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The Early Church Fathers on Contraception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
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Posted on 02/15/2007 2:16:28 PM PST by NYer

The Early Church Fathers were undivided in their condemnation of artificial birth control. In fact, all Christian churches were in agreement on this until 1930.

Letter of Barnabas

Moreover, he [Moses] has rightly detested the weasel [Lev. 11:29]. For he means, "Thou shalt not be like to those whom we hear of as committing wickedness with the mouth with the body through uncleanness [orally consummated sex]; nor shalt thou be joined to those impure women who commit iniquity with the mouth with the body through uncleanness" (Letter of Barnabas 10:8 [A.D. 74]).

Clement of Alexandria

Because of its divine institution for the propagation of man, the seed is not to be vainly ejaculated, nor is it to be damaged, nor is it to be wasted (The Instructor of Children 2:10:91:2 [A.D. 191]).

To have coitus other than to procreate children is to do injury to nature (ibid. 2:10:95:3).

Hippolytus

[Christian women with male concubines], on account of their prominent ancestry and great property, the so-called faithful want no children from slaves or lowborn commoners, they use drugs of sterility [oral contraceptives] or bind themselves tightly in order to expel a fetus which has already been engendered [abortion] (Refutation of All Heresies 9:7 [A.D. 225]).

Lactantius

[Some] complain of the scantiness of their means, and allege that they have not enough for bringing up more children, as though, in truth, their means were in [their] power . . . or God did not daily make the rich poor and the poor rich. Wherefore, if any one on any account of poverty shall be unable to bring up children, it is better to abstain from relations with his wife (Divine Institutes 6:20 [A.D. 307]).

God gave us eyes not to see and desire pleasure, but to see acts to be performed for the needs of life; so too, the genital ['generating'] part of the body, as the name itself teaches, has been received by us for no other purpose than the generation of offspring (ibid. 6:23:18).

Epiphanius

They [certain Egyptian heretics] exercise genital acts, yet prevent the conceiving of children. Not in order to produce offspring, but to satisfy lust, are they eager for corruption (Medicine Chest Against Heresies 26:5:2 [A.D. 375]).

John Chrysostom

[l]n truth, all men know that they who are under the power of this disease [the sin of covetousness] are wearied even of their father's old age [wishing him to die so they can inherit]; and that which is sweet) and universally desirable, the having of children, they esteem grievous and unwelcome. Many at least with this view have even paid money to be childless, and have mutilated nature, not only killing the newborn, but even acting to prevent their beginning to live [sterilization] (Homilies on Matthew 28:5 [A.D. 391]).

Why do you sow where the field is eager to destroy the fruit, where there are medicines of sterility [oral contraceptives], where there is murder before birth?. . . Indeed, it is something worse than murder, and I do not know what to call it; for she does not kill what is formed but prevents its formation. What then? Do you condemn the gift of God and Fight with his [natural] laws? (Homilies on Romans 24 [A.D. 391]).

Jerome

But I wonder why he [the heretic Jovinianus] set Judah and Tamar before us for an example, unless perchance even harlots give him pleasure; or Onan, who was slain because he grudged his brother seed. Does he imagine that we approve of any sexual intercourse except for the procreation of children? (Against Jovinian 1:19 [A.D. 393]).

You may see a number of women who are widows before they are wives. Others, indeed, will drink sterility [oral contraceptives] and murder a man not yet born, [and some commit abortion] (Letters 22:13 [A.D. 396]).

Augustine

This proves that you [Manicheans] approve of having a wife, not for the procreation of children, but for the gratification of passion. In marriage, as the marriage law declares, the man and woman come together for the procreation of children. Therefore, whoever makes the procreation of children a greater sin than copulation, forbids marriage and makes the woman not a wife but a mistress, who for some gifts presented to her, is joined to the man to gratify his passion (The Morals of the Manichees 18:65 [A.D. 388]).

You [Manicheans] make your auditors adulterers of their wives when they take care lest the women with whom they copulate conceive. They take wives according to the laws of matrimony by tablets announcing that the marriage is contracted to procreate children; and then, fearing because of your [religious] law [against childbearing] . . . they copulate in a shameful union only to satisfy lust for their wives. They are unwilling to have children, on whose account alone marriages are made. How is it, then, that you are not those prohibiting marriage, as the apostle predicted of you so long ago [I Tim. 4:1-4], when you try to take from marriage what marriage is? When this is taken away, husbands are shameful lovers, wives are harlots, bridal chambers are brothels, fathers-in-law are pimps (Against Faustus 15:7 [A.D. 400]).

For thus the eternal law, that is, the will of God creator of all creatures, taking counsel for the conservation of natural order, not to serve lust, but to see to the preservation of the race, permits the delight of mortal flesh to be released from the control of reason in copulation only to propagate progeny (ibid. 22:30).

Caesarius

Who is he who cannot warn that no woman may take a potion [an oral contraceptive or an abortifacient] so that she is unable to conceive or condemns in herself the nature which God willed to be fecund? As often as she could have conceived or given birth, of that many homicides she will be held guilty, and, unless she undergoes suitable penance, she will be damned by eternal death in hell. If a women does not wish to have children, let her enter into a religious agreement with her husband; for chastity is the sole sterility of a Christian woman (Sermons 1:12 [A.D. 522]).


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiccaucus; contraception; cultureoflife; humanaevitae; orthodox; prolife
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To: NYer

"In the Catholic Church, this is NOT a personal matter. Church teaching clearly outlaws any form of artificial birth control."

I know, and it doesn't work does it? It has just caused the laity to show contempt for the Latin Church's teachings.

"However, any priest who approves (not absolves) them of this sin is complicit."

Catholic "priests" absolve people of their sins? Remarkable; another difference with Orthodoxy.


51 posted on 02/15/2007 6:43:48 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis
I know, and it doesn't work does it?

NFP works ... in fact, it is rapidly growing as the form of choice by the Evangelicals! How comforting to know that what the Catholic Church has always taught is now being picked up by non-Catholic denominations.

It has just caused the laity to show contempt for the Latin Church's teachings.

You're really stretching it here, aren't you, K? Even you conscience dictates that the Church should never legitimize abortafacients to their members.

52 posted on 02/15/2007 6:54:04 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Kolokotronis
"So do you oppose any and all types of regulation of birth?" My personal opinion is really neither here nor there; I agree with Orthodoxy's position.

I'm not running too well on the clear side today, I was looking for what the Orthodox belief is. What is Orthodox's position?

Of course it does! The fact that timing may be off and a baby results doesn't mean that the whole exercise of NFP isn't designed to avoid just that.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this.

53 posted on 02/15/2007 6:55:47 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: Kolokotronis

Thanks for the definitions....


54 posted on 02/15/2007 6:57:02 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: Kolokotronis

Actually, I don't know of any Catholic families practicing illict methods for preventing pregnancy. Our parish is refered to as Humane Vitae parish by our pastor. Of the Catholics I went to school with, all are very open about how their marital lives are in complete harmony with the Church's teachings.

I am surrounded by those who hold the Church's teachings in the highest regard. So, from my personal experience, it's working just fine.


55 posted on 02/15/2007 7:01:58 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: NYer; Kolokotronis

Ding Ding Ding!

Round one complete, sports fans!

In one corner we have K with "priests" and in the other we have N with abortafacients.

Are you ready to Ruuuummble!????

DING!


56 posted on 02/15/2007 7:04:06 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: NYer

"I know, and it doesn't work does it?

NFP works"

That's not what you were talking about nor what I was responding to. The dogmatic declaration hasn't worked, NYer. NFP, like other kinds of birth control works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't. That's not the point.

"You're really stretching it here, aren't you, K?"

You really think so? Why is Roman Catholic contraceptive usage marginally higher than the rest of the population then? For that matter, why is the abortion rate for Catholic women substantially (not marginally, substantially) higher than for Protestant women?

In the meantime, abortion is murder. That's an easy case, NYer. I do have to wonder why, however, the abortion rate among Catholic women is so high.


57 posted on 02/15/2007 7:04:21 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis

Does the Orthodox Church have a position on the morality of abortaficiant contraceptives, such as the pill, the depo shot, norplant, IUD etc, all of which agknowledge at least the possibility of having abortaficiant side effects?


58 posted on 02/15/2007 7:04:53 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: Kolokotronis; NYer

Have some questions and observations, but to tired to right now.


59 posted on 02/15/2007 7:12:57 PM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Enosh

"In one corner we have K with "priests"...."

"Priests", the "Catholic" church and "bishops" come from the attitude which produced "spiritual" fathers/bishops. :) I'm glad someone noticed. Ironic!


60 posted on 02/15/2007 7:12:58 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: mockingbyrd

"Does the Orthodox Church have a position on the morality of abortaficiant contraceptives, such as the pill, the depo shot, norplant, IUD etc, all of which agknowledge at least the possibility of having abortaficiant side effects?"

Abortion is murder. That's the Orthodox position.


61 posted on 02/15/2007 7:14:03 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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I do have to wonder why, however, the abortion rate among Catholic women is so high.

Ouch, sports fans! K comes out with an upper-cut. N is stunned, but gathering strength.

62 posted on 02/15/2007 7:15:59 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: Kolokotronis

And abortaficiants are recognized as such and are condemned?

I am not trying to badger you, I hope it doesn't come across that way. I am feeling especially think tonight, been battling my daughter on eating brocoli. Apparently the only way that will work is if you eat it as though you are Cookie Monster.

So that's the brain cell level I'm at right now...thanks for your patience.


63 posted on 02/15/2007 7:21:55 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: mockingbyrd

"And abortaficiants are recognized as such and are condemned?"

I sincerely do not know what spiritual fathers tell their spiritual children about this. I do know, because our Metropolitan, as well as virtually all other Orthodox metropolitans in this country at least and in Greece, regularly and publically condemn abortion by any means, that it would seem likely that they are. By the way, a lot of good it does. The abortion rate in Greece is staggering.


64 posted on 02/15/2007 7:26:41 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: GCC Catholic

I wasn't born at the time either, but your understanding is basically how I heard it too.


65 posted on 02/15/2007 7:28:40 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: Kolokotronis; mockingbyrd
Abortion is murder. That's the Orthodox position.

But, according to a previous post, the decision to use 'artificial birth control' (i.e. an abortaficient), is okay. Please clarify the diffference for us. When is it 'okay' to abort an unborn child, in the Orthodox Church, using artificial birth control?

66 posted on 02/15/2007 7:30:49 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Kolokotronis
So do I have the Orthodox position correct:

Don't use contraception unless there is serious need. If there is serious need whatever form is used is determined by the couple, with guidance from a spiritual head.
67 posted on 02/15/2007 7:34:03 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: NYer

All of this talk about abortifacient birth control pills because they prevent implantation leads me to the following question:

If you believe prevention of implantation is abortion, then the logical belief that follows is that every time a fertilized egg doesn't implant, a woman has a miscarriage and a soul goes to wherever unborn baby souls go, whether heaven, or the discredited limbo, or somewhere else.

I don't believe the Church has ever taken that stance which, IMHO, makes the birth control pills are abortifacients per the Catholic Church argument difficult to maintain.


68 posted on 02/15/2007 7:37:49 PM PST by cammie
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Sports fans! N is up! She ducks, she swerves, she JABS!
69 posted on 02/15/2007 7:39:20 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: cammie
I don't believe the Church has ever taken that stance which, IMHO, makes the birth control pills are abortifacients per the Catholic Church argument difficult to maintain.

How so? whether heaven, or the discredited limbo, or somewhere else

Please remember that this is a Caucus thread. Respectful questions and discussion of the issues is the point. This statement reads as an attack on particular Catholic thought.

70 posted on 02/15/2007 7:41:59 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: Kolokotronis; Enosh; mockingbyrd
The dogmatic declaration hasn't worked, NYer.

Of course it works. The problem, obviously, is that those who hear it are not listening. They would prefer to hear those positions that support their practices. That is not about to happen!

Why is Roman Catholic contraceptive usage marginally higher than the rest of the population then? For that matter, why is the abortion rate for Catholic women substantially (not marginally, substantially) higher than for Protestant women?

Personal choice! If I turn a deaf ear to what my priest tells me, I have then opted to follow my conscience, even if it is diametrically opposed to what the Church teaches. That is not the fault of the Church.

I do have to wonder why, however, the abortion rate among Catholic women is so high.

Is it? What is the abortion rate among Catholics?

Turrning a deaf ear towards the teachings of one's Church does not negate them. On the other hand, when a Church accedes to the weaknesses of its members and justifies their failings, I would step back and take a closer look.

71 posted on 02/15/2007 7:43:10 PM PST by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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... She coldcocks the announcer...
Oww..
72 posted on 02/15/2007 7:48:34 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: Kolokotronis

Let's just say your assertion about contraceptive use and abortions among Catholics are accurate. (I have never seen those statistics, but honestly it wouln't surprise me, at least the abortion one)

So what?

What does that have to do with the truth or wisdom of a particular teaching? Last time I checked truth wasn't a popularity contest. Look at Christ in John 6. As a majority of His followers abandoned Him due to His teachings, did He modify anything, decide that He was wrong? No. So why does the fact that people refuse to believe something make it in error?


73 posted on 02/15/2007 7:50:23 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: Enosh

awwww.....and I was getting fond of the guy.....


74 posted on 02/15/2007 7:51:47 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: NYer

"When is it 'okay' to abort an unborn child, in the Orthodox Church, using artificial birth control?"

Never, so far as I know.


75 posted on 02/15/2007 7:59:45 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: mockingbyrd

Sort of. It isn't just guidance, like a suggestion. A spiritual father often has to "guide" firmly and it is accepted that way by good Orthodox.


76 posted on 02/15/2007 8:01:43 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: mockingbyrd

"What does that have to do with the truth or wisdom of a particular teaching?"

It may or may not have anything to do with the truth of the teaching; it may have a great deal to do with the wisdom of it and whether or not it is truly dogma.


77 posted on 02/15/2007 8:04:30 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: mockingbyrd

"What does that have to do with the truth or wisdom of a particular teaching?"

It may or may not have anything to do with the truth of the teaching; it may have a great deal to do with the wisdom of it and whether or not it is truly dogma.


78 posted on 02/15/2007 8:05:15 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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Whoa, sports fans! K made the Sign of the Cross and just stood there.
Righteousness, determination? Stay tuned!
79 posted on 02/15/2007 8:07:44 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: NYer

"That is not the fault of the Church"

Well, we do all have free will. I contend, however, that by declaring something dogma ex cathedra which the people haven't accepted, this is an unfortunate result of a theological/ecclesiological mistake.

"Is it? What is the abortion rate among Catholics?"

If one includes Hispanic women, 33% higher than among Protestant women. Looked at another way, the rate of abortion among Catholic women of all ethnicities in the US is 5.1 per 1000 pregnancies.

By the way, I have been a member of my state's Right to Life organization for many, many years.


80 posted on 02/15/2007 8:16:54 PM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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"just stood there."
Hell with that. CHARGE!
81 posted on 02/15/2007 8:22:38 PM PST by Enosh (†)
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To: Kolokotronis

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Church does allow for trying to avoid pregnacy by abstinence for certain reasons. I couldn't tell you exactly what those are because it's late and I'm tired and should be in bed already.

After each of my 3 miscarriages my husband and I abstained during my fertile time basically for my mental health. My body probably could have handled a quick turn around but I am an emotional person. This was not years of abstinence but a short period of a few months to recover. I have no guilt over this.

We are open to as many children that God wants to bless us with and realize than the successes and failures are part of His plan.

Someone mentioned above that big families are rare today(forgive me for not looking back to see who it was to ping them?). However, I believe they are making a come back. My kids are in a Catholic children's choir and we are one of the smallest families in that group. We're working on our 4th. These families are mostly 6-8-10 kids strong. It's truly inspirational to be around them!


82 posted on 02/15/2007 8:42:24 PM PST by samiam1972 (http://imrunningforpresident.blogspot.com/)
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To: NYer
Sadly, only one church has rigidly defended this position on contraception, further testimony that our Lord promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide His church on earth.

Excuse me while I go puke over this bit of hubris.

83 posted on 02/15/2007 8:51:51 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: FormerLib

We are no longer and egrarian society. Children are not needed to help feed, support the family hence there is not the need to continually add hands to support the family unit...that and economics for many...

I'm not saying that I think it's a good thing, but it's pretty much the way it is here...other countries where they still support themselves by their families production of food is an entirely different story...


84 posted on 02/15/2007 8:55:36 PM PST by phatus maximus (John 6:29...Learn it, love it, live it...)
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To: NYer
But, according to a previous post, the decision to use 'artificial birth control' (i.e. an abortaficient), is okay.

Actually, I mentioned it no uncertain terms that such methods were not acceptable to the Orthodox.

Either you accept that or you choose to bear false witness. Which is it, then?

85 posted on 02/15/2007 9:03:57 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Kolokotronis

You have repeatedly made a rather serious error in stating that the Latin faithful have rejected Humane Vitae. Those who have rejected it are not faithful. They are dissenters. Furthermore, K., rule by majority action and opinion of the laity is a category never employed in Orthodoxy as you have outlined it. The faithful respond in the affirmative to the wisdom of their spiritual fathers. The faithless go their own way. It is the same for Rome as it is for the Orthodox world.


86 posted on 02/15/2007 9:22:41 PM PST by Maeve (The Church is not a mythical association of individuals opining on Truth.)
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To: NYer
This was not a popular decision and the Church has never backed down on this teaching.

"Truth is not subject to a majority vote." - Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger

87 posted on 02/15/2007 9:31:46 PM PST by ELS (Vivat Benedictus XVI!)
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To: ELS; NYer; Pyro7480
Since, therefore, openly departing from the uninterrupted Christian tradition some recently have judged it possible solemnly to declare another doctrine regarding this question, the Catholic Church, ... in order that she may preserve the chastity of the nuptial union from being defiled by this foul stain, ... proclaims anew: any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offence against the law of God and of nature, and those who indulge in such are branded with the guilt of a grave sin. - Pope Pius XI, Casti conubii

88 posted on 02/15/2007 9:46:50 PM PST by Maeve (The Church is not a mythical association of individuals opining on Truth.)
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To: FormerLib
Please update yourself on Natural Family Planning. It is not contraception, but more akin to absinence.

 
 
Making Babies: A Very Different Look at Natural Family Planning
 
Natural Family Planning Awareness Week, July 25, 2004
IS NATURAL FAMILY PLANNING A 'HERESY'? (Trads, please take note)
Thanks Doc: More (and Younger) Doctors Support Natural Family Planning
Couple say Natural Family Planning strengthens marriage
 
Reflections: Natural family planning vs sexism
 
British Medical Journal: Natural Family Planning= Effective Birth Control Supported by Catholic Chrch
 
Natural Family Planning

Clerical Contraception (Important Read! By Fr. Thomas J. Euteneuer)

89 posted on 02/15/2007 9:49:32 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
Oops.....
It is not contraception, but more akin to abstinence.
90 posted on 02/15/2007 9:52:36 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: NYer
The Early Church Fathers

The Early Church Fathers on The Church (Catholic Caucus)

Early Church Fathers on (Oral) Tradition - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Apostolic Succession - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Salvation Outside the Church [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]

The Early Church Fathers on Mary’s Perpetual Virginity - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on The Primacy of Peter/Rome (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)

The Early Church Fathers on Hell - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Intercession of the Saints - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on The Real Presence - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Confession / Reconciliation - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on the Immaculate Conception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Justification - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

The Early Church Fathers on Contraception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

91 posted on 02/15/2007 9:54:04 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Kolokotronis

**"When is it 'okay' to abort an unborn child, in the Orthodox Church, using artificial birth control?" **

Never in the Roman Church either.


92 posted on 02/15/2007 9:57:46 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Kolokotronis

Is there any evidence to indicate that Orthodox, as a whole, respect their Church's teachings on sex and marriage any more than Catholics do?


93 posted on 02/15/2007 10:19:32 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: Kolokotronis
It may or may not have anything to do with the truth of the teaching; it may have a great deal to do with the wisdom of it and whether or not it is truly dogma.

But if something is true, then it is wise to promulgate it. At least as far as God's laws are concerned. To act against the true, even unknowingly, is to act against your own nature.

94 posted on 02/15/2007 10:24:17 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
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To: mockingbyrd

"Is there any evidence to indicate that Orthodox, as a whole, respect their Church's teachings on sex and marriage any more than Catholics do?"

In some areas, yes. Divorce rates are low, in some places very low, by comparison for example. Certain ethnic groups have low abortion rates, Arab and American Orthodox people among them. In Eastern Europe and Greece, though, abortion rates are scandalous.


95 posted on 02/16/2007 3:50:12 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: mockingbyrd

"But if something is true, then it is wise to promulgate it."

To teach it, yes. To make it a necessary pre-condition for theosis/salvation, no. Something like ABC simply doesn't rise to that level.


96 posted on 02/16/2007 3:53:11 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Maeve

Re: the comment of Pope Pius XI, it sounds to me as if he is condemning NFP, Maeve.


97 posted on 02/16/2007 3:54:50 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Maeve
"You have repeatedly made a rather serious error in stating that the Latin faithful have rejected Humane Vitae. Those who have rejected it are not faithful. They are dissenters."

I used the word "faithful" as being synonymous with "laity". "Furthermore, K., rule by majority action and opinion of the laity is a category never employed in Orthodoxy as you have outlined it. The faithful respond in the affirmative to the wisdom of their spiritual fathers. The faithless go their own way. It is the same for Rome as it is for the Orthodox world." That's not what I described. In Orthodoxy, unless the hierarchy, clergy and laity together agree, a declaration cannot be dogmatic. It isn't a matter of democracy; its a matter of synergy. As for wisdom, well some is necessary for salvation and some isn't. Unlike in the Latin Church, Orthodoxy doesn't ascribe all wisdom to the hierarchs. It belongs to The Church.
98 posted on 02/16/2007 4:02:32 AM PST by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated!)
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To: Kolokotronis; ELS; NYer; Maeve
Re: the comment of Pope Pius XI, it sounds to me as if he is condemning NFP, Maeve.

It certainly sounds that way, doesn't it.

99 posted on 02/16/2007 4:35:50 AM PST by Pyro7480 ("Jesu, Jesu, Jesu, esto mihi Jesus" -St. Ralph Sherwin's last words at Tyburn)
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To: Salvation

What is the intent of Natural Family Planning and what does it achieve?

As I said, it is a distinction without a difference.


100 posted on 02/16/2007 4:42:28 AM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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