Posted on 03/11/2006 5:42:09 AM PST by WKB
Except he doesn't mention the canon of scripture in that passage. That's an interpretation with no support.
And the first thing he rebuked them for was their division resulting from having too many teachers, and exalting knowledge. In 1 Cor 4 he writes:
"I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers;"
Then he writes this warning:
"But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power. For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power."
Jews still exist today, so the sign gift to reach the Jews must still exist.
In 1 Cor 14:26, we are instructed to bring "psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation" to the church service. The passage concludes with this:
"If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord."
By trying to eliminate some of the gifts, you are nullifying the commandment of the Lord. That is dangerous territory. Jesus said many times, "If you love Me, keep my commandments."
...Acts 10:44-47 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. [46] For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, [47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
As you can see by the above scripture they Holy Ghost fell upon gentiles and they spoke in tongues. The gift of the Holy Ghost was not just for the Apostles but for anyone who seeks for the gift.
The gifts are not the sole issue for the Christian. Salvation and the harvesting of souls IS. However, in order for a Christian to effectively and boldly bring the gospel message to a lost and dying world we need the gift of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost.
...Mark 16:15-18 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. [16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. [17] And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; [18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
...Mark 16:19-20 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. [20] And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.
Did you see the part that says: "And these signs shall follow THEM THAT BELIEVE.." It doesn't say only the origional 12 apostles, it doesn't say only to the jew or only to this person, or only at all. It says them that believe. Then down in verse 20 is the reason WHY we have been given the gift of the Holy Ghost."Confirming the word with signs following."
by the way, God still heals today. I have been healed by God and I have seen many miracles performed. Terminal cancer healed. Eye sight restored, marriages put back together, a woman literally on her death bed dying of Hep. C and she was HEALED. Even her doctors said it had to be God because she was literally at deaths door and there was nothing they could do for her. And there have been many, many other miracles too.
Prophecy also still goes forth. God still speaks to His people. At least for those who are seeking Him with their whole heart and who are listening--not with mans wisdom or intellect but with their heart(or spirit).
It's not a question of if you want God, its how much of God do you want?
And stop the nonsense, no one is saying that God doesn't heal, what is gone is the gift of healing.
No man today can heal a spiritual gift from God.
And that gift, that Paul once had, was removed from him once it had established him as an Apostle.
Prophecy also still goes forth. God still speaks to His people. At least for those who are seeking Him with their whole heart and who are listening--not with mans wisdom or intellect but with their heart(or spirit).
Prophecy goes out as 'forthtelling' not 'foretelling'.
No one can accurately predict the future as Agabus did in Acts 21:10.
It's not a question of if you want God, its how much of God do you want?
No, it is what God says in His word, the Bible, not what you want.
Those 'signs' that followed them that believed were for the Apostles and the disciples of the Apostles.
None of those signs are valid today.
The reason the Apostles were given 'signs' were to prove that they were in fact Apostles (2Cor.12:12).
This was necessary until the completion of the New Testament Canon.
There are no more Apostles today, and those signs following those who believe at the end of Mark, do not occur in anyone who believes today.
What Paul does mention is the fact that the Christian ought to grow up and the issue is never tongues (even when the gift was legimate), but maturity.
That is why he said he put away 'childish' things such as tongues, prophecy and knowledge for the better way, Charity, which bears fruit.
Let all things be done unto edifying (1Cor.14:26)
He rebuked them not for having too many teachers, but for making an issue of the teachers. (1Cor.1:11-13)
Then he writes this warning: "But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power. For the kingdom of God is not in word but in power."
He writes concerning their divisions and their acceptance of sin in their midst (1Cor.5).
So even with the gifts still in operaton, the church at Cornith was a baby church (1Cor.3)
Paul says he would rather speak five words for edification then 10,000 words in an unknown tongue (1Cor.14:19)
Jews still exist today, so the sign gift to reach the Jews must still exist.
No, because the initial gospel message was first to the Jew and then to the Gentile. (Rom.1:16, Acts.13:26).
That order of giving out the Gospel does not exist today, the Gospel going out equally to both Jew and Gentile.
In 1 Cor 14:26, we are instructed to bring "psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation" to the church service. The passage concludes with this: "If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord."
When the gift was functioning, that was the order with which it was to function.
It also states that women are not to speak in tongues, (keep silent in church) that would knock about 70% of the tongues movement out right there.
By trying to eliminate some of the gifts, you are nullifying the commandment of the Lord. That is dangerous territory. Jesus said many times, "If you love Me, keep my commandments."
And the commandment was to keep His word (Jn.14:21-23)
This the modern tongues movement does not do.
fortheDeclaration, the word of God is very simple to understand. It is to be taken literally where ever possible which is 90% of the time.
...Acts 10:44-47 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. [46] For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, [47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
IF you actually read this scripture you will see that the Holy Spirit fell on ALL them that heard the word. NOT JUST THE APOSTLES. First it was given to the apostles on the day of Pentecost and here it is being given to the Gentiles. The gift is for believers and is a sign unto unbelievers.Are there still unbelievers in the world? Yes, so the gift is still necessary. Are you a believer? No? Then the gift is not for you. Yes? Then the gift is for you and:
...Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
...Acts 2:17-20 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: [18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: [19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: [20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
As you can see by the above scripture the gifts started in the apostles time and will not have an end until the second comming of our Lord when He comes to claim His bride. And it says that God will pour out His spirit upon ALL flesh. A.L.L. ALL.
The bible is very, very clear. You don't have to believe it. You don't have to seek after it yourself. But please stop trying to hinder those who hunger for more of God by spreading these lies.
The healings I spoke of took place with the laying on of hands by men and women of God filled with the Holy Ghost and with power.
I have experienced healings as a result of my personal prayers and from the laying on of hands. God still heals today. The gifts are still in operation today. Tongues are for ALL beleivers.
There is, however, no recorded case of a woman receiving the gift of tongues in scripture.
Now, since the passage is in the chapter teaching about tongues and it use and abuse, the general principle is that women ought not be making noise in church for any reason, including the use of tongues, which was one source of confusion.
No one heals today like the Apostles did.
God still heals with prayer (Ja.5) but no one can lay hands on someone like Peter and Paul and cure them of deformed ankles (Acts.3:7) or a bloody flux (Acts.27:8).
The one who is spreading lies are those stating that the gift of tongues is still in operation today.
It isn't.
The passage quoted in Joel has nothing to do with the Church.
It has to do with Israel, when all of Israel will be saved under the New Covenant (Jer.31:31, Heb.8:8).
Now since tongues is for an unbeliever, not a believer, why would anyone in Joel be speaking tongues, they will all be converted!
Also, since tongues is for evangelism, why are those who claim it speaking it in private prayer, which is what the article about.
What, did God remove the gift of interpretation but not the gift of tongues?
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with the gift of tongues, it is the bringing the individual into union with Christ (1Cor.12:12-13).
Even when the gift was in operation, not all saved people spake in it and Paul states that it is the least of all the gifts, and we are to covert the better gifts, the ones that edify, comfort and exhort.
The modern tongues movement is simply a Satanic counterfeit of something that was legitimate 2,000 years ago.
...Acts 1:13-15 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. [14] These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
[15] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
Look at the above scripture, what is that in the list of names of those present? Oh, my, those are WOMEN's names. and look a little further in this same passage:
...Acts 2:1-4 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. [2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. [3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. [4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Oh, what shock that women should be present on this day when God filled ALL those present. YES there is that word again A.L.L. "And they were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues."
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
And then there is that other little scripture I have already given to you:
...Acts 2:17-20 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh...
There is that pesky little word ALL again. I believer that God's word is true. All of it, from cover to cover. I choose to take it as it is and not add to it or take away from it. If God says He is going to pour out His spirit upon all flesh, that the gift is to ALL who are afar off, then I know that that gift is for me. I am a woman by the way. And I know many women who are filled with the Holy Ghost. They are mighty women of the Lord whose husbands are mighty men in the Lord.
But that is just it, There are people that ARE filled with the baptism of the Holy Ghost. You will never be able to explain that away.
The truth is right there in God's word. It is plain for all to see. People are healed by the prayer of faith AND the laying on of hands. I have seen it happen right in front of my eyes. I have experienced it myself. There is no where in the bible that says the gifts are no longer in use. There is only one verse that says that they "shall cease" which is future tense and will not cease until that which is perfect is come.
1 Cor. 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
Everyone always seems to stop right her and never bothers to look at the rest of the verse.
1 Cor. 13:9-13 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. [11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. [12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. [13] And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
You know, you have to consider all of the verses that pertain to any issue in the bible not just one or two.
"When that which is perfect is come..." What does that mean? Well, read on..."For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face..."
Face to face with whom? With God and with Jesus. When we are face to face with our Lord we will not have need of tongues or prophecy for we will be WITH the Lord. When? When God places the New Jerusalem upon the earth. Jesus has not come back yet and the New Jerusalem is not in place yet either.
There are millions of souls who need to be reached for our Lord and this is what the "signs following"; "power from on high" "tongues", "laying on of hands", "miracles" and "signs and wonders" are for, to equip all believers to go out unto the harvest and win souls for the kingdom and to confirm God's word.
the passages I quoted had everything to do with the church. Christ's teachings were first given to the apostles but what did they do with that information? They taught others what Christ taught them. What did the people they taught do with the information? They taught others, they started churches, and the people they taught were filled with the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues and prophesied and had signs following.
1 Cor. 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
oh, my,you mean that verse says IN THE CHURCH? Were not many of the letters written TO the churches? Why yes, I do believe that they were.
The gift of the Holy Ghost is for ALL. You seem to have a lot of trouble understanding the plain language of the bible. Either God's word is ALL true or it is not.
IF tongues were for the apostles only then why were gentiles also filled? Why does God say He will pour out His spirit upon ALL flesh? Why is the church instruced at all about the use of tongues in the church if it were not for the church? And the same for prophecy, healing by the laying on of hands. God makes His word very clear and easy to understand. If tongues were only for the apostles or for the apostolic era He would have clearly stated so in HIS word. If women were not to seek after the baptism of the Holy Ghost or speak in tongues God would have said that this gift is only for men. But He never says any of that.
The passage in Joel was not just for Isreal. Besides that, the passage I quoted was from the New testament. It said "in the last days..." The last days may have begun back in the time of the apostles but the last days have not yet come to a close either. Christ has not yet returned. Until then, those verses are still in effect.
As for tongues, healings, deliverances, miracles, signs and wonders being satanic...
That is just ludicrous. Ofcourse, they accused Christ of the very same thing, accused those speaking in tongues of being drunk, and then sought to kill Christ for His message.
It is no surprise that there are still "pharisees" in the world today.
Covet prophecy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. (1st Cor. 14:39)
Amen!
Did not say that tongues was only for the Apostles.
What gifts followed the Apostles were from that generation which had transitional gifts untilt the Canon of Scripture was completed.
Now, there are no Apostles today, no one is healing as they did, and there is no legimate reason for tongues to exist, since it was to evangalize the Jews before they were dispersed as a nation.
Today, we do not go the Jew first, as the Apostles did back then.
As for women seeking tongues, no one is suppose to seek tongues, it is the least of all the gifts.
Paul states that one ought to covert the greater gifts that edify, comfort and exhort, not tongues.
So the notion that tongues is proof of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is utter nonsense.
Finally, there were temporaly spiritual gifts that ended when God saw fit to end them, that is why Paul could not heal his own friend and had to leave him sick (2Tim.4)
The passage in Joel was not just for Isreal. Besides that, the passage I quoted was from the New testament. It said "in the last days..." The last days may have begun back in the time of the apostles but the last days have not yet come to a close either. Christ has not yet returned. Until then, those verses are still in effect.
The passage in Joel is only for Israel.
In Acts 2, Peter is describing what would happen in the Last Days, if the Jews repent and receive their Messiah, whom they killed.
The Jews, as a nation, did not repent, and so, the events in Joel never happened.
There is not a word in Joel about tongues.
Tongues is for evangalism, and in Joel all Israel will be saved.
Your theology is simply an electic mess of scriptures wrenched out of their context.
As for tongues, healings, deliverances, miracles, signs and wonders being satanic... That is just ludicrous. Ofcourse, they accused Christ of the very same thing, accused those speaking in tongues of being drunk, and then sought to kill Christ for His message.
And Paul said that Satan would appear with signs and wonders (2Thess.)
Paul states that Satan has another Jesus whom they did not preach, another spirit and another gospel, that he has false apostles, deceitful workers transforming themselves into the Apostles of Christ and false ministers. (2Cor.11)
That is what the modern tongues movement is composed of, a false jesus, false spirit and false gospel.
It is no surprise that there are still "pharisees" in the world today.
If you mean by pharisee, one who expects the tongues group to follow the rules laid down in scripture?
If tongues did exist, it would still the least of all the gifts (as Paul states) that should be done in order and only by men.
It would be done on a known language that could be interpreted.
The tongues spoken in Acts 2 were existant languages, not blabbering.
Now what modern tongues church follows those rules?
The church in Corinth which had the gift of tongues, was rebuked by Paul as being babes in Christ (1Cor.3) even allowing incest among its members,(1Cor.5).
That is exactly the description of the typical 'tongue' speaking church today.
You guys really do have a hard time reading scripture don't you!
Checkout vs 13 Others mocking said, these men are full of new wine..
Again in vs.37, when the Jews ask how to be saved, they said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do to be saved.
No women were speaking anything.
Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
And what has this to do with anything?
The Gentiles were to be saved like the Jew, that was amazing to the Jews!
It still does not negate the fact that the Jew was the special object of salvation (Gal.2), the original 12 apostles going to them.
Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.
And then there is that other little scripture I have already given to you: ...Acts 2:17-20 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh...
If the last days had occurred, but they didn't.
For that to have happened the Jews would have had to repent and converted and then the Lord would have returned (Acts.3).
See anything about the Sun being made dark?
How about the moon into blood?
The events prophesied in Joel could have happened had the Jews repented as a nation, but they didn't because the Jews didn't.
Moreover, note in Acts 2 that real languages are being spoken, not the satanic gibberish that the modern tongues crowd speak today.
I hear you guys actually practice speaking that gibberish.
Anywhere in scripture that justifies that?
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit occurs in each believer and places the believer in union with Christ, it does not result in speaking in tongues.
When Paul received it, he was made blind!
There is that pesky little word ALL again. I believer that God's word is true. All of it, from cover to cover. I choose to take it as it is and not add to it or take away from it. If God says He is going to pour out His spirit upon all flesh, that the gift is to ALL who are afar off, then I know that that gift is for me. I am a woman by the way. And I know many women who are filled with the Holy Ghost. They are mighty women of the Lord whose husbands are mighty men in the Lord.
Now, what you do to the word of God is pick and choose what you want to read without context, ignoring what God says when it is goes against what you want to believe.
But that is just it, There are people that ARE filled with the baptism of the Holy Ghost. You will never be able to explain that away.
Oh, I explain it very easily, they have a spirit, but not the Holy Spirit (2Cor.11).
The truth is right there in God's word. It is plain for all to see. People are healed by the prayer of faith AND the laying on of hands. I have seen it happen right in front of my eyes. I have experienced it myself. There is no where in the bible that says the gifts are no longer in use. There is only one verse that says that they "shall cease" which is future tense and will not cease until that which is perfect is come.
What is said is that Paul lost his gift of healing since it was no longer needed to establish him as an apostle.
What is said is that there were Apostles who had special gifts and their disciples who established churches before the completion of the New Testament.
Moreover, as it states very clearly in 1Cor. even when those gifts were in operation, they were the least of the gifts, not any proof of being filled with the Holy Spirit.
Paul states that the believer ought to covert the greater gifts that edify, comfort and exhort not tongues.
In fact, if no interpretor is present, then no tongues are even to be spoken.
And at the most only 3 are to be heard.
Paul places great emphasis on order in the church (must have been a Pharisee).
The modern tongues movement is anything but orderly,with anyone jumping up and uttering some unintelligible gibberish.
1 Cor. 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. Everyone always seems to stop right her and never bothers to look at the rest of the verse. 1 Cor. 13:9-13 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [10] But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. [11] When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. [12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. [13] And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. You know, you have to consider all of the verses that pertain to any issue in the bible not just one or two. "When that which is perfect is come..." What does that mean? Well, read on..."For now we see through a glass darkly; but then face to face..." Face to face with whom? With God and with Jesus. When we are face to face with our Lord we will not have need of tongues or prophecy for we will be WITH the Lord. When? When God places the New Jerusalem upon the earth. Jesus has not come back yet and the New Jerusalem is not in place yet either. There are millions of souls who need to be reached for our Lord and this is what the "signs following"; "power from on high" "tongues", "laying on of hands", "miracles" and "signs and wonders" are for, to equip all believers to go out unto the harvest and win souls for the kingdom and to confirm God's word.
No one is saving people with speaking gibberish.
Now, in that chapter, Paul states what will cease will be three transitional gifts, prophecies (foretelling) tongues, knowledge, all three gifts still in operation during the period of Corinthians.
Yet, as Paul states in vs.11, there is growth stage in the church, which begins with prophecies, tongues and knowledge, but is no longer needed since Paul thought as a man, not as a child (see chapter 3).
Now, since you are a woman I hope that you are being silent in church.
And I am sure that your tongue speaking church is following the rules laid down by Paul for good order!
Who are you trying to kid!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.