Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

The Early Church Fathers on Contraception - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Stay Catholic ^

Posted on 02/15/2007 2:16:28 PM PST by NYer

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-200201-210 next last
To: Scotswife

While I find any form of artificial contraception wrong, I do see your point. Something like a diaphram or condom will not cause loss of life. So hormonal contraception s wrong on two levels, the perversion of nature and the abortaficiant side effects.


151 posted on 02/17/2007 8:25:49 AM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]

To: mockingbyrd

"So hormonal contraception s wrong on two levels, the perversion of nature and the abortaficiant side effects."

Yes.
And as far as relating that to the subject of the early christians' interpretation of its position against contraception...these nuances certainly could not have been considered back then, because they could not have known about those differences.

What I'm having trouble with is when someone says "here is the position taken by the Early Fathers...etc..."

And I wonder to myself how the Early Fathers could have an "official position" on a subject of which they had incomplete information.


152 posted on 02/17/2007 10:00:27 AM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 151 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

I too see and understand your point about the early fathers. People like to pull out the argument that Aquinas believed that the soul did not enter a child until the quickening, or when it first move. They try to use that to say that life could not begin at conception and Aquinas agrees with them.

But Aquinas was arguing from the Aristoliean belief that motion required life. So he said that as soon as the baby moved that's when you knew it was alive. If he has today's techonology he would see the cell division that takes place at the moment of conception, as recognize that as life.

So I look at the fathers the same way. They didn't know that the window for pregnancy is about 36 hours. They did know that if you remove the life giving aspect of sex, then you pervert the act.


153 posted on 02/17/2007 10:13:45 AM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 152 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife
And while I know I'm not "supposed" to say -as a catholic- that condoms are "acceptable." In my mind -as I try to rely on common sense - they seem to be a less serious matter than medicines like the pill, hormone shots and patches.

The fact that there are greater and lesser sins is not news. We are tempted to go the route of "Well at least it's not as bad as that." However, that is not Christianity. Christ tells us that we must pick up our crosses and follow Him. Pursuing the path of the lesser of two evils rather than the path of the good is a very old trick.

154 posted on 02/17/2007 10:18:05 AM PST by TradicalRC ("...this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever..."-Pope St. Pius V)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 149 | View Replies]

To: TradicalRC

"The fact that there are greater and lesser sins is not news. We are tempted to go the route of "Well at least it's not as bad as that." However, that is not Christianity. Christ tells us that we must pick up our crosses and follow Him. Pursuing the path of the lesser of two evils rather than the path of the good is a very old trick."

I'm not sure if that exactly describes my line of thinking.

I think what my problem is that when someone tells me "this is what the Church has taught from the very beginning" and then they give me these quotes as proof....well, they don't exactly say what is being claimed.

What I'm reading is the opinion of men who considered abortion/contraception to be one and the same.
Well...they aren't.

I'm also reading opinions of men who believed any sex outside of procreation is sinful...well - that isn't true either.

So I'm left wondering why the Church is claiming to stand on this "proof" - when I just don't see it as very convincing proof.

Does that make sense?

Don't worry about scolding me. Believe me when I tell you I have been properly scolded by many good catholics, and that still hasn't settled my questions.


155 posted on 02/17/2007 11:33:11 AM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 154 | View Replies]

To: Captain Gates

I see your line of reasoning, but if this reasoning is to be followed through, then we as Catholics have to stop saying that 1 out of every 3 pregnancies is miscarried in the first trimester and start saying that over 2.5 out of every 3 pregnancies are miscarried in the first trimester because an overwhelming majority of life never develops.

That said, I'm still not sure I agree that a zygote seeking a home = life when 80% of them will not find a home, not implant, not develop past an 8-celled organism. Is a genetically whole zygote that cannot grow because it doesn't implant "life"? I don't have a yes or no answer and I can't just say "life has begun" because a zygote exists. It seems to me that, if a zygote is life, God has created human beings to cause a massive waste of life given the absurdly high percentage that never implant. God is not known for creating waste. So I still have no very good conclusion because I don't find any arguments pro unimplanted zygotes as life to be entirely persuasive.

I'm not saying that on this belief I'm going to go out and shoot myself up with Depo-Provera but I do think the modern Church needs to address head-on and in an unimpeachable philosophical manner the issue of whether all these unimplanted zygotes are "life" and the fact of all these millions of souls who are in heaven without getting past the 8-cells phase. Does that mean that I, an only child, may have 15 siblings? Sometimes I just have to throw up my hands and say "that just doesn't sit right with me" and the argument of all the souls of unimplanted zygotes going to heaven just doesn't sit right with me. Doesn't mean you're not right. Just means I can't really wrap my head around the logic of that.


156 posted on 02/17/2007 2:01:44 PM PST by cammie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 138 | View Replies]

To: Campion

"Absolutely right. That's also true of the IUD, BTW."

Roger that. Not oly the copper IUD but also with newer levonorgestrel based Mirena IUD.


157 posted on 02/17/2007 2:36:21 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 144 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

---"the use of a condom is a less serious matter than the use of the birth control pill."---

YOU BETCHA!!!


----"This is because it is possible for the pill to occasionally fail in preventing ovulation. There is a backup feature of the pill that prevents possible fertilized eggs from implanting."----


YOU ARE CORRECT AGAIN! And with todays lower estrogen 'contraceptive' products, this backup abortifacient mechanism has become a much bigger player..... causing the flushing of many little human creations away..... all in the name of convenience.

While I could really care less about NFP ... (not MY prerogative what you do behind closed doors) I do take issue with 'Christians' murdering Our Lord's little ones and going on with life as if nothing has happened..... and it is really convenient and clean looking.....


"So...you have the situation where many women are actually aborting but are not aware of it."

Here is where we must dig deeper..... is there sin there? Is it involuntary manslaughter? Is it maybe a sin to not want what God is planning for you? Interesting. I'd say that thin ice seems to paint an accurate picture here.... killing is not easily excused no matter what your plea.


158 posted on 02/17/2007 2:55:57 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 145 | View Replies]

To: cammie

Where are you getting the information that 80% of xygotes are not implanting?

How is this known?

And if life does not begin at fertilization, then when exactly does it begin?


159 posted on 02/17/2007 2:56:25 PM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 156 | View Replies]

To: Captain Gates

"Here is where we must dig deeper..... is there sin there? Is it involuntary manslaughter? Is it maybe a sin to not want what God is planning for you? Interesting. I'd say that thin ice seems to paint an accurate picture here.... killing is not easily excused no matter what your plea"


Well...there certainly is death, and I would say there is negligence due to ignorance.
How much of this constitutes "sin" is beyond me, as I think only God can really search a person's heart and determine their culpability.

As for me....I was once on the pill when I was younger, uninformed, and just starting off my marriage to a non-catholic.
One day I took the time to read the information that came with the prescription and stopped taking it.
I have no way of knowing if I ever aborted or not, so I don't know what degree of sin was committed.

My husband eventually converted and we are still wrestling with the whole NFP thing - but I supposed that is another topic.

We did confess the fact I had taken those pills and I trust someday God will let us know what the outcome of our actions were regarding that.

I think alot of responsibility also lies with those who write out the prescriptions to their patients without discussing this feature of the pill with them.
I think many women would not take it if they were told they could still be conceiving.


160 posted on 02/17/2007 3:05:18 PM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 158 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife
What I'm reading is the opinion of men who considered abortion/contraception to be one and the same. Well...they aren't.

I have to agree with you there. My rule for anytime someone claims that this and that are the same thing is to ask why there are two different terms for it. Abortion and contraception are two different things. They do share some qualities; i.e. sinful and frustrating the natural order.

I'm also reading opinions of men who believed any sex outside of procreation is sinful...well - that isn't true either.

I also agree with this. To say that sex is only for pro-creation is the flipside of saying it's purely for pleasure. Just as the early Church struggled with trying to understand the nature of God and the Trinity and wrestling with the various ideas about Him, the Church has also wrestled with the nature of Christian sexuality. At first, things are seen through a glass darkly, in time things become clearer. The Church has more precisely pointed to the breach created between the recreational and procreational aspects of sex as the problem. While the early Fathers ought to be considered for a complete understanding, the Chair of Peter holds the keys.

I would hope that those Christians who find birth control perfectly acceptable find pause when considering that ALL Christian denominations were against birth control until about the 1930's. Do they seriously believe that they are unaffected by secularist Age of Enlightenment thinking in this regard? That their opinion on this matter has Nothing To Do with the tempora and the mores in which they find themselves? I also believe that the path from acceptance of birth control (sex is for pleasure) has lead to the eventual acceptance of homosexuality. To be sure there are those who still maintain the acceptance of birth control while not accepting homosexuality, but there are always those with one foot on the old paradigm and one on the new. There were those who only accepted contraception for married couples only but never unmarried folks. How long do they think that society can be in for a penny but not for a pound? It never works that way, the acceptance of one part of a new paradigm logically and empirically leads society to accept the whole kit and caboodle.

Don't worry about scolding me. Believe me when I tell you I have been properly scolded by many good catholics, and that still hasn't settled my questions.

I am not good at scolding as I always regret falling into that mode. Seeing as that approach hasn't worked on you yet I shall try another recourse. Although considering the distinct possibility of terminal stubborness, I've no idea what that recourse may be...

161 posted on 02/17/2007 3:11:53 PM PST by TradicalRC ("...this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever..."-Pope St. Pius V)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 155 | View Replies]

To: TradicalRC

"Although considering the distinct possibility of terminal stubborness, I've no idea what that recourse may be..."

LOL!!!
Yes...I have been told many times how stubborn I am.
To be honest I would say I am someone who has become terminally FRUSTRATED.
A feeling like I have been backed into a corner with no way out.
Not that I haven't been informed of the choices I have mind you...I have been informed my choices are to continue to endanger my physical and mental health OR to live a life of celibacy with my husband.
Neither of which seems reasonable to me at the moment.


162 posted on 02/17/2007 3:17:54 PM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 161 | View Replies]

To: cammie

----"that just doesn't sit right with me"---

Beware of allowing yourself to try and rationalize abortive methods with emotions and empty reasoning. The love of self and of this world will continue to force you to this end until you give them up.

Supposing that you wanted to say that life happened much later after conception. Then what would you call the zygote? What would you call flushing this zygote as the Lord was in the process of knitting that new little child in the womb?

WHAT WOULD YOU CALL KILLING THE SUPPOSED 'PRE-CURSOR' TO GOD'S CREATED HUMAN BEING?

Something less than murder?


Are we playing semantics here? Let's look at the science involved. This is a viable organism that is growing and seeking nourishment from its mother. It is a GENETICALLY WHOLE ORGANISM.... it needs nothing more than nourishment from its mother to continue on to maturity..... and stopping this process..... is stopping this new life. AKA killing/murder.

Yes.... it does seem a shocking statement that your pastor's wife and daughter(for you protestants out there).... your mother and your sister..... your best friend and perhaps YOU are guilty of killing little children. After all, it doesn't feel like murder. The consequences sure don't seem to add up to such a grave sin. Surely it can't be killing God's little creations. It was all just so that we could plan our lives the way we wanted to without children getting in the way..... after all, God surely didn't intend for HIS children to have THAT MANY children. He must have blessed us with birth control to help us keep free of having excess children.....


We are in the last days. I am sorry, but this is a very big deception, and Satan is laughing all the way. It has always been one of his chief goals to rob God of HIS Godly offspring..... to rob Our Lord of the praise that HE would receive from his creation.

Take care what you do. You are not your own but were bought with Christ's blood. YOUR BODY IS NOT YOUR OWN.

Beware my brothers and sisters.


163 posted on 02/17/2007 3:26:16 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 156 | View Replies]

To: TradicalRC

----"Pursuing the path of the lesser of two evils rather than the path of the good is a very old trick."

Yep!


164 posted on 02/17/2007 3:31:15 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 154 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

------"What I'm reading is the opinion of men who considered abortion/contraception to be one and the same. Well...they aren't.

I'm also reading opinions of men who believed any sex outside of procreation is sinful...well - that isn't true either.

So I'm left wondering why the Church is claiming to stand on this "proof" - when I just don't see it as very convincing proof.

Does that make sense?

Don't worry about scolding me. Believe me when I tell you I have been properly scolded by many good catholics, and that still hasn't settled my questions."------


Sorry, but it appears that you may be well beyond MY help.(not to say that I'm any HELP). Still, it appears that you are trying to justify these things with your emotions. That's all I see in your posts. Do some reading on the subjects before you try to speak to these subjects...... if they don't FEEL right to you, that may be an indication that you are in need of a change of heart.

Please don't think I'm judging you or getting 'personal'..... I am just telling you what I am seeing from your posts.

To qualify my own 'opinions' that you so confidently dismiss as in error let me tell you about MYSELF. I hold bachelors degrees in cellular/molecular biology and chemistry and am a former embryologist with genetic engineering experience as a Howard Hughes Medical Institute Fellow. I hold a Doctor of Pharmacy degree and am intimately familiar with the products we are discussing.

I don't say these things to try and prove I am right. There are plenty of others with credentials greater than mine who would contend that birth control is not killing children....

To be sure, you can ALWAYS find someone who can satisfy your itching ears and lead you exactly where you want to go(or where you THINK you want to go).

So, wife of Scot, what's your background and why are YOU so sure of your position?


165 posted on 02/17/2007 3:52:55 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 155 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

So I think I addressed my rant above to you in error. .Please forgive any condescension! I'm doing all of this on my small palm pilot screen from bed in the wee hours(have a portable little keyboard that I'm using now), and it makes it tough sometimes to look at who's who!


166 posted on 02/17/2007 4:04:43 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 160 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife
To be honest I would say I am someone who has become terminally FRUSTRATED. A feeling like I have been backed into a corner with no way out. Not that I haven't been informed of the choices I have mind you...I have been informed my choices are to continue to endanger my physical and mental health OR to live a life of celibacy with my husband. Neither of which seems reasonable to me at the moment.

I hear you, sister.

167 posted on 02/17/2007 4:06:27 PM PST by TradicalRC ("...this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever..."-Pope St. Pius V)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 162 | View Replies]

To: TradicalRC

---"God gave us free will, rationality and fertility. We are to serve Him with our whole being, not just our genitalia or our minds. It IS up to God when a child is conceived."------

Let me preface my response with the fact that I am not Catholic, but I am in search of a spiritual home for my growing family. I no longer find it in the baptist roots that I grew up in, and I see much wisdom in the orthodox stances of the RCC.

NFP is not a really big issue with me. .Do I believe that it attempts to take control of the procreative nature of the sex act? YES. Do I believe it is a sin? NOT SURE.

But the above quote about the fact that we are rational creatures and taking control of fertility does not negate God's power to cause conception..... .that is so full of holes......

It could be said of any manner of control..... Hormonal birth control, as one example, is not 100% effective, but it has the exact same goals of NFP. It really is no different in it's goal. People take 'the pill' because they want to avoid having children. People use NFP(in this context) to avoid having children as well.

I think that this line of reasoning actually fits using barrier methods even better. Condoms(male and female) really fit this scenario the best because they don't involve the actual killing of the zygote.

So the use of the condom is to avoid having children(in this context). The use of NFP is to avoid having children.

To look at these two acts and judge them as sinful or not, we must look at the intent of the heart. Is it the intent of the person to avoid the procreative 'consequences' of the sex act with both of these methods? In this context, YES.

Is said avoidance sin?

Can't answer that one. I'd say that both methods are the attempt at
'sneaking by' the 'consequences' of the sex act and that they are highly suspect. They are perversions of what the Lord has instituted from the beginning.


168 posted on 02/17/2007 4:28:08 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 146 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

----"my choices are to continue to endanger my physical and mental health OR to live a life of celibacy with my husband.
Neither of which seems reasonable to me at the moment."-----


ME NEITHER!!!!!!

Am I missing something??

Why don't you relinquish complete control of the womb over to the Lord who is more than capable even though you may not be...??

Do you have some serious medical reasoning? WORST case scenario your husband can undergo the simple vasectomy(I say at WORST....)

Children are a beautiful thing!!!!!!!


169 posted on 02/17/2007 4:41:16 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 162 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

----"I think alot of responsibility also lies with those who write out the prescriptions to their patients without discussing this feature of the pill with them."------

YES. You are VERY RIGHT. I think that doctors who are aware of these mechanisms of action and their implications(which really should be all, but you're be surprised how little pharmacology the average medical school graduate knows) are very culpable for these sins and are agents of Satan. Regardless, they are acting as agents of Satan whether they know it or not.


-------"I think many women would not take it if they were told they could still be conceiving."




THIS IS SO HEAVY ON MY HEART. I daily struggle with this and try to counsel patients as to the effects of these drugs as much as I can.

I provide my own auxiliary stickers that say 'Warning: May cause spontaneous abortion," and Caution: Causes flushing of fertilized egg"

Please pray that God may increase my boldness.... but increase the love with which I speak even more. Help me to speak this truth in love to the many patients that I come into contact with every day.


170 posted on 02/17/2007 4:55:13 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 160 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

Where information comes from: Reprod Nutr Dev • Volume 28 • Issue 6B (translated). Journal describes how methodologies were applied.

If life doesn't begin at fertilization, then when exactly does it begin?

All I can do is shrug; I don't know. But if life begins at fertilization, then every month, 80% of new human lives get flushed down the toilet because they failed to implant. I guess I just don't see God being a very big fan of that kind of pointless waste of souls He's created - souls that were never known to exist by anyone other than God. Of course, now Capt. Gates can rant at me some more.


171 posted on 02/17/2007 7:47:56 PM PST by cammie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 159 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

What do you know about NFP? It is highly effective, I am very pleased with experience.

It doesn't have to be one or the other.


172 posted on 02/17/2007 11:44:28 PM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 162 | View Replies]

To: cammie

------"every month, 80% of new human lives get flushed down the toilet because they failed to implant."------

This is not a corect inidence rate for humans.


------"Of course, now Capt. Gates can rant at me some more."-----

Well, OK


173 posted on 02/18/2007 2:50:10 AM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 171 | View Replies]

To: Captain Gates

" Do some reading on the subjects before you try to speak to these subjects...... "

I have read...I have read and read read.
But thank you just the same.
(I have also sought counsel of priests - sometimes helpful and sometimes not.)

"Still, it appears that you are trying to justify these things with your emotions."

I wouldn't say I'm trying to justify or say "I am right."
I would say I have hit a wall...which can make a person emotional.

"To qualify my own 'opinions' that you so confidently dismiss as in error let me tell you about MYSELF."

Please refresh my memory - where did I "confidently dismiss" your opinion as being in error?

" I hold bachelors degrees in cellular/molecular biology and chemistry and am a former embryologist with genetic engineering experience as a Howard Hughes Medical Institute Fellow. I hold a Doctor of Pharmacy degree and am intimately familiar with the products we are discussing"

OK...bully for you.
I'm still not sure which statement you are referring to that has made you so defensive.
By "products" - are you referring to birth control?
If you read my posts you will see that I understand the abortive qualities of hormonal contraceptives.

"I don't say these things to try and prove I am right. There are plenty of others with credentials greater than mine who would contend that birth control is not killing children.... "

I didn't say birth control isn't killing children...just the opposite.
Although I did say in one post that condoms don't kill children.

"So, wife of Scot, what's your background and why are YOU so sure of your position?"

College educated...in areas that don't pertain to this topic.
I'm not a dummy if that is what you are wondering.

Again...if I knew what you had you so worked up I might be able to discuss this better with you.


174 posted on 02/18/2007 10:50:42 AM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 165 | View Replies]

To: Captain Gates

"So I think I addressed my rant above to you in error. .Please forgive any condescension! I'm doing all of this on my small palm pilot screen from bed in the wee hours(have a portable little keyboard that I'm using now), and it makes it tough sometimes to look at who's who! "

hee hee!
And I already responded without catching this post first...oops!

oh well...no harm done :)


175 posted on 02/18/2007 10:54:19 AM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 166 | View Replies]

To: Captain Gates

"Children are a beautiful thing!!!!!!!"

Agreed.
I just gave birth to my seventh.

"Do you have some serious medical reasoning?"

medical issues? yes, although I would not describe them as life threatening.
Issues I am running up against now are more in the emotional/mental health area.
The short story is that I am overwhelmed and to continue on the path I've been on would be unwise (that path being NFP)

" WORST case scenario your husband can undergo the simple vasectomy(I say at WORST....) "

he won't do it.

"Why don't you relinquish complete control of the womb over to the Lord who is more than capable even though you may not be...??"

hmmmm....I've been told this before and really - that is what I've been doing for at least 8 yrs. now (since my husband converted).
I'm not sure what the statement means exactly.
If it means to just put it all out of my mind and leave it all up to nature -well then I'm going to have one baby a year until I reach menopause (trust me on this one)

There's that little common sense voice in the back of my mind telling me this wouldn't be smart.


176 posted on 02/18/2007 11:02:42 AM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 169 | View Replies]

To: Captain Gates

"THIS IS SO HEAVY ON MY HEART. I daily struggle with this and try to counsel patients as to the effects of these drugs as much as I can.

I provide my own auxiliary stickers that say 'Warning: May cause spontaneous abortion," and Caution: Causes flushing of fertilized egg"

Please pray that God may increase my boldness.... but increase the love with which I speak even more. Help me to speak this truth in love to the many patients that I come into contact with every day."


It must be very hard to deal with this every day on the job.
It seems like the field of pharmacy is very hostile to those who hold christian beliefs and for those who consider human life as sacred.


177 posted on 02/18/2007 11:06:30 AM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 170 | View Replies]

To: cammie

"All I can do is shrug; I don't know."

if you don't know then why not err on the side of caution?
Every living human being carries their own unique DNA code.
The very first moment this DNA code comes into existence and the new living organism begins to grow is at fertilization.
Common sense tells us this is the beginning of human life.

"But if life begins at fertilization, then every month, 80% of new human lives get flushed down the toilet because they failed to implant."

first of all...where are you getting this number from?

second of all...even if true (which I find hard to believe), there is a difference between intentional destruction of life vs. unintentional.
Some may fail to implant for various reasons which we are not aware of.
Some implant but are only growing a placenta with no baby inside.
We don't know all the causes, but should be careful we are not playing God with human life by intentionally destroying human beings in the very first stages of their existence.

" I guess I just don't see God being a very big fan of that kind of pointless waste of souls He's created "

We cannot know the mind of God, nor can we assume these souls are "wasted".
What seems pointless to us may only be our ignorance at work.


178 posted on 02/18/2007 11:13:50 AM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 171 | View Replies]

To: cammie

now I see you provided a source and I missed that before posting.
Not sure how to access it though.

I think my main question is how are they coming up with this number?
How do they know how many zygotes they are dealing with and how do they know they are being flushed away?


179 posted on 02/18/2007 11:16:26 AM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 171 | View Replies]

To: mockingbyrd

"What do you know about NFP?"

enough to know that I'm finished with it.
Finito.
Caput.

" It is highly effective"

Not for me it isn't.

"I am very pleased with experience."

I'm happy for you...it certainly makes life easier to find a method that works for you and won't send you into the fiery pits of hell.


180 posted on 02/18/2007 11:18:43 AM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 172 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

I do know that there are women who have better luck with differing forms of NFP.

I originally started with the sympto-thermal, now I just use the creighton method. Sympto-thermal isn't as widely used, but I found it to be the most reliable.


181 posted on 02/18/2007 11:21:52 AM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 180 | View Replies]

To: mockingbyrd

I tried it all.
Keeping track of temp was fairly accurate showing day of ovulation - but didn't make up for the fact that (despite what they keep saying!) sperm really must not die out by the 5th day.

I have a medical condition that has hindered the ability to properly read the sympto-signs.

So basically I'm left with celibacy.


182 posted on 02/18/2007 11:27:34 AM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 181 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

You are in my prayers.

God knows your efforts and your struggles. I pray that you find peace and comfort in Him.

I am really, really sorry. You have a great cross indeed.


183 posted on 02/18/2007 11:45:54 AM PST by mockingbyrd (peace begins in the womb)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 182 | View Replies]

To: mockingbyrd

thank you for the kind words.
There are many who have it much worse than me.
I have alot to be thankful for - obviously this issue drives me batty though :)


184 posted on 02/18/2007 1:21:27 PM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 183 | View Replies]

To: Captain Gates
Let me preface my response with the fact that I am not Catholic, but I am in search of a spiritual home for my growing family. I no longer find it in the baptist roots that I grew up in, and I see much wisdom in the orthodox stances of the RCC.

Maybe this will help, or perhaps...

185 posted on 02/18/2007 1:26:17 PM PST by TradicalRC ("...this present Constitution, which will be valid henceforth, now, and forever..."-Pope St. Pius V)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 168 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

LOL

I deserved it with my rash post, etc.

;)


186 posted on 02/18/2007 1:44:01 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 175 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

Wow, 7 children.... what a blessing! We tried for 8 years before our first, and then we now have a 7,5,3 and 2 year old with one due in early June. We are so blessed. We hope for as many as the Lord will bless us with. I think that our time fellowshipping with conservative mennonites and their 12-14 plus children per family really challenged our views on acceptable/normal family sizes. It's all relative.

I will pray that Our Lord will give you peace and direction in the way that you should go. I also pray that He will bless you with strength of mind and of body.


187 posted on 02/18/2007 1:54:21 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 176 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

------"It seems like the field of pharmacy is very hostile to those who hold christian beliefs and for those who consider human life as sacred."-------

I've had the Lord's protection in the few years that I have practiced. Regarding the morning after pill(for anyone), and the dispensing of birth control to minors, I have had to go head to head with county directors, physicians, employers, and most recently with the whole European Regional Medical Command over Army Medicine. I have had the opportunity to discuss my convictions with 3 star general and army surgeon general kevin kiley as well as several full bird colonels over europe. I had to actually repeatedly say no to my boss, commanding officers and ultimately to the full bird over europe... my ultimate boss. I will not even allow it to enter my pharmacy and I've worried about my job more than once.... still, the Lord has been very protective of me.

Regarding other contraceptives, while they are abortifacient in action, it is not the intent of the patient to use it this way. It is also used for acne, to regulate menses temporarily, etc. These are some considerations that I use to ease my conscience in allowing it, though there are many pharmacists who don't dispense birth control at all. I see it as an opportunity to educate women who are prescribed these types of medicine. They aren't told how it works by anyone.

Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate your prayers. It is something that is very heavy on my heart.


188 posted on 02/18/2007 2:10:41 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 177 | View Replies]

To: Captain Gates

" I also pray that He will bless you with strength of mind and of body."


Thank you -it's "the mind" that gets to me the most.
I am by nature someone who likes a peaceful and orderly environment.
The noise and chaos that comes with having many children seems to be turning me into a nasty person.

congratulations on the new little one!


189 posted on 02/18/2007 2:11:25 PM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 187 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

------"How do they know how many zygotes they are dealing with and how do they know they are being flushed away?"-------

Not sure about THIS study. I know that various methods of IVF(In Vitro Fertilization) boast different pregnancy rates in those who've experienced repeated implantation failures. The numbers here are from a population of people who have struggled with having children and are more likely to have more implantation failures. Certain methods boast implantation rates of somewhere in the range of 15 - 20 percent with this population of people.

Within normal populations, it is very invasive to try and capture all material exiting the vagina for a month's period of time, and examine it under microscopes to determine whether a zygote was flushed. Implantation rates are really hard to come by 'in the wild'. Still, they really vary between people.... as you were saying scotswife, you are one fertile woman. I would imagine your implantation rate is MUCH higher than 20 percent.

Here we have a scenario where it makes sense to think of the Lord opening and closing the womb. Some people are going to have varying levels of fertility.

Normal implantation rates should be somewhere in the 75 percent range or higher. There are many other factors that lead to ultimate pregnancy, so the implantation is not the only stopping point.

If you want to search the primary literature, try medline(pubmed). They have many articles for your perusal. Of course, all the research you are going to see is regarding implantation rates of fertilized eggs that are being artificially introduced to the mother. Not really what you're looking for, but its the best that you're going to get. Remember that these people are infertile in the first place, and will have a much higher probability of having lower implantation rates.


190 posted on 02/18/2007 2:34:53 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 179 | View Replies]

To: TradicalRC

Thank you.


191 posted on 02/18/2007 2:36:01 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 185 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

Do you have fellowship with other large families? I think that this is key..... since you are the 'freak' large family and everyone thinks a school field trip is occurring every time you walk your children somewhere......

I feel you.... not that we're any where near seven.... but we fellowship with families that have 9 children on up to 14 and going anywhere with them really turns eyes. Having fellowship with large families really helps add sanity to the whole situation. May I ask the ages of your children? Older ones in other families really seem to help with all of the chaos as well. A large home to host the invasion really helps as well!


192 posted on 02/18/2007 2:55:39 PM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 189 | View Replies]

To: Captain Gates

"If you want to search the primary literature, try medline(pubmed). They have many articles for your perusal. Of course, all the research you are going to see is regarding implantation rates of fertilized eggs that are being artificially introduced to the mother. Not really what you're looking for, but its the best that you're going to get. Remember that these people are infertile in the first place, and will have a much higher probability of having lower implantation rates."

Thank you, yes - this 80% figure just seems too high, but it makes sense that studies would be done with the couples struggling with fertility.

So really in the end...we don't know what the rate really is - and this 80% number gets bandied about to justify using hormonal contraception/abortificants.


193 posted on 02/18/2007 4:26:13 PM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 190 | View Replies]

To: Captain Gates

"Do you have fellowship with other large families?"

fellowship?
What's that? hee hee!

On the rare occasion we do get out there are some couples who already have large families or couples who are working on it.

Yes - there are many who look at us as freaks and take the time to kindly point out to us how we should go about taking care of the "problem".
The ages are 17, 14, a child who would have been 12 (died at the age of 4), 7,5,4, and 3 mos.
The older ones do help, and the house is large enough (although still incredibly messy).

I really handled it fine up until the second to last pregnancy...and then this last pregnancy has sent me over the edge.
Alot of people think this should just come naturally - but it doesn't to me.
It seems like everyone is getting only a little slice of the attention they need.
I wish I could be doing more for each of them - but just taking care of the daily essentials seems to take up the entire day.
It all is making me mean and cranky.


194 posted on 02/18/2007 4:35:02 PM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 192 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

Can't answer; I'm not a scientist. But as for your earlier post, I said that I do err on the side of caution ("I'm not going to go out and get shot up with Depo-Provera" which is a birth control injection). I do, however, believe that birth control should be and should remain legal, and I think conflating it with abortion does the pro-life movement a huge disservice.


195 posted on 02/18/2007 7:15:12 PM PST by cammie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 179 | View Replies]

To: cammie

"I do, however, believe that birth control should be and should remain legal, and I think conflating it with abortion does the pro-life movement a huge disservice."

you don't have to be a scientist to know the difference between birth control and abortion.

"birth control" : NFP, condoms, vasectomy, tubal ligation, spermicide, sponge.....

abortificants: hormonal pills, shots, and patches, IUDS

the pro-life movement is exactly that - pro-life.
When there are practices that result in the death of human beings it is necessarily a "pro-life" issue.


196 posted on 02/19/2007 4:45:52 AM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 195 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

----"and this 80% number gets bandied about to justify using hormonal contraception/abortificants."-----

People are very intelligent and they can use all sorts of logical game playing, including yours truly, to justify sinful behavior. This is our nature. While biblical truth(and scientific truth to a much lesser extent) can be used to demolish these arguments, the word tells us that the people wielding these arguments really aren't fooling themselves..... they KNOW that they are committing sin. As to degrees of sin.... I know that each and every sin is capable of sending a soul to everlasting punishment..... but human killing...... I imagine the consequences are grave.


197 posted on 02/19/2007 6:13:30 AM PST by Captain Gates ('kill your TV')
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 193 | View Replies]

To: Captain Gates

That's why I like reading the website maintained by the atheist pro-lifers...(godlessprolifers.com - I think is what it is)

You don't need to bring in religion or discussion of sin to make a good argument.


198 posted on 02/19/2007 10:22:42 AM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 197 | View Replies]

To: Scotswife

Well, I guess I'm not pro-life enough for Free Republic. Conflating IUDs and hormonal pills with the movement to ban abortion will assure one thing: failure of the movement.


199 posted on 02/20/2007 8:18:49 PM PST by cammie
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 196 | View Replies]

To: cammie

"Well, I guess I'm not pro-life enough for Free Republic. Conflating IUDs and hormonal pills with the movement to ban abortion will assure one thing: failure of the movement"

Quit pouting.
This is a discussion forum and pro-lifers have found your opinion less than persuasive.

The pro-life movement is dedicated to educating people about these issues. Many women do not understand the abortificant properties of the pill and the IUD.
Giving people more information - raising awareness is always a good thing.
When people have better access to the truth of the matter they can make better decisions.


200 posted on 02/21/2007 10:20:32 AM PST by Scotswife
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 199 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100101-150151-200201-210 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson