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To: HarleyD
Free will when? As believers? We can make choices to follow God or grieve/quench the Holy Spirit but from our sin we learn lessons and grow stronger.

As believers, yes. We SHOULD learn lessons and grow stronger, but I know of people whom the opposite had happened. The point of "testing" us is pretty clear. Some will be found wanting.

In the end all that ANY of us can do is look to our own salvation. We can rest in our faith trusting that Christ will keep what we have entrusted to Him. We’re the only one who truly knows our hearts and attitude towards God, how we came to know the Lord and how God has kept us on the path through all these years.

We should help others, but we can't know their status with God. I think sometimes we don't even know our OWN status! Sin clouds our vision. I am not so sure that people fully know their own hearts and attitudes. It is much too easy to "sincerely" think you are on the right path. Consider all of the various cults, members who vividly believe they are heaven-bound and all else are going to hell. They sincerely believe this - and they fool themselves. Man can very easily do this. That is why we should approach Jesus more humbly - rather than as a person "already saved" for heaven.

Some believe simply throwing a few coins in the collection plate is enough while others flagellate themselves and literally hang themselves on crosses one a year to “share” in Christ’s suffering. How much is enough?

To the first, like I said before, people can convince themselves quite easily of their righteousness or status in God's eyes. Of the latter, the Church has always said that bodily mortification should be done under the supervision of a spiritual advisor. Too easy to become proud in those or get carried away. I have found that each culture views such things differently, so I don't look down too much on such. I find it strange, but if it brings them closer to God, then so be it.

I would say that we find Christ in our weaknesses. It is recognizing we are unable to keep God’s standards that make us fall to our knees and beg for mercy. Anything that we do is because of Christ-not ourselves.

That is true, but only the first step. We cannot hope to come to Christ unless we put aside the desires of the flesh, as Paul tells us. It is one thing to say abstractly "It's all God", and quite another to give until it hurts, or go out of your way to help someone else, or to serve another in humility, even when they treat you poorly. All of that is being Christ-like. It is much more than recognizing that God deserves all praise!

According to scripture these were all “unbelievers” that God saved from Pharaoh and never trusted God for His salvation

That is an "after-action" report! However, after all of the Jews came through the Red Sea, didn't they commit to the covenant when Moses brought them the Decalogue? Weren't they solemnly affirming the Lord God and to follow His Commandments? Didn't they build the Ark of the Covenant for Him? Didn't they SEE the power of God, not only in the Reed Sea crossing, but in the manna from heaven and water from the rock? Yet, they continued to grumble - they lost their faith. All of these "saved" people were punished by NOT seeing the promised Land (which Christians see as a typology of our journey to heaven).

No, Paul is pretty clear that those Jews who died were not unsaved heathen rabble going along for the show. They were "SAVED" Jews, saved from the sin of slavery of Egypt through the waters of "regeneration"... However, MANY fell away - they built a Golden Calf, they complained, they worshiped idols. And they died without finding "rest". Paul sets this up as an example to persevere. Look at 1 Cor 10:12 - this is not being said to unbelievers!


2,672 posted on 02/15/2006 7:33:42 AM PST by jo kus
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To: jo kus
That is an "after-action" report! ...No, Paul is pretty clear that those Jews who died were not unsaved heathen rabble going along for the show. They were "SAVED" Jews, saved from the sin of slavery of Egypt through the waters of "regeneration"

An “after-action” report??? That’s a new one. I didn’t realize God gave reports to us. :O)

You are adding your interpretation and assuming they “lost” their faith. God divided the sea, led them by a cloud, fed and water them, and still they wanted more from God. They questioned God’s sovereignty (“Can God do X???") and never believed that God was able to do the thing He had promise. There He was in full view on Mount Sinai surrounded by the cloud and still they made a golden calf and claimed THAT was the God who brought them out of Egypt. If there is any case of man’s uttered depravity it was at this moment. Even after God’s righteous wrath smote the “stoutest” ones they still rebelled. We are told in Psalms 78:22:

We are also told they worshipped other gods:

Paul is perfectly consistent with Psalms 78 in that the Jews lack of faith was evident in their grumbling. As you can see by Psalms 78 it plainly states that they “did not believe in God” and they “did not trust” Him.

What then is the meaning of 1 Corinthians 12? It is simply the outward call of Paul telling people they must believe and to examine themselves.

BTW-And less I get the "Ah-Ha. Gotcha nasty old Calvinist. Doesn’t Psalms 78 indicate the Jews could repent to God.” All of this is shown as a historical lesson for record. It is an “outward call”. As we see later, God tells these people that they will die in the wilderness and their children will come into the land. God raised up the next generation that, for a time, followed after Him fulfilling His promise. It wasn't based upon the choice of the children.

2,673 posted on 02/15/2006 10:36:11 AM PST by HarleyD ("Man's steps are ordained by the LORD, How then can man understand his way?" Prov 20:24)
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