Skip to comments.Vatican may have found late pope's 'miracle'
Posted on 01/30/2006 7:43:33 AM PST by NYer
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) -- The Vatican may have found the "miracle" they need to put the late Pope John Paul II one step closer to sainthood -- the medically inexplicable healing of a French nun with the same Parkinson's disease that afflicted him.
Monsignor Slawomir Oder, the Catholic Church official in charge of promoting the cause to declare the late pope a saint of the Church, told Reuters on Monday that an investigation into the healing had cleared an initial probe by doctors.
Oder said the "relatively young" nun, whom he said he could not identify for now, was inexplicably cured of Parkinson's after praying to John Paul after his death last April 2.
"I was moved," Oder said in a telephone interview. "To think that this was the same illness that destroyed the Holy Father and it also kept this poor nun from carrying out her work."
John Paul suffered from Parkinson's Disease during the last decade of his life. His body trembled violently and he could not pronounce his words or control his facial muscles.
"To me, this is another sign of God's creativity," he said, adding that the nun worked with children.
He said Church investigators would now start a more formal and detailed probe of the suspected miracle cure.
The process that could lead to sainthood for John Paul began in May when Rome archdiocese published an edict asking Catholics to come forward with evidence "in favor or against" John Paul's reputation of holiness.
One proven miracle is required after John Paul's death for the cause to lead to beatification.
It must be the result of prayers asking the dead pope to intercede with God. Miracles are usually a physical healing that doctors are at a loss to explain.
Another miracle would be necessary between beatification and eventual sainthood.
(Excerpt) Read more at edition.cnn.com ...
Why does it bother you so much what Catholic do?
I don't care a twit what other religions believe. For example, the Mormons can baptize as many of my ancestors as they want to. It means nothing to me because I do not believe what they are doing "works."
So, if a Cahtolic asks a saint to pray for them, why does it bother you?
I don't think it matters, prays to, intercedes, prays for, living or dead.... the fact is, we're all fallen, limited creatures. Meditating on the good lives of people like John Paul can't be a bad thing. Focusing our energy or prayers or thoughts on his life is a positive thing to do. The Rosary for example (since this thread isn't quite riled up enough yet. :-) ) But the Rosary, like Dante's Divine Comedy, is a mediation on scripture as well as on the life of our Lord's mother. In fact, the Luminous mysteries hardly touch on her life at all. Yet a lot of non-Catholics (and Catholics too sadly) think it's just a rote recitation. I was at a seminar this past week where there was role playing which involved a mother who had recovered from alcohol and become a Buddhist. The description said she meditated. The woman next to me said she meditated - mentioned some technique which I had never heard of - I gave her a positive response and she asked whether I meditated. I told her "yes" on the Bible and by saying the Rosary. She was a bit put off by that for some reason.
Just wondering, please don't interpret this post as being some kind of Catholic bash. Why don't ya just go ahead and make him a saint already? Seems as tho most Catholics on FR are for it. I've seen numberous posts to that end. Do you really need to try and justify doing it by whats described in this article?
I wonder this because you can strongly assume but in the end you really can't prove that this particular healing or any healing for that matter was the result of any one particular prayer. Thanx.
God, yes. A dead ex-pope. Not exactly. He couldn't do it while he was on earth, in spite of the truth that with God all things are possible. We have no reason to believe he can do it now.
Greetings, btw :-)
Great to see you!
To be quite honest with you II, I'm not a really huge fan of JPII. I think he will achieve sainthood just because so many Catholics think highly of him. I'm with you, get it done and overwith and lets stop trying to justify it. The Vatican, however, does have rules that it must follow.
However, I am a really huge fan of Christianity in general and the Catholic Church to be specific. I'm just here to note the crassness of those who just come here to slam doctrine.
I think yours is a very good question. I love it when people want to discuss, not just tell us that we are wrong.
Well, this is an irrational faith. I can imagine all sorts of things based on this "no limits" theory, like they are sitting around eating peanut butter sandwiches or off creating new worlds populated with Smurfs. But of course I have nothing to back that up except, perhaps, what I would like to believe is happening.
Well put. I love it how Protestants say we are going to hell for praying to someone "other than Christ," and then turn right around and say "Please pray for my mother, she's got cancer." We don't just ask those who are with us now, we ask those who obviously got it right - saints - in addition.
I guess I can re word it then. Why doesn't the Catholic Church officially recognize him as a saint already?
Could you also address my contention that its impossible to
credit the particular prayer in the article as being the one that resulted in the healing?
Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you, or a sick relative, or anything of that sort? Maybe your brother lost his job, so you asked people with whom you go to church to "pray for my brother"? That is what Catholics do when we "pray to saints." We recognize that NO ONE on this side of Heaven can do it alone, and so ask for all the help we can get--read the Creed:
And so I ask the Blessed Mary, ever virgin,
All the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me, to the Lord our God.
Doesn't get much simpler than that--we recite that every Sunday with the Confiteor.
From CNN...THERE'S a reliable source...
That's what a forum is for.. to say your opinion.
Perhaps you would be better suited at cnn or msn so that you don't have to worry about reading opinions.
What book? Do you know what your are talking about?
Perhaps.... but it's still pretty stupid to call someone a saint for what they supposedly do in the afterlife. And the proof is what? None. As usual it's the Catholics creating falsehoods.
But that's the difference.... Catholics do not understand God. In fact Catholics are about as far from God as mormons are. The fact is that the only person that move and change your life is God through the power of Jesus Christ. If it's God's will it will be done. The only person you should ever be speaking to his him.
We know that this was true in the case of Moses because we have God's infallible revelation on the subject. The irrational part comes about when folks attempt to extrapolate the extraordinary, very limited events in Scripture to some general rule. IOW, just because Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration specifically to testify to His messiahship does not mean that we can automatically transpose that special case to all the other saints that have gone before.
It's interesting that we do not find the apostles and early church praying to Moses or Elijah, even though they are known to be with Christ. In fact when was the last time you prayed to Moses or Elijah? Where did they pray to angels? Where did Jesus encourage His disciples to pray to angels or men? Your case would be air-tight if only you had infallible truth on your side.
There are many facts that point to the arbitrary nature of the Roman Catholic practice on praying to saints. At least be consistent and say these practices are purely based on the tradition and magisterium of your church, and don't try to twist the Scripture to make your case.
It doesn't bother me.. it doesn't matter to me either. But how can you have a forum and discussion without the discussion?
I pray for God's will to be done. I pray to think of others. I pray for my own spirit to realize there is more to life than myself. I do understand that God's will will be done regardless. It doesn't matter how much everyone prays about a particular thing.
Think about Schivao for instance.. many prayed for her to live... she did not. The purpose of prayer isn't to get what you want.. it's to put yourself at God's mercy.
That's okay, Almondjoy. You just keep on reading the menu and I'll eat the meal.
Almondjoy can declare you saved or condemned to hell, but the Church is not allowed to declare the holiness of its faithful. Brilliant example of the Pharisiacal folly.
Except for that wedding at Cana. And Moses over there on Sinai...
Do you know the definition of a Saint? A Saint in the Catholic concept discussed here is someone who is with Christ in Glory in Heaven. The Miracle brought about by that Saint's intercession provides some proof that that individual is indeed in Heaven with Christ praying for those on earth in adoration and worship of God.
So the opinion of the Catholic Church is put in such high regard that you place the church before God.
The family unit is obviously a support system for us earthlings.
Such lame attempts to discredit me with calling names just makes it all the more funny.
I base my relationship with Jesus Christ on my own personal relationship with him.
The bible be it as it may is a guide to help you lead a better and fuller life. Regardless if it is "infallible" or not.
Which is a joke.. as you can see it is the churches desperate attempt to paint a picture that doesn't exist.
Just because you want to believe something doesn't make it so.
The pope couldn't provide proof unless God let him.. and what would be the point of providing proof?
Just because some psychopath says he prayed with the pope to God to be healed.. and suddenly they are healed doesn't make them any less a psychopath.
The fact that the church buys into these people is what makes the church corrupt.
That's why I suggested just go ahead and do it.
You don't believe in the Catholic Church, that's your perogative. But don't even attempt to discuss something rationally and theologically than you know nothing about.
If this miracle is true, and I don't know if it is, but if true it merely shows that the late Pontiff, prayed to God asking for God's saving miracle and grace. The Saints point us toward God, toward the miracles and grace that He gives to mankind. The Patriarchs point the way to God. The Prophets point the way to God. The Apostles point the way to God. The Saints point the way to God.
Just because you have an incredible wrong-headed and misguided belief in what the Catholic Church is, does not make it so. Sound familiar, your logic redirected.
How do you know if someone is inspired? Seems to me, if they don't agree with what you want they are a psychopath. But if they do, they are inspired. Seems to me you have raised yourself up as the judge of all things holy. Not a good position to place oneself.
At one time, "popular acclaim" sufficed for sainthood. Now the process is more complex. Here's the updated version.
VATICAN CITY, SEP 12, 1997 (VIS) - Today the Holy See Press Office made public the following note on canonical procedure for causes of beatification and canonization:
"1. Canon norms regarding the procedure to be followed for causes of saints are contained in the Apostolic Constitution 'Divinus Perfectionis Magister,' promulgated by John Paul II on January 25, 1983.
"2. To begin a cause it is necessary for at least 5 years to have passed since the death of the candidate. This is to allow greater balance and objectivity in evaluating the case and to let the emotions of the moment dissipate.
"3. The bishop of the diocese in which the person whose beatification is being requested died is responsible for beginning the investigation. The promoter group ('Actor Causae'): diocese, parish, religious congregation, association, asks the bishop through the postulator for the opening of the investigation. The bishop, once the 'nulla osta' of the Holy See is obtained, forms a diocesan tribunal for this purpose. Witnesses are called before the tribunal to recount concrete facts on the exercise of Christian virtues considered heroic, that is, the theological virtues: faith, hope and charity, and the cardinal virtues: prudence, justice, temperance and fortitude, and others specific to his state in life. In addition, all documents regarding the candidate must be gathered. At this point he is entitled to the title of Servant of God.
"4. Once the diocesan investigation is finished, the acts and documentation are passed on to the Congregation for the Causes of Saints. The public copy used for further work is put together here. The postulator, resident in Rome, follows the preparation of the 'Positio', or summary of the documentation that proves the heroic exercise of virtue, under the direction of a relator of the Congregation. The 'Positio' undergoes an examination (theological) by nine theologians who give their vote. If the majority of the theologians are in favour, the cause is passed on for examination by cardinals and bishops who are members of the congregation. They hold meetings twice a month. If their judgment is favourable, the prefect of the congregation presents the results of the entire course of the cause to the Holy Father, who gives his approval and authorizes the congregation to draft the relative decree. The public reading and promulgation of the decree follows.
"5. For the beatification of a confessor a miracle attributed to the Servant of God, verified after his death, is necessary. The required miracle must be proven through the appropriate canonical investigation, following a procedure analogous to that for heroic virtues. This one too is concluded with the relative decree. Once the two decrees are promulgated (regarding the heroic virtues and the miracle) the Holy Father decides on beatification, which is the concession of public worship, limited to a particular sphere. With beatification the candidate receives the title of Blessed.
"6. For canonization another miracle is needed, attributed to the intercession of the Blessed and having occurred after his beatification. The methods for ascertainment of the affirmed miracle are the same as those followed for beatification. Canonization is understood as the concession of public worship in the Universal Church. Pontifical infallibility is involved. With canonization, the Blessed acquires the title of Saint."
Lame? I thought it was fairly brilliant... and deadly accurate.
Perhaps someone should instruct this fellow that he isn't supposed to be talking to a dead guy:
And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light.
And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him.