You Tell Us: Does Rome Provide Infallible Certainty About the Gospel?

You have posted a good point. The irony is that it will be answered two ways...strict doctrinal reading showing that all those outside of the Catholic Church are not saved, or that God will save ignorant Protestants/Muslims/etc. that are outside of the church of Rome.

What gets me, is when either of these ideas are defended, it takes a college degree to comprehend how salvation is obtained. This conflicts with a few truths that I know...(in no particular order)

-Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

-John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME.

-I know that I am saved because of the Holy Spirit's work in my life and confirmation through Scripture, and I am not now nor have ever been part of the Catholic Church.

-Jesus said to not prevent the children from coming to him. Children can believe, without having all those catechismic hoops jumped through.

This isn't a detailed response, so for those lurkers wishing for more details feel free to FReepmail me.

Sincerely

It's like this. Islam is a heresy, just like modernism or protestantism. But unfortunately the children of heretics are usually in the invincibly ignorant category. So they aren't truly culpable for the heresy. So it's up to God's mercy what happens to them. And since heresy is related to salvation history, heretics are part of the plan of salvation, just not necessarily their own.

"who stirred up the hornets nest this time?"

LOL

Well it appears that the simplicity of the revealed Word could be appealed to here..... otherwise we are stuck with a Universalist/Unitarian RCC... at least part of the time... when politically convenient or in case of global uprising, etc....

After all of this discussion, I really had to go back and read the original post because I was getting a bit fuzzy and confused. Reading the original post, however, didn't help me one bit! I am even more confused at what appears to be confusion at the highest levels of the RCC on a subject that should be straight forward.

Note:

GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION

I think(here we go with the 'I think'.... please don't ascribe infallibility to THIS soldier's thoughts) that when treading on doctrines of salvation, we should tread very lightly and very carefully. The idea of including those within a 'faith' revealed by Satan himself that makes itself diametrically opposed to Christianity into the plan of salvation is preposterous. Read the latter writings of their prophet to discover this claim.

"It's like this. Islam is a heresy, just like modernism or protestantism."

“Through the practice of what is good in their own religious traditions, and following the dictates of their consciences, members of other religions positively respond to God's invitation and receive salvation in Jesus Christ, even though they may not recognize Him as their Savior.”

TALK ABOUT HERESY

Could one of my Catholic FRiends please tell me exactly what the Catholic church believes is required for salvation?

Hi Gamecock. The Catholic Church teaches that THE essential element required for salvation is God's grace. Without that grace, there is absolutely NO hope for salvation whatsoever.

Now, she also believes that Christ has instituted a Church as the *ONLY* means by which God's grace is distributed among men. This is what we mean by "Outside the Church there is no salvation". Christ always saves through the Church and its sacraments. So there is no room for anyone to say "I have been saved by Christ outside the Church, outside of the sacraments". Can't happen.

BUT! The sacraments operate in different ways. For example, Baptism is a *must* for entering the Church. But it has always been taught among Catholic theologians that Baptism can take three forms all of which have the same effect: sacramental Baptism (i.e. water baptism); Baptism of Blood, and Baptism of Desire. Likewise, a valid Confession can take different forms: sacramental (through a priest), or an act of perfect contrition (alone to God). And Communion can be sacramental or (barring the ability to receive) spiritual.

Thus, taking our hypothetical Muslim who never darkens the door of a Christian Church in his life--that person *can* be saved....IF he is born again of water and the Spirit (Baptism of Desire), IF all of his mortal sins are washed away by an act of love (Perfect Contrition), and IF he wills to unite himself with Christ (Spiritual Communion).

But if he does all those things, he is not being saved *outside* the Church, but rather *in and through* the Church.

I hope that makes sense. This is a complicated issue, and one that I'm afraid is hard to explain really well.

I hope that makes sense. This is a complicated issue, and one that I'm afraid is hard to explain really well.

To me, no that doesn't make any sense. The salvation message is simple and repeated throughout the New Testament (which makes sense, because the first Christians didn't have all the books/epistles we have to piece a complicated message togather).

The basic requirements is that you need to believe in Jesus. When you take out Jesus or add in other things along with Jesus, you create something that was not taught by Jesus or the earliest Christians.

John 3:35-36 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into HIS hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Sincerely

There's such a thing as oversimplifying, though.

You are right to point out, yes, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life." But look a little later in that same passage: "Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." And earlier in John 3: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

There is more here that just a bare belief.

And anyway, I think you're dangerously close to pushing a "works" theology if you put too much emphasis on the belief of a person to the exclusion of grace. The belief of a person in Jesus means zilch without God's grace....remember James: "even the devils believe, and tremble".

And anyway, I think you're dangerously close to pushing a "works" theology if you put too much emphasis on the belief of a person to the exclusion of grace.

You must have missed my discussion with a Calvinist on a different thread. One, where do you see in the Bible that belief equates to "work?" Two, I recognize that everything involved in salvation (Grace, Scriptures, the Holy Spirit, even the ability to believe) are provided by God. Salvation and the way to salvation is all provided by God. It is up to us to believe, though.

Of course everything simple can be broken down into many complex things, but the point is that Jesus, Paul, etc. weren't out saying something akin to...."Go to this sanctioned group of believers, eat only their wafers and wine, and pray to these passed on (dead) believers to help you, and maybe you'll reach salvation. But if you happen to be a Buddist or Muslim that is ignorant of Jesus, then all that talk about Jesus only being the way is over-ruled."

Compare what Gamecock posted and the Catholic Church tries to teach to this simple message...

Matt 11:28-29 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

or this...

John 5:24 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Sincerely

One, where do you see in the Bible that belief equates to "work?" Two, I recognize that everything involved in salvation (Grace, Scriptures, the Holy Spirit, even the ability to believe) are provided by God.

What I meant was that the idea that belief is salvific *apart from God's grace* is clearly heretical (Montanism). If you are saying that everything, even belief, comes from God then you are 100% correct and I have absolutely no problem with it.

I am not a big fan of the whole "invincible ignorance" argument because, though true in a sense, its overuse leads to all sort of sloppiness. So no need to challenge it with me.

Basically, the Church teaches that if a Muslim *were* saved, it would be in Christ, by Christ, and thru Christ that his salvation would happen. And if so, the Muslim would by that very fact BE a member of the Church--whether he is enrolled in the parish registry or not. So the dogma still stands...Outside the Church, there is no salvation.

Don't get thrown by our differing ecclesiology here. I know I believe in a visible institution of a Church and you only believe in an invisible body of believers. But the argument works just as well either way. Outside that body of believers in Christ, there is no salvation...so in order for someone to be saved, he must be joined to the body.

If you are saying that everything, even belief, comes from God then you are 100% correct and I have absolutely no problem with it.

I am saying that the ability to believe comes from God, but we have the choice to believe or not. This, I know, is a little bit off of topic, so we don't have to get into it if you don't want.

Outside that body of believers in Christ, there is no salvation...so in order for someone to be saved, he must be joined to the body.

Where do you find in Scripture that in order for someone to be saved they must be joined to the body? This sounds like salvation by "works." That reads to me like a person is saved by them joining a body.

Maybe this is splitting hairs, but I think that you have some words twisted around. I would say that once someone is saved (which happens through belief/faith) they are then joined (by the Holy Spirit) to the Body of Christ. This isn't an action by them by one by the Holy Spirit.

Sincerely

I completely disagree.

If the Catholic Church does believe what I posted, then how are they different from Islamists who believe unless you convert to Islam...you will not go to heaven.

and,

What are they saying about all the different denominations of protestants? The world and the rest of Christendom ought to know, and so would I want to know before becoming a Catholic.

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