Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
In a way of looking at it, many Protestant churches take a piece of Catholicism and expand it into a whole.
You should look at all the Councils, not just one.
I believe that this has been touched on before: Protestants want to say that every verse that supports their particular belief is of equal value and simply disregard the rest. Duelling verses, I call it.
If you don’t believe that every word from the mouth of the Lord is more important than any word from the mouth or pen of a man, then what kind of Christian do you profess to be?
Context, context, context.
John 7:
1 After this, Jesus moved about within Galilee; but he did not wish to travel in Judea, because the Jews were trying to kill him.
2
But the Jewish feast of Tabernacles was near.
3
So his brothers 2 said to him, “Leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples also may see the works you are doing.
4
No one works in secret if he wants to be known publicly. If you do these things, manifest yourself to the world.”
5
For his brothers did not believe in him.
6
3 So Jesus said to them, “My time is not yet here, but the time is always right for you.
7
The world cannot hate you, but it hates me, because I testify to it that its works are evil.
8
You go up to the feast. I am not going up 4 to this feast, because my time has not yet been fulfilled.”
9
After he had said this, he stayed on in Galilee.
10
But when his brothers had gone up to the feast, he himself also went up, not openly but (as it were) in secret.
11
The Jews were looking for him at the feast and saying, “Where is he?”
12
And there was considerable murmuring about him in the crowds. Some said, “He is a good man,” (while) others said, “No; on the contrary, he misleads the crowd.”
13
Still, no one spoke openly about him because they were afraid of the Jews.
The footnotes from the NAB:
1 [John 7-8] These chapters contain events about the feast of Tabernacles (Sukkoth, Ingathering: Exodus 23:16; Tents, Booths: Deut 16:13-16), with its symbols of booths (originally built to shelter harvesters), rain (water from Siloam poured on the temple altar), and lights (illumination of the four torches in the Court of the Women). They continue the theme of the replacement of feasts (Passover, John 2:13; 6:4; Hanukkah, John 10:22; Pentecost, John 5:1), here accomplished by Jesus as the Living Water. These chapters comprise seven miscellaneous controversies and dialogues. There is a literary inclusion with Jesus in hiding in John 7:4, 10; 8:59. There are frequent references to attempts on his life: John 7:1, 13, 19, 25, 30, 32, 44; 8:37, 40, 59.
2 [3] Brothers: these relatives (cf John 2:12 and see the note on Mark 6:3) are never portrayed as disciples until after the resurrection (Acts 1:14). Matthew 13:55 and Mark 6:3 give the names of four of them. Jesus has already performed works/signs in Judea; cf John 2:23; 3:2; 4:45; 5:8.
3 [6] Time: the Greek word means “opportune time,” here a synonym for Jesus’ “hour” (see the note on John 2:4), his death and resurrection. In the wordplay, any time is suitable for Jesus’ brothers, because they are not dependent on God’s will.
4 [8] I am not going up: an early attested reading “not yet” seems a correction, since Jesus in the story does go up to the feast. “Go up,” in a play on words, refers not only to going up to Jerusalem but also to exaltation at the cross, resurrection, and ascension; cf John 3:14; 6:62; 20:17.
Context: Jesus is telling the Apostles that he isn’t going to go because the Jews will kill him. He goes anyway, in secret. The Jews are looking for him but don’t see him there BECAUSE the Apostles obviously tell them that He isn’t there.
When He starts teaching in the middle of the feast, there isn’t the chance to kill Him because He is in the middle of the crowd. That line is for the Apostles.
Further, to put it with some previous Scripture that has been mentioned, those who are self indulgent and sin are not going to want to hear His message. The Apostles already knew this and that makes this misdirection work so well.
The boys have an
Whatever the “vagaries within the EO,” this one doesn’t arise:
Which God died and which God killed Him?
Ooopps, I MUST pay more attention whilst proofreading...
I’d be interested in following the line of: God the Father is superior to God the Son; He Created Him, killed Him off, and then reCreated Him.
Seems that the Reformed are a little closer to the LDS folks than they’d like to admit. :)
I’m confused.
Is 6,666 bad?
No, 666 is bad..
:)
Are you saying Jesus is not “The Lamb of God?”
Were Lambs sacrificed at Passover or were they not?
This is sort of a silly argument, though. He truly is the Lamb of God, and nothing anyone can say will change the scripture or change that fact.
So, that clears it up for 7,666, too, doesn’t it?
:>)
We have most certainly have had this discussion before. If you recall, I gave you a number of examples where judgment is to heaven OR hell. While a few passages could be taken to mean "rewards" judgment, such as the parable of the talents, the majority of Jesus's parables speak of an either heaven/hell judgment, such as the Wedding Feast. There will be no "gnashing of teeth" as a reward!
The simple fact remains that this idea really doesn't follow the Scriptures. Men are judged based on how they utilize the graces from God. No, they don't earn anything, because NO ONE can say "look what I done by myself". But it is very clear that we are to obey commandments and we are subsequently judged FOR HEAVEN OR HELL based on our following God's will.
For example:
Strive to enter in at the narrow gate; (ouch, that hurts the "God does everything" idea, doesn't it?) for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in and shall not be able. When once the husband of the house is risen up and shall have shut the door, and ye begin to stand without and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not from where ye are, then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say unto you, I know you not from where ye are; depart from me, all [ye] workers of iniquity. In that place shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth when ye shall see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out. And [others] shall come from the east and [from] the west and from the north and [from] the south and shall sit [at the table] in the kingdom of God. And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last. Luke 13:24-30
I actually remember from before that in expressing it, you had the most optimistic views in this area amongst your like minded brethren. :)
Nyuk, nyuk, I'm just a happy-go-lucky guy!
Regards
We are not judged??? Where does the Bible say that Christians will not be judged after they die? Perhaps the confusion over the meaning of "judge". Often, the Bible uses the concept that judgment is something that God gives to the evil, like God's wrath (rather than God weighing our works, good and bad, and deciding what to do, if I can make a human analogy). We will be subject to scrutiny based on what we do, but we will not receive God's judgment (wrath might be a better word to press forward my meaning) while in Christ.
For although I have nothing on my conscience, yet am I not hereby justified, but he that judges me is the Lord. 1 Cor 4:4
And dost thou think this, O man, that judgest those who do such things and [doest the same], that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Romans 2:3
So speak ye and so do as those that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment without mercy shall be done unto the one that has showed no mercy; and mercy boasts against judgment. James 2:12-13
For we know [who] he [is] that has said, Vengeance [belongs] to me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. [It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:30-31
Clearly, WE WILL be scrutinized based on what we have done. Those found unworthy will be cast out.
I think the James verse gives a good indication of what I mention above. Those in Christ will be granted mercy - they will be judged with mercy, as opposed to those who are evil. We will not have to be perfect, as God will grant mercy - and Christ intercedes for us. But those NOT in Christ, even if they have ONCE received Christ in the past, will not be given mercy. The Bible makes that clear in a number of places.
Regards
That is very kind of you. Likewise.
Well, I'm glad that you admit the world hates our Lord as much as you tried to spin this one. Here are some others:
Joh 15:18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.
I have looked at a lot of the Councils (not all). The older they are, the better they are.
The Holy Spirit—as regards His existence—proceeds (originates) eternally from the Father (St. Gregory Palamas [13th century], Philokalia), and not from the Son. To say that he proceeds from Them is to imply double origin.
The Apostle states:
"the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me." [St. John 15:26]
St. John of Damascus (8th century desert father) states:
Likewise we believe also in one Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life: Who proceedeth from the Father and resteth in the Son...proceeding from the Father and communicated through the Son.
(We believe) in one Father, the beginning, and cause of all: begotten of no one: without cause or generation, alone subsisting: creator of all: but Father of one only by nature, His Only-begotten Son and our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ, and Producer of the most Holy Spirit. [Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, Book I, Chapter VIII]
Well, I thought you believed that Christ died for your sins. Didn't He die for all of them?
Yes we will all stand before the judgment seat but our Judge is our Lord Jesus. Judgment by George Eldon Ladd
Alexander Kalimoros wrote in his 9in)famous "River of Fire" in the 1970's the following observation:
I think you are witnessing that his assessment was right on target.
You are mistaken on two accounts: first, the "current" EOC is the past EOC and the future EOC, some short-term heretics in it notwithstanding.
Second, my God does not deceive.
You noticed that too? :)
I really do believe that if you stuck four Protestants in a room, you guys would come up with 5 different religions
That's on Tuesday. By Friday they will have at least a dozen...
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