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To: jo kus
That's the second part. But what about "work out your salvation with fear and trembling"?

We are to "work out our salvation". That doesn't imply our refusal but that we need to humble ourselves to God. How otherwise would you say that God is at work in you?

We can hop around the scriptures all day long but I believe I asked you to just consider for a moment what Augustine concluded; there is not anything that you have that hasn't been given you. Be it your intellect, your faith, your grace, or the knowledge that allowed you to make the correct choice. Anything that you state that allowed you to make some sort of decision even in the "cooperation" with God is the Pelagius heresy.

It doesn't say we are permanently so.

The scriptures state that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit as our pledge (2 Cor 1:22, Eph 1:13, Eph 4:30) in addition to God's promise in Ezekiel 36. It states it's permanent.

2,601 posted on 02/13/2006 12:58:46 PM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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To: HarleyD
We can hop around the scriptures all day long but I believe I asked you to just consider for a moment what Augustine concluded; there is not anything that you have that hasn't been given you. Be it your intellect, your faith, your grace, or the knowledge that allowed you to make the correct choice. Anything that you state that allowed you to make some sort of decision even in the "cooperation" with God is the Pelagius heresy.

I agree, and have before, on St. Augustine's conclusion above. However, St. Augustine ALSO understood that men cooperated in salvation, that men were secondary causes, and that men were expected to return God's good gift to Him. By the way, you should know by now that Pelagius heresy refers to doing things WITHOUT GRACE! Clearly, I or ANY Catholic on this very long thread have never even implied that we can do anything without God. So please drop the accusation of Pelagianism... It is tiring to be falsely accused of it. The Scripture states that men are expected to work with Christ within them to "achieve" salvation - to bring it to conclusion.

The scriptures state that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit as our pledge

A seal is permanent, but we can turn away from God, giving up our birth right. We can disinherit ourselves. God's PROMISE is permanent - but it doesn't follow that WE will continue in Christ. WE CAN grieve the Holy Spirit, as I shown in 1 Cor 3:17 and other places.

Regards

2,608 posted on 02/13/2006 3:58:04 PM PST by jo kus
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