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The Doctrine of Purgatory
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/Eschatology/Eschatology_006.htm ^ | Unknown | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J

Posted on 01/29/2007 6:45:51 AM PST by stfassisi

The Doctrine of Purgatory by Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

God created man that he might possess his Creator forever in the beatific vision. Those who die in the state of enmity toward God are deprived of this happiness. Between these extremes are people who are neither estranged from God nor wholly dedicated to Him when they die. What will be their lot after death?

The response of faith is that nothing defiled can enter heaven (Rev 21:27), and therefore anyone less than perfect must first be cleansed before he can be admitted to the vision of God.

If this doctrine of Catholicism is less strenuously opposed than the one on hell, over the centuries it has nevertheless become something of a symbol of Rome. Historically, the Reformation was occasioned by a dispute over indulgences, with stress on indulgences for the souls in purgatory. Since that time, the existence of an intermediate state between earth and heaven has remained a stumbling block to reunion and its final acceptance by the Protestant churches would mean a reversal of four hundred years of divergence.

Too often the eschatology of the Catholic Church is considered her own private domain, when actually the whole of Eastern Orthodoxy subscribes (substantially) to Catholic teaching on the Last Things, including the doctrine on purgatory.

Those in Purgatory When we speak of the souls of the just in purgatory we are referring to those that leave the body in the state of sanctifying grace and are therefore destined by right to enter heaven. Their particular judgment was favorable, although conditional: provided they are first cleansed to appear before God. The condition is always fulfilled.

The poor souls in purgatory still have the stains of sin within them. This means two things. First, it means that the souls have not yet paid the temporal penalty due, either for venial sins, or for mortal sins whose guilt was forgiven before death. It may also mean the venial sins themselves, which were not forgiven either as to guilt or punishment before death. It is not certain whether the guilt of venial sins is strictly speaking remitted after death, and if so, how the remission takes place.

We should also distinguish between the expiatory punishments that the poor souls in purgatory pay and the penalties of satisfaction which souls in a state of grace pay before death. Whereas before death a soul can cleanse itself by freely choosing to suffer for its sins, and can gain merit for this suffering, a soul in purgatory can not so choose and gains no merit for the suffering and no increase in glory. Rather, it is cleansed according to the demands of Divine Justice.

We are not certain whether purgatory is a place or a space in which souls are cleansed. The Church has never given a definite answer to this question. The important thing to understand is that it is a state or condition in which souls undergo purification.

The Catholic practice of offering prayers and sacrifices for the dead is known as offering suffrages. These suffrages are offered both by the individuals and by the Church. They are intended to obtain for the poor soul, either partial or total remission of punishment still to be endured.

Who are the faithful that can pray effectively for the poor souls? They are primarily all baptized Christians but may be anyone in a state of grace. At least the state of grace is probably necessary to gain indulgences for the dead.

The angels and saints in heaven can also help these souls in purgatory and obtain a mitigation of their pains. When they do so, the process is not by way of merit or of satisfaction, but only through petition. A study of the Church’s official prayers reveals that saints and the angelic spirits are invoked for the Church Suffering (i.e., those in purgatory), but always to intercede and never otherwise.

Contrary Views Since patristic times there have been many who have denied the existence of purgatory and have claimed it is useless to pray for the dead. Arius, a fourth-century priest of Alexandria who claimed that Christ is not God, was a prime example. In the Middle Ages, the Albigenses, Waldenses, and Hussites all denied the existence of purgatory. Generally, the denial by these different groups of heretics was tied in with some theoretical position on grace, or merit, or the Church’s authority. But until the Reformation, there was no major reaction to Catholic doctrine on the existence of purgatory.

With the advent of the Reformers, every major Protestant tradition—the Reformed (Calvinist), Evangelical (Lutheran), Anglican (Episcopal), and Free Church (Congregational)—took issue with Roman Catholicism to disclaim a state of purification between death and celestial glory.

John Calvin set the theological groundwork for the disclaimer, which he correctly recognized to be a part of the Protestant idea that salvation comes from grace alone in such a way that it involves no human cooperation:

We should exclaim with all our might, that purgatory is a pernicious fiction of Satan, that it makes void the cross of Christ, that it intolerably insults the Divine Mercy, and weakens and overturns our faith. For what is their purgatory, but a satisfaction for sins paid after death by the souls of the deceased? Thus the notion of satisfaction being overthrown, purgatory itself is immediately subverted from its very foundation. It has been fully proved that the blood of Christ is the only satisfaction, expiation, and purgation for the sins of the faithful. What, then, is the necessary conclusion but that purgation is nothing but a horrible blasphemy against Christ? I pass by the sacrilegious pretences with which it is daily defended, the offences which it produces in religion, and the other innumerable evils which we see to have come from such a source of impiety. Institutes of the Christian Religion, III, 5. Calvin’s strictures have been crystallized in the numerous Reformed Confessions of Faith, like the Westminster Confession of the Presbyterian Church. “Prayer is to be made,” says the Confession, “for things lawful, and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter; but not for the dead, nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death” (Chapter XXI, Section 4).

In the Augsburg Confession of the Lutheran churches, it is stated that “the Mass is not a sacrifice to remove the sins of others, whether living or dead, but should be a Communion in which the priest and others receive the sacrament for themselves” (Chapter XXIV, The Mall).

The Thirty-nine Articles of the Anglican Communion, which in the United States is the Protestant Episcopal Church, are equally clear. They place the existence of purgatory in the same category with image worship and invocation of the saints:

The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well as images of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God. (Article XXII). Standard formularies of the Free Church tradition simply omit mention of purgatory from their Confessions of Faith, with a tendency in the United Church of Christ towards universalism. Thus life everlasting is univocally equated with blessedness, the “never-ending life of the soul with God,” which means “the triumph of righteousness (in) the final victory of good over evil, which must come because God wills it” (Christian Faith and Purpose: A Catechism, Boston, p. 21).

A fine testimony to the ancient faith in purgatory occurs in the authoritative Confession of Dositheus, previously referred to. This creed of the Orthodox Church was produced by a synod convened in Jerusalem in 1672 by Patriarch Dositheus. The occasion for the creed was Cyril Lucaris, who had been elected Patriarch of Alexandria in 1602 and of Constantinople in 1621, Lucaris was strongly influenced by Protestantism and especially by Reformed theology. His Protestant predilections aroused the opposition of his own people. He was finally strangled by the Turks, who thought he was guilty of treason.

The Confession of Dositheus defines Orthodoxy over against Protestantism. It is the most important Orthodox confession of modern times:

We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to each hath wrought. For when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment nor condemnation are complete. For, after the common resurrection, when the soul shall be united with the body, with which it had behaved itself well or ill, each shall receive the completion of either enjoyment or of condemnation. Such as though involved in mortal sins have not departed in despair but have, while still living in the body, repented, though without bringing any fruits of repentance---by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and in find by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church hath from the beginning rightly called satisfaction—of these and such like the souls depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to their sins which they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from thence, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness through the prayers of the priests and the good works which the relative of each perform for their departed—especially the unbloody Sacrifice availing the highest degree—which each offers particularly for his relatives that have fallen asleep, and which the Catholic and Apostolic Church offers daily for all alike. It is not known, of course, when they will be released. We know and believe that there is deliverance for them from their dire condition, before the common resurrection and judgment, but we do not know when. (Decree XVII). An unexpected development in contemporary Episcopalianism is the verbal admission of Article XXII of the Thirty-nine Articles alongside a belief in prayers for the dead sanctioned by the American Book of Common Prayer. Among others, one oration reads: “O God, whose mercies cannot be numbered, accept our prayers on behalf of the soul of thy servant, and grant him (her) an entrance into the land of light and joy, in the fellowship of thy saints” (p. 34). Masses for the faithful departed are also offered in the High Church Episcopalianism.

Biblical Elements of Purgatory The Definition of the Catholic Church on the existence of purgatory is derived from Sacred Scripture and the Sacred Tradition, which Christ promised would enable the Church to interpret Scripture without error. In particular, the Church relied on the writings of the early Fathers in defining this article of faith.

The classic text in the Old Testament bearing witness to the belief of the Jewish people in the existence of a state of purgation where souls are cleansed before entering heaven is found in the Book of Maccabees. Judas Maccabeus (died 161 BC) was a leader of the Jews in opposition to Syrian dominance, and Hellenizing tendencies among his people. He resisted a Syrian army and renewed religious life by rededicating the temple; the feast of Hanukkah celebrates this event.

In context, Judas had just completed a successful battle against the Edomites and was directing the work of gathering up the bodies of the Jews who had fallen in battle. As the bodies were picked up, it was found that every one of the deceased had, under his shirt, amulets of the idols of Jamnia, which the Law forbade the Jews to wear. Judas and his men concluded that this was a divine judgment against the fallen, who died because they had committed this sin of disobedience. The sacred writer describes what happened next:

So they all blessed the ways of the Lord, the righteous Judge, who reveals the things that are hidden and fell to supplication, begging that the sin that had been committed should be wholly blotted out. And the noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, after having seen with their own eyes what had happened because of the sin of those who had fallen. He also took a collection, amounting to two thousand silver drachmas, each man contributing, and sent it to Jerusalem, to provide a sin offering, acting very finely and properly in taking account of the resurrection. For if he had not expected that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead; or if it was through reward destined for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, so that they might be set free from their sin (2 Mac 12:42-46). The Maccabean text shows that Judas, and the Jewish priests and people believed that those who died in peace could be helped by prayers and sacrifices offered by the living. Luther denied the canonicity of seven books of the Old Testament (the Deuterocanonical books), including the two books of Maccabees. But even if the text were not inspired, as an authentic witness to Jewish history in pre-Christian times it testifies to the common belief in a state of purgation after death and in the ability to help the faithful departed by prayers of intercession on their behalf. Jewish tradition since the time of Christ supports this view.

There are also certain passages in the New Testament that the Church commonly cites as containing evidence of the existence of purgatory. In the Gospel of Matthew, Christ warns the Pharisees that anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this world or in the next (Mt. 12:32). Here Christ recognizes that there exists a state beyond this world in which the penalty due for sins, which were pardoned as to guilt in the world, is forgiven. St. Paul also affirms the reality of purgatory. In his first letter to the Corinthians, he says that “the fire will assay the quality of everyone’s work,” and “if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire” (1 Cor 3:13, 15). These words clearly imply some penal suffering. Since he connects it so closely with the divine judgment, it can hardly be limited to suffering in this world, but seems to include the idea of purification through suffering after death, namely in Purgatory.

The Fathers on Purgatory During the first four centuries of the Christian era, the existence of purgatory was commonly taught in the Church, as seen in its universal practice of offering prayers and sacrifices for the dead.

The most ancient liturgies illustrate the custom in such prayers as the following: “Let us pray for our brothers who have fallen asleep in Christ, that the God of the highest charity towards men, who has summoned the soul of the deceased, may forgive him all his sin and, rendered well-disposed and friendly towards him, may call him to the assembly of the living” (Apostolic Constitutions, 8:41).

Equally ancient are the inscriptions found in the catacombs, which provide numerous examples of how the faithful offered prayers for their departed relatives and friends. Thus we read from engravings going back to the second century such invocations as “Would that God might refresh your spirit….Ursula, may you be received by Christ….Victoria, may your spirit be at rest in good….Kalemir, may God grant peace to your spirit and that of your sister, Hildare…Timothy, may the eternal life be yours in Christ.”

Writers before Augustine explicitly teach that souls stained with temporal punishment due to sins are purified after death. St. Cyprian (died 258) taught that penitents who die before the Sacrament of Penance must perform the remainder of any atonement required in the other world, while martyrdom counts as full satisfaction (Epistola 55,20). St. Cyril of Jerusalem (315-386) described the sacred rites of the Liturgy with the comment, “Then we pray also for the dead, our holy fathers, believing that this will be a great help for the souls of those for whom the prayer is offered” (Catechesis, 32).

St. Augustine not only presumed the existence of purgatory as a matter of divine faith, but also testified to this belief from the Scriptures. Among other statements, he said, “Some believers will pass through a kind of purgatorial fire. In proportion as they loved the goods that perish with more or less devotion, they shall be more or less quickly delivered from the flames.” He further declared that the deceased are “benefited by the piety of their living friends, who offer the Sacrifice of the Mediator, or give alms to the Church on their behalf. But these services are of help only to those lives had earned such merit that suffrages of this could assist them. For there is a way of life that is neither so good as to dispense with these services after death, nor so bad that after death they are of not benefit” (Enchiridion 69, 110).

Augustine’s most beautiful tribute to purgatory occurs in the book of his Confessions, where he describes the death of his mother Monica and recalls her final request, “Lay this body anywhere at all. The care of it must not trouble you. This only I ask of you, that you remember me at the altar of the Lord wherever you are.” Augustine complied with his mother’s desire and admits that he did not weep “even in those prayers that were poured forth to Thee while the sacrifice of our redemption was offered for her” (Confessions, IX, 11).

After the Patristic period, the Church did not significantly develop the doctrine of purgatory for many centuries. Then in the twelfth century, Pope Innocent IV (1243-54), building upon the writings of the Fathers, expounded in detail upon the doctrine. In context, Innocent was concerned with reuniting the Greek Church which had been in schism since the Photian scandal in the ninth century. He appealed to the Greek’s belief in a state of purgation as a point of departure from which to bring them into communion with Rome. In a doctrinal letter to the apostolic delegate in Greece, he discussed the common belief:

It is said that the Greeks themselves unhesitatingly believe and maintain that the souls of those who do not perform a penance which they have received, or the souls of those who die free from mortal sins but with even the slightest venial sins, are purified after death and can be helped by the prayers of the Church. Since the Greeks say that their Doctors have not given them a definite and proper name for the place of such purification, We, following the tradition and authority of the holy Fathers, call that place purgatory; and it is our will that the Greeks use that name in the future. For sins are truly purified by that temporal fire---not grievous or capital sins which have not first been remitted by penance, but small and slight sins which remain a burden after death, if they have not been pardoned during life (DB, 456). The Second Council of Lyons, convened in 1274, used the teaching of Pope Innocent IV in its formal declaration on purgatory. This declaration stated:

If those who are truly repentant die in charity before they have done sufficient penance for their sins of omission and commission, their souls are cleansed after death in purgatorial or cleansing punishments…The suffrages of the faithful on earth can be of great help in relieving these punishments, as, for instance, the Sacrifice of the Mass, prayers, almsgiving, and other religious deeds which, in the manner of the Church, the faithful are accustomed to offer for others of the faithful. The next major pronouncement by the Catholic Church regarding purgatory came shortly before the Council of Trent, from Pope Leo X who condemned a series of propositions of Martin Luther, including the following:

Purgatory cannot be proved from the Sacred Scripture which is the Canon. The souls in purgatory are not sure about their salvation, at least not all of them. Moreover, it has not been proved from reason or from the Scriptures that they are beyond the state of merit or of growing in charity (DB 777-778). The Council of Trent went further, including in the Decree on Justification an anathema of those who deny the debt of temporal punishment, remissible either in this life or in the next:

If anyone says that, after receiving the grace of justification the guilt of any repentant sinner is remitted and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such a way that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be paid, either in this life or in purgatory, before the gate to the kingdom of heaven can be opened: let him be anathema (DB 840). Fifteen years after the Decree on Justification, and shortly before its closing sessions, the Council of Trent issued a special Decree on Purgatory, as well as corresponding decrees on sacred images, invocation of the saints and indulgences. It was a summary statement that referred to the previous definition and that cautioned against some of the abuses that gave rise to the Protestant opposition:

The Catholic Church, by the teaching of the Holy Spirit, in accordance with Sacred Scripture and the ancient tradition of the Fathers, has taught in the holy councils, and most recently in this ecumenical council, that there is a purgatory, and that the souls detained there are helped by the prayers of the faithful, and especially by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar. Therefore, this holy council commands the bishops to be diligently on guard that the true doctrine about purgatory, the doctrine handed down from the holy Fathers and the sacred councils, be preached everywhere, and that Christians be instructed in it, believe it, and adhere to it. But let the more difficult and subtle controversies, which neither edify nor generally cause any increase of piety, be omitted from the ordinary sermons to the poorly instructed. Likewise, they should not permit anything that is uncertain or anything that appears to be false to be treated in popular or learned publications. And should forbid as scandalous and injurious to the faithful whatever is characterized by a kind of curiosity and superstition, or is prompted by motives of dishonorable gain (DB 983). Most recently, the Second Vatican Council in its Constitution on the Church renewed the teaching of previous councils on eschatology, including the doctrine of purgatory. “This sacred Council,” it declared, “accepts with great devotion this venerable faith of our ancestors regarding this vital fellowship with our brethren who are in heavenly glory or who, having died, are still being purified….At the same time, in conformity with our own pastoral interests, we urge all concerned, if any abuses, excesses or defects have crept in here or there, to do what is in their power to remove or correct them, and to restore all things to a fuller praise of Christ and of God” (Chapter VII, No. 51).

Meaning of the Doctrine Although not defined doctrine, it is certain that the essential pain in purgatory is the pain of loss, because the souls are temporarily deprived of the beatific vision.

Their suffering is intense on two counts: (1) the more something is desired, the more painful its absence, and the faithful departed intensely desire to possess God now that they are freed from temporal cares and no longer held down by the spiritual inertia of the body; (2) they clearly see that their deprivation was personally blameworthy and might have been avoided if only they had prayed and done enough penance during life.

However, there is no comparison between this suffering and the pains of hell. The suffering of purgatory is temporary and therefore includes the hope of one day seeing the face of God; it is borne with patience since the souls realize that purification is necessary and they do not wish to have it otherwise; and it is accepted generously, out of love for God and with perfect submission to His will.

Moreover, purgatory includes the pain of sense. Some theologians say that not every soul is punished with this further pain, on the premise that it may be God’s will to chastise certain people only with the pain of loss.

Theologically, there is less clarity about the nature of this pain of sense. Writers in the Latin tradition are quite unanimous that the fire of purgatory is real and not metaphorical. They argue from the common teaching of the Latin Fathers, of some Greek Fathers, and of certain papal statements like that of Pope Innocent IV, who spoke of “a transitory fire” (DB 456). Nevertheless, at the union council of Florence, the Greeks were not required to abandon the opposite opinion, that the fire of purgatory is not a physical reality.

We do not know for certain how intense are the pains in purgatory. St. Thomas Aquinas held that the least pain in purgatory was greater than the worst in this life. St. Bonaventure said the worst suffering after death was greater than the worst on earth, but the same could not be said regarding the least purgatorial suffering.

Theologians commonly hold, with St. Robert Bellarmine, that in some way the pains of purgatory are greater than those on earth. At least objectively the loss of the beatific vision after death, is worse than its non-possession now. But on the subjective side, it is an open question. Probably the pains in purgatory are gradually diminished, so that in the latter stages we could not compare sufferings on earth with the state of a soul approaching the vision of God.

Parallel with their sufferings, the souls also experience intense spiritual joy. Among the mystics, St. Catherine of Genoa wrote, “It seems to me there is no joy comparable to that of the pure souls in purgatory, except the joy of heavenly beatitude.” There are many reasons for this happiness. They are absolutely sure of their salvation. They have faith, hope and great charity. They know themselves to be in divine friendship, confirmed in grace and no longer able to offend God.

Although the souls in purgation perform supernatural acts, they cannot merit because they are no longer in the state of wayfarers, nor can they increase in supernatural charity. By the same token, they cannot make satisfaction, which is the free acceptance of suffering as compensation for injury, accepted by God on account of the dignity of the one satisfying. The sufferings in purgatory are imposed on the departed, without leaving them the option of “free acceptance” such as they had in mortal life. They can only make “satis-passion” for their sins, by patiently suffering the demand of God’s justice.

The souls in purgatory can pray, and, since impetration is the fruit of prayer, they can also impetrate. The reason is that impetration does not depend on strict justice as in merit, but on divine mercy. Moreover, the impetratory power of their prayers depends on their sanctity.

It is therefore highly probable that the poor souls can impetrate a relaxation of their own (certainly of other souls’) sufferings. But they do not do this directly; only indirectly in obtaining from God the favor that the Church might pray for them and that prayers offered by the faithful might be applied to them.

However, it is not probable but certain that they can pray and impetrate on behalf of those living on earth. They are united with the Church Militant by charity in the Communion of Saints. At least two councils approved the custom of invoking the faithful departed. According to the Council of Vienne, they “assist us by their suffrages.” And in the words of the Council of Utrecht, “We believe that they pray for us to God.” St. Bellarmine wrote at length on the efficacy of invoking the souls in purgatory. The Church has formally approved the practice, as in the decree of Pope Leo XIII granting an indulgence for any prayer in which the intercession of the faithful departed is petitioned (Acta Sanctae Sedis, 1889-90, p. 743).

A Problem A major problem arises regarding the forgiveness of venial sins in a person who is dying in the state of grace. When and how are they remitted? Is the forgiveness before death? If so, by what right? What has the person done to deserve forgiveness, since it is not likely God would remove the guilt of sins that were not repented of. Or is it after death? But then how can this take place, since ex hypotesi the person can no longer merit or truly satisfy, but can only suffer to remove the reatus poenae.

According to one theory (Alexander of Hales), venial sins are always removed in this life through the grace of final perseverance, even without an act of contrition. Remission takes place “in the very dissolution of body and soul,” when concupiscence is also extinguished. Few theologians look on this opinion favorably, both because there is nothing in the sources to suggest that final perseverance remits guilt, and because everything indicates the need for some human counterpart in the remission of sin.

Others claim (e.g., St. Bonaventure) that forgiveness occurs in purgatory itself by a kind of “accidental merit” which allows for the removal of guilt and not only satispassion in virtue of Divine Justice. If anything, this theory is less probable than the foregoing because it presumes there is a possibility of merit after death.

Blessed Dun Scotus and the Franciscan school say the deletion takes place either in purgatory or at the time of death. If in purgatory, it is on the assumption that the expiating venial sins is nothing more than remitting the penalty they deserve; if at the time of death, it could be right at the moment the soul leaves the body or an instant after. In any case, Scotists postulate that remission occurs because of merits previously gained during life on earth. This position is not much favored because it seems to identify habitual sin with its penalty and claim that venial sins are remissible without subjective penance.

The most common explanation is that venial sins are remitted at the moment of death, through the fervor of a person’s love of God and sorrow for his sins. For although a soul on leaving the body can no longer merit or make real satisfaction, it can retract its sinful past. Thus, it leaves its affection for sin and, without increasing in sanctifying grace or removing any penalty (as happens in true merit), it can have deleted the reatus culpai. The latter is incompatible with the exalted love of God possessed by a spirit that leaves the body in divine friendship but stained with venial faults.


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To: GCC Catholic
please do not continue to misconstrue what Catholics believe concerning them.

Hope springs eternal.

51 posted on 01/29/2007 10:48:39 AM PST by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

No. Some indulgences tied to a particular location (a particular shrine or the like), and getting to them often requires some money, but the indulgence for almsgiving (the "bought" indulgence) was eliminated sometime either around the time of or at Trent.


52 posted on 01/29/2007 10:49:47 AM PST by GCC Catholic
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Can a person still buy an Indulgence?

No. Never could, either. Almsgiving was once considered an indulgenced act ... but misconstrual and abuse led to scandal, so that was revoked.

If one can't state one's "opponent's" position clearly, completely, and correctly, in terms with which he would agree, and which he would find inoffensive, one has absolutely no business commenting on the matter.

53 posted on 01/29/2007 10:52:18 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: GCC Catholic
It isn't a "world to come". Your definition of purgatory is a place that exists parallel in time to this world. The "world to come" has always been defined as the new heaven and new earth where Christ reigns as Lord. At the last judgment there will not be any chance for repentance or forgiveness.
54 posted on 01/29/2007 11:01:42 AM PST by blue-duncan
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To: GCC Catholic; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; P-Marlowe

Sorry, but this verse is talking about:

1. This world.

2. The world to come.

Anyone in either of those worlds who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven.

It is speaking either of the Old Covenant (this world) and the New Covenant (the world to come) or of the Present World (this world) and the Millennial Kingdom of God (world to come.)

Since the passage is already speaking of the Kingdom of God, this is the clear interpretation of scripture.

You better hope that the "world to come" is not DEATH.

Jesus promised ETERNAL LIFE.


55 posted on 01/29/2007 11:06:23 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: xzins; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; Pyro7480; DungeonMaster; kawaii; HarleyD; Gamecock; ...
Purgatory is a denial of the doctrine of atonment. If men must be punished for their own sins despite having faith in Christ, depite being covered by the blood of Christ, then Jesus did not atone for their sins on the cross. The idea of Purgatory renders the atonement of no effect. Purgatory is not merely an error, it is another gospel.!

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-8 KJV)

56 posted on 01/29/2007 11:25:13 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: blue-duncan; xzins
It isn't a "world to come". Your definition of purgatory is a place that exists parallel in time to this world. The "world to come" has always been defined as the new heaven and new earth where Christ reigns as Lord. At the last judgment there will not be any chance for repentance or forgiveness.

I believe at least part of this is correct: Purgatory will not outlast the last judgment, and certainly, after the judgment, there is no chance for repentance. We know this from the book of Revelation (20:11-15):

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

What is it that we see here? We see the dead, judged on their works. We see the death and 'hell' (this is KJV, but many modern translations translate the Greek "sheol" as "the grave" or "Hades" not the hell of the damned, which would be Gehenna) finally destroyed, because they have been emptied and thrown into the lake of fire, that is, Gehenna. Purgatory (a Latin word for the Greek "Sheol").

This is rather consistent with 1 Cor. 3:11-15, which is mentioned in the article:

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

As well as with Mt. 18:32-34:

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

I would love to chat further, but my homework doesn't do itself, so I won't be back on the thread until later today.

57 posted on 01/29/2007 11:29:17 AM PST by GCC Catholic
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To: P-Marlowe

While I agree that purgatory represents "The Gospel of the Inconsequential Atonement," I also think it's the result of really lousy scriptural knowledge and the subsequent misinterpretation.

Note the Matthew 12 comment above and the reliance on Maccabbees.

Despite weird teachings like Kolob and Purgatory, those who truly trust in the Jesus of scripture when they read the real Word, those folks are saved.


58 posted on 01/29/2007 11:32:13 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it! Supporting our troops means praying for them to WIN!)
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To: P-Marlowe
This only holds true if Imputed Righteousness is true.

The Catholic Church has always held that Righteousness is infused, that is, it makes the soul completely clean. The "snow-covered dunghill" analogy is a clever one, I'll admit, but concerning Heaven, "there shall not enter into it anything defiled..." (Rev 21:27). Being a covered dunghill is not good enough, one must rather be purified completely through the Grace of Christ.

NOW I'm leaving to go do my homework.

A good afternoon to all!

59 posted on 01/29/2007 11:36:29 AM PST by GCC Catholic
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To: P-Marlowe

Frankly the notion that we can every save up enough 'good deeds' to make up for sin 1:1 is insane.


60 posted on 01/29/2007 11:41:48 AM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii

We don't do the work in Purgatory. God does. He burns off the dross so nothing impure will enter heaven.


61 posted on 01/29/2007 11:44:16 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: bornacatholic

If we go that route then I'm even more suspect of the idea of a non-instantaneous purgatory...

heck the theif on Christ' right was with him that day in paradise...


62 posted on 01/29/2007 11:46:30 AM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii
Frankly the notion that we can every save up enough 'good deeds' to make up for sin 1:1 is insane.

Would you mind diagramming that sentence?

63 posted on 01/29/2007 11:50:08 AM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: kawaii
I'm even more suspect of the idea of a non-instantaneous purgatory...

Whether purgatory is instantaneous, or is experienced in time as we here on Earth understand time, or is experienced in a manner completely different from "time" is ... not a matter of doctrine. And the "number of days" indulgence, formerly used but now replaced, referenced a "number of days" of public, Earthly pennance. It did NOT reference "time" (again, it is not taught definitively whether souls in Purgatory experience "time" in a way we would understand it) in Purgatory, although many misunderstood it that way.

64 posted on 01/29/2007 11:50:23 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: GCC Catholic

"but concerning Heaven, "there shall not enter into it anything defiled..." (Rev 21:27)."

So, evidently Enoch was not defiled. Or Elijah.
Both were taken up bodily (according to the Bible).

Did they not sin?
Did they not even have the stain of original sin on them?
Or did they, and God took them up in spite of their defilement?
Or did they, and God cleansed them of their sin before taking them up (two examples of the wiping clean of human sins before the sacrifice of Jesus)?

I don't know the answers.
I suspect nobody does.
What I suspect, in fact, is that our excessive certitude about these things which are, in fact, something of a contradictory mess, is itself an error.

What did JESUS say?
He said that the two great commandments were the Shema, and to love your neighbor as yourself. He said a lot of things to DO, how TREAT each other, for instance. And he promised eternal life for that.

Trying to rectify all of the confusing parts of the Bible, which are in some cases quite contradictory, is in the end I think a fool's errand...especially given the lack of emphasis Jesus placed on the Bible. He reduced the Jewish Bible to two commandments, struck out all of the customs, and required that people DO things for each other. Then he didn't leave anything written, but he DID leave certain acts: Baptism, the Eucharist, Anointing the Sick, and the blessing of Marriage (by performing his first public miracle at one, after being nagged into it by his Jewish mama, and by his nullification of the Scriptural law of divorce and substitution of a prohibition of it), and we had better do these things scrupulously.

There are 613 mitvot in the Torah, but Jesus nullifies most of them, reducing them to a handful. Given that he was God incarnate, we're best off if we don't fight too much over writings he didn't leave, but that we do do the tasks he left behind to be done. I honestly cannot see any other interpretation of the Scripture that is reasonable.


65 posted on 01/29/2007 11:52:18 AM PST by Vicomte13 (Et alors?)
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To: P-Marlowe

1 sin != 1 penance


66 posted on 01/29/2007 11:54:23 AM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

The whole notion is anti-biblical nonsense; folks die and go to heaven or hell until the final judgement when all are judged.


67 posted on 01/29/2007 11:55:16 AM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii

That, of course, is what the article addresses. While you may well reject the doctrine, to reject it as "anti-biblical" is insupportable.


68 posted on 01/29/2007 11:58:04 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Vicomte13
You're right. It didn't satisfy me :) And, your judging of the Church didn't persuade me. The New Testament teaches the Church is the Pillar and Ground of Truth. I don't recall you being mentioned in the New Testament:

You think Hell and Purgatory are the same place. So?

Why don't you cite an Ecumenical Council or something from The Sources of Catholic Dogma or Catechism of the Catholic Church you oppose and then maybe we can have something solid to kick around.

69 posted on 01/29/2007 11:58:54 AM PST by bornacatholic
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To: pjr12345

Your scenario was hog wash 70 years ago when I was a kid and it still is today. The only people I knew who used that rationale were fallen away Catholics. Ar you fallen away?


70 posted on 01/29/2007 12:00:27 PM PST by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

It isn't biblcial. There's no mention of such a place, there's no mention of 'working off sins', and after the resurection there is no mention of any place that could even be confused with purgatory.

"Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."


71 posted on 01/29/2007 12:01:00 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: bornacatholic

Actually I think a list of councils which mention a place called purgatory (and what they said about it) would go great lengths toward illuminating this discussion...


72 posted on 01/29/2007 12:02:38 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii

There is mention of being purified 'as by fire', and there is the inescapable business of the Maccabbees praying for the dead, and there's that bit about sins being forgiven "in this world or in the next".


73 posted on 01/29/2007 12:03:17 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: kawaii; GCC Catholic; xzins; blue-duncan; Dr. Eckleburg; Pyro7480; DungeonMaster; HarleyD; ...
What makes you think that any pennance you do on earth or in purgatory is going to be sufficient to make you undefiled? Are you made righteous by Christ or by your own works or efforts?

If you are made righteous in Christ, then what purpose is served in your being punished for your sins. Did not Christ pay the penalty for those sins? Does God demand more judgment than that laid upon his Son at Calvary? Wasn't that sufficient?

74 posted on 01/29/2007 12:04:24 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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To: ArrogantBustard

(Assuming revelations don't lie; folks who ain't yet in heaven and are not in the sea, death, or hell are pretty well screwed in as much as no chance for their redemption in judgement is mention...)

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


75 posted on 01/29/2007 12:04:46 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii

Again, disagree if you like ... but calling it "anti-biblical" is insupportable, in the face of support in the Old Testament, the Gospels, and the Epistles.


76 posted on 01/29/2007 12:04:51 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Vicomte13
Don't be too mad at the Protestants, just as they shouldn't be too mad at us.

*U R Catholic?

77 posted on 01/29/2007 12:05:34 PM PST by bornacatholic
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To: P-Marlowe

And if your are purified by Christ on what basis can one possibly presume to affect the duration or difficulty of a process which is in CHRIST' hands?


78 posted on 01/29/2007 12:05:51 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: pjr12345

XXII. Of Purgatory.

The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.


79 posted on 01/29/2007 12:05:53 PM PST by ichabod1 ("Liberals read Karl Marx. Conservatives UNDERSTAND Karl Marx." Ronald Reagan)
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To: ichabod1

quite a mouth full.

too bad that scripture is rife with mentions of statues, images, inovations, sacraments, incense, and the church being able to pardon folks...


80 posted on 01/29/2007 12:07:13 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: kawaii

Fencing with Bible verses is not a very profitable exercise. Have you read the article yet?


81 posted on 01/29/2007 12:08:39 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: kawaii

With God, all things are possible.


82 posted on 01/29/2007 12:11:29 PM PST by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed.)
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To: ArrogantBustard; GCC Catholic; HarleyD; blue-duncan; AlbionGirl; P-Marlowe; xzins; Gamecock; ...
Me: Can a person still buy an Indulgence?

YOU: No. Never could, either.

You and GCC Catholic seem to have a disagreement about the current sale of indulgences.

Per this post

"Yes, indulgences can be obtained. That said, a vast majority are gained through prayers or simple acts of penance which cost absolutely nothing."

(And that said, there must be a "minority" of indulgences out there that CAN BE and ARE obtained through filthy lucre.)

And this post

"Some indulgences tied to a particular location (a particular shrine or the like), and getting to them often requires some money"

Thus readers are to understand that it is still possible for indulgences to be sold and that this practice continues to this day.

If one can't state one's "opponent's" position clearly, completely, and correctly, in terms with which he would agree, and which he would find inoffensive, one has absolutely no business commenting on the matter.

I think your position has been stated clearly in this post and in GCCC's posts. Again, Rome contradicts itself at the expense of the truth.

83 posted on 01/29/2007 12:14:26 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: pjr12345
Yeah, you're right. There isn't anything in the new testament referencing Purgatory...

except Mt 5:48...

expect Heb 12:14

except Jam 3:2

except Rev 21:27

except 1 Jn 5:16,17

except Jam 1:14,15

except Mat 12:32

except MT 12:36

except 1 Cor 3:15

except 1 Pet 318-20

except 1 Peter 4:6

except 2 Tim 1:16-18

except 1 Cor 15:29,30

84 posted on 01/29/2007 12:15:11 PM PST by bornacatholic
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To: franky

Which is pretty much the whole crux of the problem with purgatory. It chalks man's salvation up to his own abilities to save himself after the fact rather than to God's supreme power, judgement, and mercy.


85 posted on 01/29/2007 12:15:24 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

i'll bet its more profitable than fencing articles.

either way i get my doctrine from my church, not newspapers.


86 posted on 01/29/2007 12:16:14 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: bornacatholic

which could as easily be speaking about hell plain and simple.


87 posted on 01/29/2007 12:16:45 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: blue-duncan
2 Macc 12....44 (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) 45 And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

Douai Commentary...45 "With godliness"... Judas hoped that these men who died fighting for the cause of God and religion, might find mercy: either because they might be excused from mortal sin by ignorance; or might have repented of their sin, at least at their death.

46It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

46 "It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead"... Here is an evident and undeniable proof of the practice of praying for the dead under the old law, which was then strictly observed by the Jews, and consequently could not be introduced at that time by Judas, their chief and high priest, if it had not been always their custom.

88 posted on 01/29/2007 12:21:04 PM PST by bornacatholic
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; ArrogantBustard
(And that said, there must be a "minority" of indulgences out there that CAN BE and ARE obtained through filthy lucre.)

NO. What I said is that some indulgences are tied to a place or thing at a specific geographical location. It is a simple fact of economics that traveling somewhere costs money. This is NOT money that the Church gets.

What I was speaking to in the post of mine that you pointed out is that frankly, some of the indulgences aren't simple . (did you actually look at the list I posted?) Attending the first Mass of a newly ordained priest? Not particularly easy. Visiting the Stational Churches of Rome? Free to obtain, but not free to get there (unless I plan to walk/swim), and in light of that certainly not easy.

You cannot, and as ArrogantBustard pointed out, never could "BUY" indulgences.

89 posted on 01/29/2007 12:25:47 PM PST by GCC Catholic
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To: kawaii

Ping me when Jesus says to you, "Today, you will be with me in Paradise."


90 posted on 01/29/2007 12:27:00 PM PST by bornacatholic
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To: bornacatholic; AlbionGirl; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; P-Marlowe

Mt 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
-Which we can't be, it was proven over and over gain. That is why we needed the second Adam, to impute his righteousness to us,


Heb 12:14Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
-see above

James 3:2We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.
-That's right, we all do stumble. There is one perfect man...

Revelation 21:27 Nothing impure will ever enter it, nor will anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
-That is 100% correct. But we have already seen that all have stumbled, and we know that it is written that all have fallen short. That is why we need the one who lived the life we can't live, and died for our sins so we don't have to.

Christ didn't die for the righteous, but for the sinner.


I could go on, but you get the point




91 posted on 01/29/2007 12:27:22 PM PST by Gamecock (Ecclesia reformata, semper reformanda secundum verbum Dei)
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To: bornacatholic

both of which are just as applicable if folks were already sent to hell but could be saved in the final judgement through the prayers of the saints (and their living relatives/aquaintances)


92 posted on 01/29/2007 12:27:31 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: bornacatholic

ping me when Jesus tells you you receive 'reduced time in purgatory'.


93 posted on 01/29/2007 12:28:22 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: Gamecock

'all have sinned' there are no 'righteous whom Christ didn't die for; Christ died for all for all have sinned.


94 posted on 01/29/2007 12:29:14 PM PST by kawaii (Orthodox Christianity -- Proclaiming the Truth Since 33 A.D.)
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To: Vicomte13
And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him:They have no wine.And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.

*Mary was nagging, huh?

95 posted on 01/29/2007 12:31:29 PM PST by bornacatholic
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To: Dr. Eckleburg; GCC Catholic; HarleyD; blue-duncan; AlbionGirl; P-Marlowe; xzins; Gamecock; ...
Again, Rome contradicts itself at the expense of the truth.

Baloney.

1) ""Yes, indulgences can be obtained. That said, a vast majority are gained through prayers or simple acts of penance which cost absolutely nothing." (And that said, there must be a "minority" of indulgences out there that CAN BE and ARE obtained through filthy lucre.)" ...
To GCCC's list must be added various works of mercy. You can 'ass-u-me' anything you like ... but your assumptions tell nothing about Catholic Doctrine.

2) "Some indulgences tied to a particular location (a particular shrine or the like), and getting to them often requires some money" Thus readers are to understand that it is still possible for indulgences to be sold and that this practice continues to this day."
Last time I checked, United Airlines was not part of the Catholic Church.

Finally, your article linked DID NOT support your false notion that indulgences are for sale. In fact, it cannot ... nor can anything else.

If one can't state one's "opponent's" position clearly, completely, and correctly, in terms with which he would agree, and which he would find inoffensive, one has absolutely no business commenting on the matter.

96 posted on 01/29/2007 12:31:48 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: kawaii
It is taught by the Church Scripture teaches is the Pillarand Ground of Truth.

I'll go with the Bible :)

97 posted on 01/29/2007 12:32:39 PM PST by bornacatholic
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To: GCC Catholic
I thought your point was quite clear ... and I thought that the article about the Jubilee Year was also quite clear.

I'm at a loss as to how someone can read them, and grossly misconstrue them, if one is reading them in good faith. It just boggles the mind.

98 posted on 01/29/2007 12:35:49 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ichabod1

In Matthew 18 our Lord mentions two separate things in His Parable, Gehenna and torturers. Gehenna being hell and eternity, where as torturers is shown in the following verse:

“Matthew 18-34
Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. “

Does our Lord’s use of “pay back” and jail in many verses possibly indicate a purgatory of contrition for our sins for a definitive period? The person is put away for a period and then let back into society.


99 posted on 01/29/2007 12:38:33 PM PST by franky (Pray for the souls of the faithful departed.)
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To: kawaii

balderdash. It does no such thing.


100 posted on 01/29/2007 12:39:02 PM PST by bornacatholic
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