God if he or she rejects Him and chooses to stay and die in the darkness.
I think what you are trying to say is that we are saved by the Grace of God even if we sometimes (all too often) make a wrong choice, and repent for our ingratitude to Him.
Romam Bishop is in schism with the rest of the Church over some theological issues. Rome remains a particular Church withing the Church whose authority stems from Apostolic succession.
But God hates sin. The act of hating is not a love act, it is a hate act. While God is certainly pure love, this means he must necessarily be more than that. For example, God is also pure justice, pure mercy, and even pure wrath.
Concerning love creating evil, God creates all of us and we are all born into sin. We are all born evil and God created us. How is this twisted theology?
They say you are in schism.
Seems like someone in the Orthodox church is having a "pride" issue
Why is it that you Protestants refuse to acknowledge that God did not give us Scripture in hand, nor did He command us to write the Scripture, nor is everything that He taught written? The Scripture was not something truly canonized or static, or set in stone...or complete for that matter.
The creeds were formulated to clarify the Faith our Lord established against those who were confused about His divinity and His humanity. The councils met to discuss heresies, deviations from what the Lord taught his Apostles, not what every Joe and Sarah believed He taught.
There was no Christian Bible to tote around for a long time and the Church Fathers could not agree which of the 200 or so texts in existence were truly inspired. It took learned theologians almost 400 years to agree on the New Testament canon that you treat as something that was always there! Of those 200 plus, 29 were picked by men, I repeat by men.
Whether it was done with the aid of, or by, the Holy Spirit is a different story -- everyone claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit but somehow the sheer diversity in our misunderstandings and our interpretations tells me that this is not so.
And who was Luther but a man to pick his own? And who are the countless Bible-based denominations lead by preachers who claim to have the right interpretation and understanding of the faith but ordinary men who read and interpret as they see fit? They are all men (and women too nowadays).
Goodness! May God help you!
Good try. It's simple: our theology hasn't changed. It's not a matter of pride. But, yes we are in mutual schism relative to each other.
If it walks like a duck.....
Thanks for posting this.
Mark for further study.
LOL! I assure you He does.
You are confusing anthropomorphism of the Scripture with God who cannot be defined, described, painted, measured, limited, etc. but Who, because of our limited senses and abilties, is described in human terms.
PS I am waiting for someone to say "aha, gotcha! You paint icons, and bow to idols." He, he.
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