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Vatican may have found late pope's 'miracle'
CNN ^ | January 30, 2006 | Philip Pullella

Posted on 01/30/2006 7:43:33 AM PST by NYer

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) -- The Vatican may have found the "miracle" they need to put the late Pope John Paul II one step closer to sainthood -- the medically inexplicable healing of a French nun with the same Parkinson's disease that afflicted him.

Monsignor Slawomir Oder, the Catholic Church official in charge of promoting the cause to declare the late pope a saint of the Church, told Reuters on Monday that an investigation into the healing had cleared an initial probe by doctors.

Oder said the "relatively young" nun, whom he said he could not identify for now, was inexplicably cured of Parkinson's after praying to John Paul after his death last April 2.

"I was moved," Oder said in a telephone interview. "To think that this was the same illness that destroyed the Holy Father and it also kept this poor nun from carrying out her work."

John Paul suffered from Parkinson's Disease during the last decade of his life. His body trembled violently and he could not pronounce his words or control his facial muscles.

"To me, this is another sign of God's creativity," he said, adding that the nun worked with children.

He said Church investigators would now start a more formal and detailed probe of the suspected miracle cure.

The process that could lead to sainthood for John Paul began in May when Rome archdiocese published an edict asking Catholics to come forward with evidence "in favor or against" John Paul's reputation of holiness.

One proven miracle is required after John Paul's death for the cause to lead to beatification.

It must be the result of prayers asking the dead pope to intercede with God. Miracles are usually a physical healing that doctors are at a loss to explain.

Another miracle would be necessary between beatification and eventual sainthood.

(Excerpt) Read more at edition.cnn.com ...


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: jpii; miracle; pope; vatican
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To: topcat54
I'm sure the ex-pope is very busy these days hearing all those prayers being directed his way. I mean, does he have to take them one at a time? Does he put you on call waiting while he deals with the current crisis? Image if just 1% of all the world's Roman Catholics (not to mention some errant protestants or Orthodox) starting praying to the pope at the same time. And how do you know he's not handing the calls off to some long forgotten popes from, say, the 11th or 12th century with extra bandwidth?

Apparently the Scripture: "for God, all things are possible" escapes you.
51 posted on 01/30/2006 11:04:19 AM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: Almondjoy

Why does it bother you so much what Catholic do?

I don't care a twit what other religions believe. For example, the Mormons can baptize as many of my ancestors as they want to. It means nothing to me because I do not believe what they are doing "works."

So, if a Cahtolic asks a saint to pray for them, why does it bother you?


52 posted on 01/30/2006 11:04:22 AM PST by It's me
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To: ksen

I don't think it matters, prays to, intercedes, prays for, living or dead.... the fact is, we're all fallen, limited creatures. Meditating on the good lives of people like John Paul can't be a bad thing. Focusing our energy or prayers or thoughts on his life is a positive thing to do. The Rosary for example (since this thread isn't quite riled up enough yet. :-) ) But the Rosary, like Dante's Divine Comedy, is a mediation on scripture as well as on the life of our Lord's mother. In fact, the Luminous mysteries hardly touch on her life at all. Yet a lot of non-Catholics (and Catholics too sadly) think it's just a rote recitation. I was at a seminar this past week where there was role playing which involved a mother who had recovered from alcohol and become a Buddhist. The description said she meditated. The woman next to me said she meditated - mentioned some technique which I had never heard of - I gave her a positive response and she asked whether I meditated. I told her "yes" on the Bible and by saying the Rosary. She was a bit put off by that for some reason.


53 posted on 01/30/2006 11:06:16 AM PST by Mercat (sometimes God calms the storm, sometimes he lets the storm rage and calms the child)
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To: netmilsmom
Hi netmilsmom,

Just wondering, please don't interpret this post as being some kind of Catholic bash. Why don't ya just go ahead and make him a saint already? Seems as tho most Catholics on FR are for it. I've seen numberous posts to that end. Do you really need to try and justify doing it by whats described in this article?

I wonder this because you can strongly assume but in the end you really can't prove that this particular healing or any healing for that matter was the result of any one particular prayer. Thanx.

54 posted on 01/30/2006 11:19:59 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: mike182d
Apparently the Scripture: "for God, all things are possible" escapes you.?

God, yes. A dead ex-pope. Not exactly. He couldn't do it while he was on earth, in spite of the truth that with God all things are possible. We have no reason to believe he can do it now.

55 posted on 01/30/2006 11:29:15 AM PST by topcat54
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To: topcat54
We have no reason to believe he can do it now.

How about: "I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me"?

Are you in a position to put limitations on what a man, united with God the Father in heaven and Jesus Christ, can do by the power of Jesus Christ?
56 posted on 01/30/2006 11:31:55 AM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: netmilsmom

Greetings, btw :-)


57 posted on 01/30/2006 11:32:29 AM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: mike182d

Hey!
Great to see you!


58 posted on 01/30/2006 11:38:30 AM PST by netmilsmom (To attack one section of Christianity in this day and age, is to waste time.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

To be quite honest with you II, I'm not a really huge fan of JPII. I think he will achieve sainthood just because so many Catholics think highly of him. I'm with you, get it done and overwith and lets stop trying to justify it. The Vatican, however, does have rules that it must follow.

However, I am a really huge fan of Christianity in general and the Catholic Church to be specific. I'm just here to note the crassness of those who just come here to slam doctrine.

I think yours is a very good question. I love it when people want to discuss, not just tell us that we are wrong.


59 posted on 01/30/2006 11:43:30 AM PST by netmilsmom (To attack one section of Christianity in this day and age, is to waste time.)
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To: mike182d
Are you in a position to put limitations on what a man, united with God the Father in heaven and Jesus Christ, can do by the power of Jesus Christ?

Well, this is an irrational faith. I can imagine all sorts of things based on this "no limits" theory, like they are sitting around eating peanut butter sandwiches or off creating new worlds populated with Smurfs. But of course I have nothing to back that up except, perhaps, what I would like to believe is happening.

60 posted on 01/30/2006 11:50:35 AM PST by topcat54
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Why don't ya just go ahead and make him a saint already?

This is because the Church doesn't "make" Saints, it recognizes them. The definition of a "Saint" is a person in heaven and only God can bestow upon a person such a reward.

A great - or perhaps not so great - example is that of Thomas A. Kempis. He wrote one the most insightful and powerful theological works titled: "Imitation of Christ." After his "death," everyone thought he was worthy of sainthood for being able to produce such a magnificent work and so the Holy See (the Vatican) exhumed his body. Upon opening the casket they found claw marks tearing through the wood on the inside of the casket and the bones of his fingers widdled down to nubs; he had been buried alive. So, despite his entire life of holiness, given the new evidence, it was possible that in the last moments of his life he despaired and so the fate of Thomas A. Kempis' soul could not be determined by the Holy See with any degree of certainty. Sainthood isn't a title one normally throws around.
61 posted on 01/30/2006 11:55:39 AM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: marshmallow

Well put. I love it how Protestants say we are going to hell for praying to someone "other than Christ," and then turn right around and say "Please pray for my mother, she's got cancer." We don't just ask those who are with us now, we ask those who obviously got it right - saints - in addition.


62 posted on 01/30/2006 11:58:36 AM PST by jcb8199
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To: topcat54
But of course I have nothing to back that up except, perhaps, what I would like to believe is happening.

I fail to see how it is irrational. God exists outside of time and therefore heaven, a unity with the Holy Trinity, must also exist in this extemporal realm. This should be a given as it is the faith of all Christians that Jesus always existed, even prior to His conception. Take Moses, for example. Moses died and was buried prior to Christ's resurrection and so had not yet entered into heaven. And yet, during the transfiguration, Moses is able to present himself before Jesus in a physical form and talk with him. How can Moses do this if he is both a) dead and b) not resurrected yet?

God transcends time.

You can call such faith "irrational" all you want, but it is clearly evident in Scripture.
63 posted on 01/30/2006 11:59:43 AM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: mike182d
This is because the Church doesn't "make" Saints, it recognizes them. The definition of a "Saint" is a person in heaven and only God can bestow upon a person such a reward.

I guess I can re word it then. Why doesn't the Catholic Church officially recognize him as a saint already?

64 posted on 01/30/2006 11:59:48 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: mike182d

Could you also address my contention that its impossible to
credit the particular prayer in the article as being the one that resulted in the healing?


65 posted on 01/30/2006 12:01:31 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Almondjoy

Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you, or a sick relative, or anything of that sort? Maybe your brother lost his job, so you asked people with whom you go to church to "pray for my brother"? That is what Catholics do when we "pray to saints." We recognize that NO ONE on this side of Heaven can do it alone, and so ask for all the help we can get--read the Creed:

And so I ask the Blessed Mary, ever virgin,
All the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me, to the Lord our God.

Doesn't get much simpler than that--we recite that every Sunday with the Confiteor.


66 posted on 01/30/2006 12:11:09 PM PST by jcb8199
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To: ksen

From CNN...THERE'S a reliable source...


67 posted on 01/30/2006 12:12:11 PM PST by jcb8199
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
I guess I can re word it then. Why doesn't the Catholic Church officially recognize him as a saint already?

Because they don't know if he's a Saint already.
68 posted on 01/30/2006 12:17:00 PM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: Thorin

That's what a forum is for.. to say your opinion.

Perhaps you would be better suited at cnn or msn so that you don't have to worry about reading opinions.


69 posted on 01/30/2006 12:18:31 PM PST by Almondjoy
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To: Rutles4Ever

What book? Do you know what your are talking about?

Hardly.


70 posted on 01/30/2006 12:19:25 PM PST by Almondjoy
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To: StAthanasiustheGreat

Perhaps.... but it's still pretty stupid to call someone a saint for what they supposedly do in the afterlife. And the proof is what? None. As usual it's the Catholics creating falsehoods.


71 posted on 01/30/2006 12:20:58 PM PST by Almondjoy
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Could you also address my contention that its impossible to credit the particular prayer in the article as being the one that resulted in the healing?

Sure: You can't prove it.

"Evidence" is the true objective state of things while "proof" is mental assent of a subjective entity to the evidence in question. All the corrolations in the world could be presented before a person and it wouldn't "prove" anything. As this deals with an act of God through a person, both said to exist outside of our epistemological realm, it is an act of faith and cannot be anything but an act of faith.
72 posted on 01/30/2006 12:23:34 PM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: mike182d

But that's the difference.... Catholics do not understand God. In fact Catholics are about as far from God as mormons are. The fact is that the only person that move and change your life is God through the power of Jesus Christ. If it's God's will it will be done. The only person you should ever be speaking to his him.


73 posted on 01/30/2006 12:24:01 PM PST by Almondjoy
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To: mike182d
Take Moses, for example. Moses died and was buried prior to Christ's resurrection and so had not yet entered into heaven. And yet, during the transfiguration, Moses is able to present himself before Jesus in a physical form and talk with him. How can Moses do this if he is both a) dead and b) not resurrected yet?

We know that this was true in the case of Moses because we have God's infallible revelation on the subject. The irrational part comes about when folks attempt to extrapolate the extraordinary, very limited events in Scripture to some general rule. IOW, just because Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration specifically to testify to His messiahship does not mean that we can automatically transpose that special case to all the other saints that have gone before.

It's interesting that we do not find the apostles and early church praying to Moses or Elijah, even though they are known to be with Christ. In fact when was the last time you prayed to Moses or Elijah? Where did they pray to angels? Where did Jesus encourage His disciples to pray to angels or men? Your case would be air-tight if only you had infallible truth on your side.

There are many facts that point to the arbitrary nature of the Roman Catholic practice on praying to saints. At least be consistent and say these practices are purely based on the tradition and magisterium of your church, and don't try to twist the Scripture to make your case.

74 posted on 01/30/2006 12:25:01 PM PST by topcat54
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To: It's me

It doesn't bother me.. it doesn't matter to me either. But how can you have a forum and discussion without the discussion?


75 posted on 01/30/2006 12:25:24 PM PST by Almondjoy
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To: jcb8199

I pray for God's will to be done. I pray to think of others. I pray for my own spirit to realize there is more to life than myself. I do understand that God's will will be done regardless. It doesn't matter how much everyone prays about a particular thing.

Think about Schivao for instance.. many prayed for her to live... she did not. The purpose of prayer isn't to get what you want.. it's to put yourself at God's mercy.


76 posted on 01/30/2006 12:29:12 PM PST by Almondjoy
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To: Almondjoy

That's okay, Almondjoy. You just keep on reading the menu and I'll eat the meal.


77 posted on 01/30/2006 12:29:32 PM PST by Rutles4Ever ("Catholicism is the only thing which saves a man from the slavery of being a child of his age." -GKC)
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To: Almondjoy
Perhaps.... but it's still pretty stupid to call someone a saint for what they supposedly do in the afterlife. And the proof is what? As usual it's the Catholics creating falsehoods.

Apparently you are missing several points of Scripture in your attempt to insult Catholicism. As I mentioned in an earlier post, Moses died and was buried. Yet, at the transfiguration, Jesus is standing there talking with Moses in physical form. Our God is a God of the living, not the dead, and those that go before us, continue living in union with Christ.......maybe. That's the keyword: maybe. We are not the judge of human souls, God is, and so it is beyond the ability of any man to defintively claim that a person is in heaven, or hell for that matter, unless God chooses to reveal that unto men. These revelations are the "proof" used to establish sainthood. It is the Catholic Church recognizing that a person was able to make it to heaven by what they did in this life and that we know they are in heaven.

Contrast this to the cliche "well, they're in a better place now, I'm sure of it" heard at every single funeral by people with no particular devotion to Christ sometimes and you tell me which is a more sure method of determining who has made it to heaven.
78 posted on 01/30/2006 12:31:09 PM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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Comment #79 Removed by Moderator

To: mike182d; Almondjoy

Almondjoy can declare you saved or condemned to hell, but the Church is not allowed to declare the holiness of its faithful. Brilliant example of the Pharisiacal folly.


80 posted on 01/30/2006 12:41:22 PM PST by Rutles4Ever ("Catholicism is the only thing which saves a man from the slavery of being a child of his age." -GKC)
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To: topcat54
We know that this was true in the case of Moses because we have God's infallible revelation on the subject.

Where in the Bible does it claim that the Book of Matthew is the infallible revelation of God?

To claim that a book is infallible because it is infallible sounds awfully irrational to me, don't you think?

It's interesting that we do not find the apostles and early church praying to Moses or Elijah,

Perhaps, unless you find it equally interesting that none of the Apostles refer to the New Testament as being Scripture. Or maybe you find it interesting that none of the Apostles used the word "Trinity" or speak of God as "one in three persons." Or maybe you find it even more interesting that prayers of intercession to the Saints have been found in many manuscripts from the early Church in the 3rd century?

Such as...

Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Methodius
"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . .(Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

John Chrysostom
"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

Jerome
"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).

Augustine

"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

Fact of the matter is that the Church established by Christ has believed this for over two thousand years.

There are many facts that point to the arbitrary nature of the Roman Catholic practice on praying to saints.i>

Name them. Like I said, two thousand years of consistent belief from the time of Christ is present in only one Church on earth.

81 posted on 01/30/2006 12:45:59 PM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: Almondjoy
I do understand that God's will will be done regardless. It doesn't matter how much everyone prays about a particular thing.

Except for that wedding at Cana. And Moses over there on Sinai...

82 posted on 01/30/2006 12:47:47 PM PST by Rutles4Ever ("Catholicism is the only thing which saves a man from the slavery of being a child of his age." -GKC)
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Comment #83 Removed by Moderator

To: Rutles4Ever

touche :-)


84 posted on 01/30/2006 12:52:44 PM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: Almondjoy

ROTFLMAO.

Do you know the definition of a Saint? A Saint in the Catholic concept discussed here is someone who is with Christ in Glory in Heaven. The Miracle brought about by that Saint's intercession provides some proof that that individual is indeed in Heaven with Christ praying for those on earth in adoration and worship of God.


85 posted on 01/30/2006 12:57:21 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: mike182d

So the opinion of the Catholic Church is put in such high regard that you place the church before God.

Interesting.


86 posted on 01/30/2006 1:04:54 PM PST by Almondjoy
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To: Rutles4Ever

The family unit is obviously a support system for us earthlings.


87 posted on 01/30/2006 1:06:01 PM PST by Almondjoy
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To: Rutles4Ever

Such lame attempts to discredit me with calling names just makes it all the more funny.


88 posted on 01/30/2006 1:06:57 PM PST by Almondjoy
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To: mike182d

I base my relationship with Jesus Christ on my own personal relationship with him.

The bible be it as it may is a guide to help you lead a better and fuller life. Regardless if it is "infallible" or not.


89 posted on 01/30/2006 1:09:05 PM PST by Almondjoy
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To: StAthanasiustheGreat

Which is a joke.. as you can see it is the churches desperate attempt to paint a picture that doesn't exist.

Just because you want to believe something doesn't make it so.

The pope couldn't provide proof unless God let him.. and what would be the point of providing proof?

Just because some psychopath says he prayed with the pope to God to be healed.. and suddenly they are healed doesn't make them any less a psychopath.

The fact that the church buys into these people is what makes the church corrupt.


90 posted on 01/30/2006 1:11:27 PM PST by Almondjoy
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To: mike182d
it is an act of faith and cannot be anything but an act of faith.

That's why I suggested just go ahead and do it.

91 posted on 01/30/2006 1:12:58 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: DoctorMichael

Thanks, Doc!


92 posted on 01/30/2006 1:23:13 PM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: Almondjoy

Desperate Attempt?

You don't believe in the Catholic Church, that's your perogative. But don't even attempt to discuss something rationally and theologically than you know nothing about.

If this miracle is true, and I don't know if it is, but if true it merely shows that the late Pontiff, prayed to God asking for God's saving miracle and grace. The Saints point us toward God, toward the miracles and grace that He gives to mankind. The Patriarchs point the way to God. The Prophets point the way to God. The Apostles point the way to God. The Saints point the way to God.

Just because you have an incredible wrong-headed and misguided belief in what the Catholic Church is, does not make it so. Sound familiar, your logic redirected.

How do you know if someone is inspired? Seems to me, if they don't agree with what you want they are a psychopath. But if they do, they are inspired. Seems to me you have raised yourself up as the judge of all things holy. Not a good position to place oneself.


93 posted on 01/30/2006 1:34:37 PM PST by StAthanasiustheGreat (Vocatus Atque Non Vocatus Deus Aderit)
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To: Almondjoy
So the opinion of the Catholic Church is put in such high regard that you place the church before God.

No. As a fallible human being, I do not claim to know the fullness of God's revelation, nor was I a personal witness to the life and teachings of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. Thus, all knowledge of the life of Jesus Christ and His teachings come from the Catholic Church, which was founded and carried on by the Apostles themselves, as personal witnesses.

Do you possess an omniscience or an ability to travel back in time that I am not aware of?
94 posted on 01/30/2006 1:38:42 PM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Why don't ya just go ahead and make him a saint already?

At one time, "popular acclaim" sufficed for sainthood. Now the process is more complex. Here's the updated version.

VATICAN CITY, SEP 12, 1997 (VIS) - Today the Holy See Press Office made public the following note on canonical procedure for causes of beatification and canonization:

"1. Canon norms regarding the procedure to be followed for causes of saints are contained in the Apostolic Constitution 'Divinus Perfectionis Magister,' promulgated by John Paul II on January 25, 1983.

"2. To begin a cause it is necessary for at least 5 years to have passed since the death of the candidate. This is to allow greater balance and objectivity in evaluating the case and to let the emotions of the moment dissipate.

"3. The bishop of the diocese in which the person whose beatification is being requested died is responsible for beginning the investigation. The promoter group ('Actor Causae'): diocese, parish, religious congregation, association, asks the bishop through the postulator for the opening of the investigation. The bishop, once the 'nulla osta' of the Holy See is obtained, forms a diocesan tribunal for this purpose. Witnesses are called before the tribunal to recount concrete facts on the exercise of Christian virtues considered heroic, that is, the theological virtues: faith, hope and charity, and the cardinal virtues: prudence, justice, temperance and fortitude, and others specific to his state in life. In addition, all documents regarding the candidate must be gathered. At this point he is entitled to the title of Servant of God.

"4. Once the diocesan investigation is finished, the acts and documentation are passed on to the Congregation for the Causes of Saints. The public copy used for further work is put together here. The postulator, resident in Rome, follows the preparation of the 'Positio', or summary of the documentation that proves the heroic exercise of virtue, under the direction of a relator of the Congregation. The 'Positio' undergoes an examination (theological) by nine theologians who give their vote. If the majority of the theologians are in favour, the cause is passed on for examination by cardinals and bishops who are members of the congregation. They hold meetings twice a month. If their judgment is favourable, the prefect of the congregation presents the results of the entire course of the cause to the Holy Father, who gives his approval and authorizes the congregation to draft the relative decree. The public reading and promulgation of the decree follows.

"5. For the beatification of a confessor a miracle attributed to the Servant of God, verified after his death, is necessary. The required miracle must be proven through the appropriate canonical investigation, following a procedure analogous to that for heroic virtues. This one too is concluded with the relative decree. Once the two decrees are promulgated (regarding the heroic virtues and the miracle) the Holy Father decides on beatification, which is the concession of public worship, limited to a particular sphere. With beatification the candidate receives the title of Blessed.

"6. For canonization another miracle is needed, attributed to the intercession of the Blessed and having occurred after his beatification. The methods for ascertainment of the affirmed miracle are the same as those followed for beatification. Canonization is understood as the concession of public worship in the Universal Church. Pontifical infallibility is involved. With canonization, the Blessed acquires the title of Saint."

95 posted on 01/30/2006 1:38:43 PM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: Almondjoy

Lame? I thought it was fairly brilliant... and deadly accurate.


96 posted on 01/30/2006 1:40:29 PM PST by Rutles4Ever ("Catholicism is the only thing which saves a man from the slavery of being a child of his age." -GKC)
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To: Almondjoy
I base my relationship with Jesus Christ on my own personal relationship with him.

How do you know Jesus Christ even existed? Did you personally meet Him and shake His hand?

The bible be it as it may is a guide to help you lead a better and fuller life. Regardless if it is "infallible" or not.

Says who? By who's authority is one to assume the Bible is a guide by which a person is to live their life? By what authority do we know the writings to be true in any way, shape, or form?

Yours?

The Protestant dilemma is that there is always a Pope: the one in Rome or yourself.
97 posted on 01/30/2006 1:41:02 PM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: mike182d
The only person you should ever be speaking to is him.

Perhaps someone should instruct this fellow that he isn't supposed to be talking to a dead guy:

And he was transfigured before them; his face shone like the sun and his clothes became white as light.
And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, conversing with him.

98 posted on 01/30/2006 1:41:22 PM PST by siunevada (If we learn nothing from history, what's the point of having one? - Peggy Hill)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
That's why I suggested just go ahead and do it.

Understandable, but it is better to be safe than sorry. :-)
99 posted on 01/30/2006 1:42:36 PM PST by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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Comment #100 Removed by Moderator


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