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Baptist controversy has tongues tied(Don't ask\Don't tell?)
DFW.com ^ | 3-11-6 | Jim Jones

Posted on 03/11/2006 5:42:09 AM PST by WKB

Baptists are caught up in controversy again.

This time conservative Southern Baptists are in contention over a new rule approved by the International Mission Board that disqualifies future missionary candidates who admit to speaking in a charismatic "private prayer language."

Proponents say the new regulation is needed to emphasize Baptists' long-held position against charismatic practices such as praying and speaking in unknown tongues, or "glossalalia," a practice popular among Pentecostals and other groups.

The irony is that Jerry Rankin, the leader of the Richmond, Va.-based foreign mission board, has long used a charismatic prayer language in his private prayers. So, could the man who runs the worldwide organization of 5,000 missionaries be disqualified under the rule? Not at all. The new regulation is not retroactive.

The mission board already prohibits missionaries from publicly speaking in tongues, but in November added the regulation disqualifying new missionary candidates who, like Rankin, admit to having a private prayer language.

Future candidates who use a private prayer language also have a right to appeal to try to convince screening committees that their practice doesn't violate Baptist policy.

Rankin said in a press conference with Baptist editors that he's used a private prayer language for 30 years but doesn't encourage others to do it. Rankin strongly opposes publicly speaking in tongues.

One mission board trustee, the Rev. Wade Burleson, pastor of Emmanuel Baptist Church in Enid, Okla., has led the opposition to the new private prayer language rule and believes it may have been meant to discredit Rankin. Burleson criticized the new rule as narrow and restrictive.

"For the record, I do not have the gift of tongues," he said on his Web site. "I never have had it and I don't desire it, but I sure don't mind going to Africa and serving on a mission field with someone that prays in tongues in their prayer closet."

David Rogers, a Baptist missionary and son of the late Rev. Adrian Rogers, an icon among conservative Baptists, agreed. He said in a letter to Burleson that he doesn't use a private prayer language but works with many missionaries who do.

The Rev. Tom Hatley, chairman of the mission board, this week said trustees thought the rules were needed to address some problems with charismatic practices in Baptist missions in some parts of the world, particularly South America. He doesn't think the rules were meant to target Rankin.

"One of the reasons it hasn't come faster is that trustees knew Jerry Rankin had a private prayer language and the rule might be wrongfully perceived as trying to hurt him," said Hatley, pastor of Immanuel Baptist Church in Rogers, Ark.

Hatley, a native of Fort Worth who grew up in Glen Rose, sent out an open letter this week to pastors urging them to study the proposals and offer their views by e-mail. He included position papers quoting the late Rev. W.A. Criswell, longtime pastor of First Baptist Church of Dallas, and Paige Patterson, president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, as critics of charismatic practices.

"Most pastors and theologians among Southern Baptists of recent decades and of today regard the charismatic movement as divisive, encouraging spiritual pride, and stressing minor gifts out of proportion to biblical evidence," the paper states.

Burleson has said he opposes the new rule on his widely read Web site, www.wadeburleson.com. The trustees adopted, then rescinded at Hatley's request, a motion that the Southern Baptist Convention remove Burleson as a trustee.

Central to the controversy are different interpretations of the New Testament. The Book of Acts tells of the Holy Spirit coming down on the Day of Pentecost "like a rushing mighty wind." It says cloven tongues like fire appeared over Jesus' followers and they began to speak in other tongues. Non-Christians from many nations heard the story of Christ in their own language and scores were converted to the new faith.

Southern Baptists generally have taught that the event in Acts was a one-time miracle related to building up of the early church and that the tongues mentioned were then-known languages.

But Pentecostals and many charismatic Baptists, Catholics, Episcopalians and independent Christian groups say they experience their own New Testament-style Pentecost today. They believe the Holy Spirit comes over them, enabling them to speak a spiritual language and drawing them closer to God.


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: charismatics; jibberjabber; sbc; superstitions
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1 posted on 03/11/2006 5:42:12 AM PST by WKB
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To: tutstar; Miss Maam; wmfights; TFMcGuire; blue-duncan; caryatid; Nightshift; TexGuy; ...

Baptist ping


2 posted on 03/11/2006 5:43:01 AM PST by WKB
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To: WKB

All I have to say about this is "mglmptbyy wwaaatrayala noballalto ugaferamaeeta"


3 posted on 03/11/2006 5:47:06 AM PST by Paloma_55 (Which part of "Common Sense" do you not understand???)
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To: WKB

One of my best friends growing up was Pentecostal and I am Baptist. I used to ask him about the "speaking in tongues" thing. He seemed to think it baloney but wouldn't say as much. I still wonder.


4 posted on 03/11/2006 5:47:17 AM PST by L98Fiero (I'm worth a million in prizes.)
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To: Paloma_55

I thought the author's name made this article
a little suspect.


5 posted on 03/11/2006 5:53:08 AM PST by WKB
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To: WKB
"The irony is that Jerry Rankin, the leader of the Richmond, Va.-based foreign mission board, has long used a charismatic prayer language in his private prayers."


So who has been eavesdropping?
6 posted on 03/11/2006 5:55:16 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: L98Fiero

it's baloney.

There was a thread on this recently


7 posted on 03/11/2006 5:59:01 AM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: Just mythoughts
So who has been eavesdropping?


3/03/06
Rankin discusses private prayer language
http://www.baptiststandard.com/postnuke/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=4614
By Trennis Henderson

Kentucky Western Recorder

BANFF, Alberta (ABP)—Acknowledging he has practiced a private prayer language for more than 30 years, Jerry Rankin candidly shared his views about the Southern Baptist International Mission Board trustees’ recent action on the issue.
8 posted on 03/11/2006 6:01:01 AM PST by WKB
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To: WKB

That kinda takes the "private" out of it don't you think?


9 posted on 03/11/2006 6:02:07 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: L98Fiero

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1590011/posts


10 posted on 03/11/2006 6:04:26 AM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: WKB
We have only one church in town. Its baptist affiliated.

I used to go on Sundays, but they got a new pastor.

He is charismatic. He jumps around and hollers like a pentecostal preacher. He moves about the church like he studied preachers on TBN.

I don't go anymore.

11 posted on 03/11/2006 6:04:30 AM PST by Bear_Slayer (When liberty is outlawed only outlaws will have liberty)
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To: WKB

Can anyone help me find 'private prayer language' in my bible?


12 posted on 03/11/2006 6:05:02 AM PST by Bear_Slayer (When liberty is outlawed only outlaws will have liberty)
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To: Paloma_55

All I have to say about this is "mglmptbyy wwaaatrayala noballalto ugaferamaeeta"

Chuckle, chuckle... hee, hee

Okay, so if they have a private prayer language with God, why do we even have to know about it? Maybe, this is an effort to keep out the habit of publically speaking in tongues, which is popular in Africa. The Bible clearly states that speaking in tongues should not be allowed if there isn't an interpreter there. Who is stirring up this non-controversy? I'm assuming it's a pagan practice amongst some Africans and a few SB Missionaries have allowed them to do this during Christian worship services. If that's the case... then it shouldn't be allowed. This article lacks facts. It's just dropping big names and creating a rift. Southern Baptist missionaries need to comply with SB theology or join another church that does permit "speaking in tongues" during public worship servies!



13 posted on 03/11/2006 6:05:13 AM PST by Sweet Hour of Prayer
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To: Just mythoughts

That kinda takes the "private" out of it don't you think?



From a public stand point, yes!!


14 posted on 03/11/2006 6:06:35 AM PST by WKB
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To: Sweet Hour of Prayer

According to the bible, those who spoke in tongues were understood by all of these different people no matter what their language.

Therefore, one would think that *if* someone were truly speaking in tongues, rather than sounding like jibberish, EVERYONE would understand them.

Therefore, I say POPPYCOCK!

Anyone who claims to speak in tongues, and makes unintelligible sounds, is either faking it, or possessed by something other than the spirit of God.


15 posted on 03/11/2006 6:09:13 AM PST by Paloma_55 (Which part of "Common Sense" do you not understand???)
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To: WKB
It amazes me that so many doctrinal nincompoops are allowed to preach and minister in the church.

I Tim 1:6-7

Some have wandered away from [the commandment of love] and turned to meaningless talk. They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.

16 posted on 03/11/2006 6:09:25 AM PST by Bear_Slayer (When liberty is outlawed only outlaws will have liberty)
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To: Bear_Slayer
Can anyone help me find 'private prayer language' in my bible?



The only place that I know of that comes close.


1 Cor. 14:2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
17 posted on 03/11/2006 6:10:49 AM PST by WKB
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To: WKB

"From a public stand point, yes!!"


LOL, well the whole controversy is now public.


18 posted on 03/11/2006 6:11:14 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: WKB

Years ago the Holy Rollers in this part of the world weren't doing so well so they pulled down their Church signs and put up Babtist signs so as the area grew in the early 50 people moving into the Dallas area went to what they thought was a local Babtist church, people calling themselves Babtist have been confused ever sence.


19 posted on 03/11/2006 6:14:59 AM PST by zipp_city
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To: WKB

He's still dead, I think.


20 posted on 03/11/2006 6:15:34 AM PST by DaGman
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To: WKB
I firmly believe that Paul was being sarcastic.

It amazes me that so many can take Paul's letter, an essay on not speaking in tongues and twist it to speak in tongues.

21 posted on 03/11/2006 6:19:16 AM PST by Bear_Slayer (When liberty is outlawed only outlaws will have liberty)
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To: Religion Mod

I tried to add Religion to the topics and it
says "Religion" unknown. Is that anything like
and unknown tongue?


22 posted on 03/11/2006 6:21:15 AM PST by WKB
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To: Bear_Slayer

"Can anyone help me find 'private prayer language' in my bible?
"

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;" - Mark 16:17


23 posted on 03/11/2006 6:21:21 AM PST by RoadTest ("- - a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." - Richard Henry Lee, 1786)
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To: WKB

When I was a young girl I was taken to both Catholic and Protestant pentacostal meetings where people often spoke in tongues. Everyone else seemed terribly impressed but I could clearly hear that the speakers were saying "Abada babada beebada boobada," in a chant--it was not some unknown language, but gibberish.

On the other hand, we have no right to judge whether or not, during the speaking, there is some powerful interaction going on between the speaker and God. We don't know what is in the speaker's heart and mind; only God does.


24 posted on 03/11/2006 6:23:21 AM PST by Capriole (The Anti-Feminist)
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To: RoadTest; Bear_Slayer
I don't see where this falls in the private category
25 posted on 03/11/2006 6:25:36 AM PST by WKB
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To: Just mythoughts

I do not agout Dr. Rankin's prayer life, but I do know that he was and excellent pastor.


26 posted on 03/11/2006 6:27:08 AM PST by Coldwater Creek ("Over there, over there, We won't be back 'til it's over Over there.")
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To: WKB

Hey, we have a local gal that channels a 35,000 year old Atlantian warrior and charges $$ to watch her do it. About the same legitimacy, IMO.


27 posted on 03/11/2006 6:33:14 AM PST by pissant
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To: Bear_Slayer

"It amazes me that so many can take Paul's letter, an essay on not speaking in tongues and twist it to speak in tongues."

I Corinthians 14:39: "Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues."

And this is not just for private prayer but to be spoken out in a congregation where unbelievers might come in: "In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips
will I speak unto this people;
and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. (Is. 28.11, 12)
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not - - "


28 posted on 03/11/2006 6:34:13 AM PST by RoadTest ("- - a popular government cannot flourish without virtue in the people." - Richard Henry Lee, 1786)
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To: Capriole
My nephew and his wife who were raised SB were going to an Assembly of God Church because they like the worship service.
(Which I tend to agree with BTW:>) )
Some one there "spoke in tongues" and he understood what
was said. The preacher then said "OK lets have an interpretation" After several requests from the preacher
he spoke up.
How or why should I argue with that?
29 posted on 03/11/2006 6:34:34 AM PST by WKB
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To: WKB

HERESHECOMEONAHONDA, SEEMYBOWTIE TIEMYBOWTIE, OHMYSHIN OHMYKNEE!


30 posted on 03/11/2006 6:37:58 AM PST by razorbak
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To: mariabush
"I do not agout Dr. Rankin's prayer life, but I do know that he was and excellent pastor."


I think this controversy should have been resolved in PRIVATE, I do not know Dr. Rankin, and consider his private prayers just that.
31 posted on 03/11/2006 6:39:05 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Bear_Slayer
I recently went to a "First Baptist" in conservative Downey, California to visit. I entered when the morning "praise" service was underway.I nev er stayed around to hear the pastor. There was so much -- in your face--emotionalism, jazzed-up, posturing that I made an early exit. It was very offensive.How have these prima donnas, media wannabees pushed out ANY semblance of worship is beyond me.

Also, recently, I drove an hour to visit McGee's old Baptist-like, independent Church of the Open Door Amplified electric guitar music could be heard at least ta block and a half away.away. (Very neighborly)

The point iI'm trying to make is that this mainline Baptist church, typical of many, may not have believed in tongues, but it was jcertainly using charismatic churches set the pattern.

32 posted on 03/11/2006 6:42:48 AM PST by Zechariah11 (30 shekels -- a contemptible price for the Good Shepherd of Israel)
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To: Paloma_55
"Therefore, one would think that *if* someone were truly speaking in tongues, rather than sounding like jibberish, EVERYONE would understand them.

"Therefore, I say POPPYCOCK!

"Anyone who claims to speak in tongues, and makes unintelligible sounds, is either faking it, or possessed by something other than the spirit of God."

Does that line up with this passage?:

1 Corinthians 14:2

For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
33 posted on 03/11/2006 6:43:57 AM PST by AlGone2001 (He's not a baby anymore...)
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To: L98Fiero

I came out of a charismatic tradition and now worship at a church that is not charismatic. I will admit, it lacks a certain fire.

I studied this because I needed to make sense of it for my own Christian walk. I thought the closest author to the truth was Spiros Zodhiates, who is a greek scholar. He writes all kinds of translations and lexicons.

Basically he says the word "tongues" as used by Paul had different meanings based on whether the plural was used or not. The prayer language is not nonsense but he says it is it is self edifying and therefore not for public use. Also it holds up the church to ridicule.

I at times use a private prayer language but it is just that. It brings you into a private place with the Lord. Sort of like sweet icing on cake, it's nice but you can't live on it.


34 posted on 03/11/2006 6:48:53 AM PST by I still care ("For it is the doom of men that they forget" - Merlin, from Excalibur)
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To: WKB
I thought the author's name made this article a little suspect.

You have no idea how encouraged I am to find another baptist who hasn't lost his sense of humor!

FRegards,

H-T

35 posted on 03/11/2006 6:48:57 AM PST by Hat-Trick (Do you trust a government that cannot trust you with guns?)
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To: Paloma_55

LOL.


36 posted on 03/11/2006 6:52:39 AM PST by festus (The constitution may be flawed but its a whole lot better than what we have now.)
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To: DaGman

As a kid one of Mom's friends had a boyfriend named Jim Jones and we used to call him Uncle Jim. When the Jim Jones massacree hit I was a very confused boy for a while till I got it all sorted out and realized there was more than one Jim Jones..... ;-)


37 posted on 03/11/2006 6:54:31 AM PST by festus (The constitution may be flawed but its a whole lot better than what we have now.)
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To: Hat-Trick

You have no idea how encouraged I am to find another baptist who hasn't lost his sense of humor!



We are few and far between but it is one thing
that God has blessed me with.
I don't know if I could make it without it.:>)


38 posted on 03/11/2006 6:56:05 AM PST by WKB
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To: Bear_Slayer
"Can anyone help me find 'private prayer language' in my bible?"

You won't find the word "piano" either, but there's a whole lot of churches that have them.

The info is there if you really want to search it out and prayerfully consider it, but I would guess from the tone of your comment that you probably aren't really interested in it.

Maybe I'm wrong.

39 posted on 03/11/2006 7:02:43 AM PST by Pablo64 ("Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.")
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To: Zechariah11

My own church, a Southern Baptist church (I attend the church and am a member of the church and was baptized into that denomination, but I do not consider myself a Southern Baptist per se anymore; I don't have a lot of use for denominations, if I'm ever asked that I put "Christian"), is getting just like that, and I don't like it. IMHO, it's because that kind of stuff draws people in, and I think there is an exaggerated emphasis on church growth these days instead of what the actual mission of a church should be.


40 posted on 03/11/2006 7:11:09 AM PST by GB
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To: WKB

Regardless of the fun people like to have at the expense of Baptist, it is remarkable what the "Baptist Men's Association" has done for such as the Katrina victims - one example of their many good charitable and effective works.


41 posted on 03/11/2006 7:12:01 AM PST by RAY
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To: WKB
How or why should I argue with that?

You shouldn't. Hey, just because I haven't experienced something doesn't mean it's not true. Your nephew, the guy who spoke in tongues, and their whole church were no doubt having a real experience of God at that moment.

My point was that a lot of the people who appear to be praying in tongues may indeed be having a close connection with the Lord at that moment, but that doesn't necessarily mean everybody else who hears the babbling is being edified. Sometimes it really is just babbling to express religious joy, not a foreign language.

42 posted on 03/11/2006 7:13:24 AM PST by Capriole (The Anti-Feminist)
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To: Paloma_55
According to the bible, those who spoke in tongues were understood by all of these different people no matter what their language. Therefore, one would think that *if* someone were truly speaking in tongues, rather than sounding like jibberish, EVERYONE would understand them. Therefore, I say POPPYCOCK! Anyone who claims to speak in tongues, and makes unintelligible sounds, is either faking it, or possessed by something other than the spirit of God.

Amen.

Fact is tongues were a sign to the Jew (unbelievers) not believers (1Cor.14:21-22) before the Fall of Jerusalem (70AD).

43 posted on 03/11/2006 7:16:11 AM PST by fortheDeclaration (Gal. 4:16)
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To: Paloma_55

Here's my .02, following up on the concerns I expressed in another post in this thread. Does this stuff get to the point where getting caught up in emotionalism drowns out any legitimate worship experience?


44 posted on 03/11/2006 7:22:48 AM PST by GB
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To: GB
I think there is an exaggerated emphasis on church growth these days instead of what the actual mission of a church should be.

So true. Some time back I listened to a Baptist pastor from Houston called R.B. Thieme.< He got so fed up that he just got completely rid of the choir and the music director. That was that.

He said that the mission of the church was first, second, and third -- teach the Word. He was old school, kind of the Bobby Knight of pastor-teachers.

45 posted on 03/11/2006 7:23:52 AM PST by Zechariah11 (30 shekels -- a contemptible price for the Good Shepherd of Israel)
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To: Paloma_55

LOL! That is exactly what I have heard when present as a pastor supposedly veered into tongues during a otherwise rational and enlightening sermon. Needles to say that my esteem for said Pastor took a nose dive at that time.

The Bible says that God is not a God of confusion and such babble is confusing and disruptive. Therefore I reject all such babbling that I have heard so far as phony.


46 posted on 03/11/2006 7:24:08 AM PST by F.J. Mitchell (Liberal Democrats represent the main scheme.)
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To: Paloma_55
"mglmptbyy wwaaatrayala noballalto ugaferamaeeta"


You know, I might be wrong but I think you just told everyone to go choke on cheese-whiz.

(Then again, I haven't spoken mussabubbala in a long time.)
47 posted on 03/11/2006 7:33:33 AM PST by macamadamia
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To: Paloma_55

"Anyone who claims to speak in tongues, and makes unintelligible sounds, is either faking it, or possessed by something other than the spirit of God."

My thoughts exactly.


48 posted on 03/11/2006 8:36:04 AM PST by swmobuffalo (the only good terrorist is a dead one)
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To: fortheDeclaration
Fact is tongues were a sign to the Jew (unbelievers) not believers

Tongues have two uses, one as a sign and the other as a gift. Tongues are a sign to unbelievers, yet 1 Cor 14:26 tells us to bring tongues to a church service. 1 Cor 14:22 he says that prophecy is not for unbelievers but for believers. Yet in 1 Cor 14:23-25, the unbeliever is repulsed by tongues and converted by prophecy. Interesting twist.

49 posted on 03/11/2006 8:43:04 AM PST by aimhigh
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To: WKB
No more "tongues"???
What a shame. That takes all the fun out of the Baptists.

J/k.

50 posted on 03/11/2006 8:53:32 AM PST by starfish923 (Socrates: It's never right to do wrong.)
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