Posted on 05/19/2007 3:25:34 AM PDT by Gamecock
You make it sound as if you have no legitimate response to my point.
I’m a Weight Watchers member. Our “best” parking space is as far from the door as possible :-).
I hesitate to comment on Mr. Osteen’s statements discussed by hearsay from someone for whom English is clearly not his first language. However, if this is even close to accurate, then I’m stuned.
I think a lot of cradle Catholics, although not all, do take their religion for granted unfortunately. The sacraments (especially Reconciliation and the Eucharist) and prayer do bring us objectively closer to Christ, but not all have the proper disposition to take advantage of that. In some respects, the Catholic converts from Protestantism do bring the best of both worlds, with a solid grounding in Scripture and a strong evangelizing temperament that can complement rather than compete with the sacraments, formal prayers and magisterial teaching authority of the successors of the apostles.
Very good.
As a convert, I certainly agree with you.
I was thinking more Lyle Lovett charming. ;)
While I don't strictly agree that you have to make that choice, I understand (I think) the feeling. And I think part of it comes from the real damage that schism has done. I think schism is a dreadful thing. I used to joke when I was still Episcopalian and a friend was RC, "When we left, we took beauty with us." And while that's not rigorously accurate, I do think every time a group splits from the Church, something is lost. We have lost some great things in the East West Split, and things which should be simple and clear are complicated and obscure because we aren't working together.
I am allowed to mention P-Marlowe without pinging him, so I will say that he is right that representative republics with strong senses of individual rights have NOT grown in Catholic cultures, and at some point it would be good to see if there is a connection and what that connection might be.
But the other side to this issue is to recall that while being in the Church is an unmerited gift, it's also true that we imports may have some gifts for the church. I know that within about 6 months of my conversion my pastor had me overseeing an adult bible class, and that in our small country parish there was no regular praying of the Rosary until I started a group after the 9-11.
In other words, while in the most important sense nothing necessary is missing, still maybe one of the things that is missing, if one speaks "after the flesh", is you.
Well, I was raised Catholic, and I never ever doubted the personal sacrifice that Jesus made for myself and for every one else in the universe for the forgiveness of my sins.
I can actually remember when I fully comprehended the magnitude if it. In my childish mind of 7 and 1/2 years, I was walking on the sidewalk just before my First Communion and I saw a bunch of ants. I remember thinking in wonder what it would be like if I as a human would deem it necessary to allow myself to be sacrificed to save these tiny creatures. Could I love them enough? The metaphor was in my mind as I had just come from catechism and had been taught about the crucifixion, the resurrection, and God’s mercy and forgiveness. I then wondered about how the Almighty God could love us so much that he would send his Son to die for us, such tiny creatures.
Now this may seem simplistic to you, but I was a small child. I have always wondered how people can be brought up Catholic and not have a true clue about our wonderful, saving God. Maybe I was just more fortunate. I did have truly great parents, a good pastor, plus I was educated prior to Vatican II (which I suspect may be the most important fact here).
It's not a good way to think.
Because the church has let the world in.
I initially was against Joel...But I now enjoy a dose of Joel’s message every now and then...
I guess what turned me was when I heard him say that God didn’t call him to teach the deep things of the bible...And he doesn’t...Maybe I just appreciated the honesty...
If Joel O. has a real church, likely he has teachers and classes available as well...
ergh.
P-Marlowe:”This is why Protestant countries have consistently fostered individual liberty and Catholic Countries have consistently fostered socialism and collectivism.
America could never have been possible unless the individual liberty and responsibility emphasized in Protestantism had found its way to our shores.”
This is a very intriguing idea. Empirically, it does seem to make a lot of sense.
Though it makes me wonder if at times we have not gone a bit too far with “American individualism”. I see many “Christians” in the USA that are very isolated from the community of the church and neglect the need we all have for corporate worship and fellowship. There is a cultural trend for Christians (and non-Christian Americans alike) to isolate themselves.
Php 1:3 I thank my God in all my remembrance of you,
Php 1:4 always in every prayer of mine for you all making my prayer with joy,
Php 1:5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now.
As Paul states above, we are in a partnership with the Gospel and we are all joined together in Christ Jesus. We are brothers and sisters joined in Christ’s blood - not just good friends and buddies who get together on Sunday mornings for a “club meeting”.
It is intruiging, as are the best of fallacies.
"People may look up to different gods, but the goal is the same. We want to follow the one we worship. "
This is the discernible difference between Christianity and other religions. The object of faith is God through His method He has provided us to worship Him. If we worship because of our desire, instead of placing His Will as our object of faith, then we simply have substituted our personal volition for His. This is also another reason why other belief systems fall short of providing a relationship to God on His terms.
"But shouldn't religion be practiced instead of being heard?"
Religion per se isn't evil, but many evils are promoted by religion. The mechanisms of sorshipping God by His method is a type of religion, therefore religion in and of itself is not evil. Religion performed outside of His will and plan is counterfeit to Him and therefore evil, no matter how much morality or human acceptance arises.
" And should religion be an extravagance or an expectation of good things? "
There is nothing wrong with extravagence coincident with our remaining in fellowship with Him. Only when we step out of fellowship with Him, by placing extravagance before Him does evil arise.
"From what I know, it is only an order, a sacred and ultimate order which relates man and his existence."
I don't understand the meaning of the author or his intent. Our relationship with existence doesn't change once God creates it, until He decides it is to change. Smells like some confused existential confusion is emanating from the author's thinking.
"There shouldn't be a definition of your faith.
All faith is provided by God. This includes faith as in placing a trustworthiness in the object of faith, also in our saving faith, and as well as in Bible doctrine or an ordered set of tennets which express ones beliefs. Faith is also a system of perception for the believer in fellowship with God through faith in Christ.
"We all thread in this earth swathe with the unknown and uncertainties. "
Perhaps the author meant to write 'tread' vs 'thread' and swathed, vs swathe. Some focus more upon faith in Him, than swimming in a sea of confusion and uncertainty.
"What we believe should define our own actions. Who our devotion is for should be an extension of what we do to our brethren. "
In one sense, our beliefs do define our actions via our scarred souls. This highlights an important reason for studying Bible Doctrine daily, ...so that our thinking processes are turned back over to God the Holy Spirit, for His sactification in our mind and heart (soul) as well as our human spirit. While we remain in fellowship with Him and are further sanctified, we are better equipped to respond to any situation or problem in life by His methods through faith in Christ.
"And why we commit to the God we know should reflect our dedication to live a life that is fruitful."
In many situations of testing and temptation, the fruit might not be immediately perceivable to those in the immediate vicinity or time. Good works performed through faith in Him, are not overlooked by Him and may have been planned in eternity past.
Well, being crucified is a bit expreme. Most Christians won’t attend a church where the pews lack cushions and the music is sub par.
Oh yeah, I get that. Still it’s worth looking into.
I don’t find Osteen to be charming. His constant smile annoys me.
Does he ever get fired up? I like my pastor to get fired up now and again. Not hellfire and brimstone, mind you, I got enough of that in my youth.
I’d just like a little passion in the message. He doesn’t seem to have any, unless I’ve missed it.
Lakewood, Tx, is more or less between Orange and Beaumont. Osteen's church is in Houston.
With more than 30,000 members across the US
I think he missed on that one as well.
I just feel there is something peculiar in his theologies.
I'll be charitable and just say that's a pretty large understatement.
There shouldn't be a definition of your faith.
And the guy needs to study some systematic theology.
“Here is my measuring stick: Did Jesus have to die to make the message I am hearing from any given pulpit true?
If the answer is no, I am hearing advice, or even worse, false teaching, rather than good news.”
(I have nothing to add to this, I just wanted it to be posted again on this thread. Thank you for this thought.)
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.