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New York Catholics visit mosque, learn about Islam
CNS ^ | August 9, 2007 | Beth Griffin

Posted on 08/13/2007 4:37:16 PM PDT by NYer

WAPPINGERS FALLS, N.Y. (CNS) -- In late July, carloads of curious Catholics caravanned north from their church to a mosque in the next county.

Three dozen Catholics who regularly attend Mass at the Franciscan Friars of the Atonement's Graymoor Spiritual Life Center in Garrison accepted a Muslim visitor's invitation to attend services at Masjid Al-Noor, his mosque in Wappingers Falls.

Entering the two-story white frame building, the visitors placed their shoes alongside their host's on wire racks lining one wall of the foyer.

The women, already modestly covered from chin to ankle, pulled on scarves to cover their hair. The men were directed through double doors to a large simple, rug-covered room on the first floor and the women were invited upstairs to a balcony overlooking the same prayer room.

The walls of the prayer room were sparsely decorated with metal plaques proclaiming God's greatness in Arabic, a large clock and several bookshelves with various editions of the Quran and devotional books. The front of the room had a small, raised carpeted platform for the imam, the religious scholar who led the service.

People greeted one another quietly and lined up, shoulder to shoulder, in rows that stretched across the room. Everyone faced east, the direction of Mecca, Saudi Arabia, Islam's holy city. Folding chairs in the back of the two prayer areas were used by people who had difficulty sitting and kneeling on the floor, or accomplishing the deep bows that punctuated the prayers.

Muslims are required to pray five times a day and men are obliged to attend a communal service on Fridays. Women are not required to interrupt their routines to go to the mosque for Friday prayer. Three-quarters of the more than 200 people who attended one recent Friday service at Masjid Al-Noor were men.

The 45-minute service was conducted in spoken and intoned Arabic, with three portions in English: a short reflection on the reading from the Quran, intercessory prayers and communal announcements.

At one Friday service, Imam Mohammed Asil Khan chose to speak on a Scripture passage, or "sura," that described the "Miracles of Jesus and the Miracles of Mohammed." He later explained that Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet, but not divine.

The Catholic visitors told Catholic News Service they were grateful for the opportunity to attend the services and speak with members of the congregation.

"Our hosts were very welcoming and it was insightful to have casual conversation about being Muslim and learning about the diversity within their own community," said Ruth Ann McAndrews.

She was particularly interested in the discussion of the "challenge of instilling each religion's traditions and faith in the youth through Sunday school and after-school programs."

"The thing that struck me," said Dan Donnelly, "was the commonality that pervades. We have significant doctrinal differences. They don't believe in the Trinity or in the divinity of Jesus, but we have a common father who created us and we should all love one another."

He was also intrigued by the lack of a hierarchy and came to a better understanding of the role of the imam.

"I thought of the imams as the priesthood," he said, "but I learned that they are religious scholars who are chosen by the community to be teachers. If an imam is not available, the people can choose another person to lead the service."

Joyce Evans said, "I left there knowing for certain that our faiths could make us closer to each other. Praying with the Muslims can't take anything away from Catholicism. In fact, it enhances my Catholicism to honor them and work with them."

She continued, "You can read about Islam in a book, but to see the fervor of their devotion really touched me and I came away being a better Catholic."

Most of the worshippers at Masjid Al-Noor are Sunni Muslims, although Shiites are welcome and constitute a small percentage of the congregation, according to Imam Khan. There is no official membership roll, he said, so it is hard to estimate the size of the congregation.

The worship community represents 26 different countries and includes a small number of converts. Imam Khan is a Pakistani who holds master's degrees in Arabic and Islamic studies. He has a full-time association with the mosque.

Atonement Father James J. Gardiner, director of the Graymoor Spiritual Life Center, organized the visits, which came out of a December 2006 event at the center.

"At our Advent vespers, we invited people from different traditions to speak. We had Orthodox, Greek Orthodox, Christian Missionary Alliance and Muslim speakers," he said. "At the time, Umar H. Ahmad was the president of the Mid-Hudson Islamic Association, which worships at Masjid Al-Noor.

"Dr. Ahmad spoke 'In Praise of Mary' and at the end of his talk he invited the participants to visit his mosque, attend services and enjoy fellowship with the imam and other members of the congregation," the priest said. So two visits were scheduled in July.

Imam Khan expressed interest in making a reciprocal visit to Graymoor. "Quran tells us that how you deal with your neighbors is very important," he said.


TOPICS: Catholic; Islam; Ministry/Outreach; Worship
KEYWORDS: apostacy; franciscan; heresy; islam; mosque; ny; sellouts; sheeruttermadness
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To: Aquinasfan
Bishop Sheen believed that the miracle of Fatima would be the bridge that would bring Mohammedans to Christianity, since Mary enjoys an exalted position within Mohammedanism, and Fatima was Mohammed's daughter.

Apparently Bishop Sheen got duped...It's working the other way around...

Catholics are embracing Islam...And not a peep from a Bishop, Cardinal or Pope...

Oh well...Both your religions face the moon god in the east when you worship...

What's interesting is that to most Catholics, we Protestants are an anathema...Even tho we confess Jesus as our Savior...But yet your religion is beginning to cuddle up with muzlims...

And what is the common denominator??? It's not God in the flesh...It's not salvation...It's not the Holy Scripture...

It's Mary, the Queen of Heaven...That's your common denominator...You have a common bond and it's not God...

51 posted on 08/14/2007 9:12:27 AM PDT by Iscool (OK, I'm Back...Now what were your other two wishes???)
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To: Salvation; wagglebee
I have visited a mosque. I have gone with my friends to a Friday service.

It is not bad. It is not terrible. I am still a very strong Catholic. I simply prayed next to Muslims. I did not pray their prayers. I prayed my own Catholic prayers. There is no law. I did not sin. Anyone who asked, knew I was a Catholic.

You would find out that the average Muslim is peaceful and accepting. You would see that most condemn the terrorists and are embarrassed that the terrorists are associated with Islam.

The less we think of people as the enemy, in the non-Christian way that enemy is accepted, the better off we will be. Don't just bring the Gospel to the well. Bring it to the sick. In humility take Christ's love to people, even in mosques, and you will find that the Holy Spirit provides more than you ever could or your fear could.

The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. If we live like Christ calls us to live, Islam will fall apart and all will become Christians. If we live by the sword, we will die by the sword. Even if we are just defending ourselves. St. Peter had to put his sword away upon Christ's bidding. I am not saying lay it all down ... just be open to more peaceful solutions ... we may surprise ourselves and find Christ in those other solutions.
52 posted on 08/14/2007 10:18:25 AM PDT by klossg (GK - God is good!)
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To: Nihil Obstat
do these loons not know the life of Saint Francis?

They confuse Ghandi for St. Francis, just as they confuse Karl Marx for Jesus of Nazareth.

53 posted on 08/14/2007 10:28:48 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler ("A person's a person no matter how small." -Dr. Seuss)
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To: NYer
Imam Khan is a Pakistani who holds master's degrees in Arabic and Islamic studies.

Is that like holding black belts?

54 posted on 08/14/2007 10:35:50 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler ("A person's a person no matter how small." -Dr. Seuss)
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To: Iscool
Catholics are embracing Islam

Other than this article that is right before your eyes, where do you see Catholics embracing Islam. And note that none of those in the article are thinking of becoming Muslim. That is what you read into it with your own fear.

Catholics are not becoming Muslim. Get a grip. This is just your interpretation of today's news item. Yesterday it was Ryan Anderson, a former Lutheran, who was in the news over converting to Islam. Should we all declare that Lutherans are embracing Islam? Come on.

Over the past month everyone has been in Catholics' faces because the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith put out a clarification that the Catholic Church is the one true church (i.e. Bishops, Cardinals and Pope all support the CDF). Now you say "And not a peep from a Bishop, Cardinal or Pope"

I'm just suggesting that you might want to take a more rational approach. or you could continue to pretend that you have found that Mary, the Mother of God, is the stepping stone to Islam. Aye Caramba!
55 posted on 08/14/2007 10:56:51 AM PDT by klossg (GK - God is good!)
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To: blinachka
And thus the religion of islam is BLASPHEMOUS to ALL Christians no matter their denomination.

Well no duh! But, who said going into a Mosque and even praying side by side with Muslims is condoning Islam as the true or even a true religion? Is it guilt by association? Do not let your emotions run away with your logic and understanding.

Christians worth their salt, pun intended, can handle a little prayer besides Muslims without losing their religion. You might worry about the Muslims losing their faith in seeing a Christian praying along with them. They might see that our understanding of the Trinity might be a little more subtle than polytheism. They may see that Christ will bring them to a complete understanding of God.

To bring Muslims to the full truth, we may have to look for similarities in our faiths. Otherwise the Atheists may be right and war is the only thing that religion brings.

Christ calls us to love and to call all people to Him. Some people may want to convert Islam by moving closer to them so they can see the similarities in Christianity. And I'd say it is a worthy cause and worth the grace and the attempt.
56 posted on 08/14/2007 11:06:26 AM PDT by klossg (GK - God is good!)
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To: NYer
This reminds me of what happen early in July when this Muslim organization had its annual conference in Hartford at the convention center, held a few days after Independence Day. They had a special seminar for non-Muslims to learn about Islam. Even the local newspaper the Hartford Courant covered it. They had it on the Saturday of the conference. The following day there was a protest by the convention center because they had a speaker with connections to Hamas.
57 posted on 08/14/2007 1:53:42 PM PDT by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation.)
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To: NYer

God Bless your pastor for the courage to go to that seminar and to be able to persevere in asking those questions to the Muslim speaker. As a person who came from Lebanon, he would have first hand knowledge and experence in knowing the truth about Islam and the Koran. Truly Islam is not on a HERESY but also a CULT.


58 posted on 08/14/2007 2:09:59 PM PDT by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation.)
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To: LilAngel

....Or from 9/11.


59 posted on 08/14/2007 2:11:35 PM PDT by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation.)
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To: wagglebee

...And remember that the devil can appear as an “angel of light”, even an archangel, so this is why Muhammed was fearful.


60 posted on 08/14/2007 2:15:04 PM PDT by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation.)
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To: civis

That is the better title to call them or Moslims.


61 posted on 08/14/2007 2:16:38 PM PDT by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation.)
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To: livius

Or it goes to show how little regards Islam has for women it does not suprise me.


62 posted on 08/14/2007 2:18:19 PM PDT by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation.)
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To: NYer
Islam is a threat to our society and our way of life in this countri if we allow them to gain ground and be seen as 'just like us'. But if these people are any indication...we're doomed. These people are dolts. I pity them. Especially this guy:

"The thing that struck me," said Dan Donnelly, "was the commonality that pervades. We have significant doctrinal differences. They don't believe in the Trinity or in the divinity of Jesus, but we have a common father who created us and we should all love one another."

It's ony the divinity of Christ...no big deal, right?

63 posted on 08/14/2007 3:57:20 PM PDT by pgkdan (Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions - G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Biggirl; livius; Pyro7480; Frank Sheed
God Bless your pastor for the courage to go to that seminar and to be able to persevere in asking those questions to the Muslim speaker.

This priest is unappreciated by the Lebanese parishioners who make unrealistic demands on him. Two years ago, the grandson of a parishioner lay practically lifeless in Boston Children's Hospital. The parents had expended no expense in attempting to salvage the life of their first born child. After 15 hours of surgery the top physicians in the country told them that every know procedure in modern science had been used to save his life and it was now time to pull the life support.

They called the pastor. Now, imagine this. He had just returned from a 5 day mandatory conference and retreat. It was the one week each year when we celebrate our patron St. Ann. The Church had more Roman Catholics than Maronites attending this novena. It was his first night back. When the phone call came, he never hesitated. He apologized to those assembled for his absence due to the mandatory conference and asked their understanding for the sad situation with this family's 7 month old child. He got in his car and drove 3 1/2 hours to Boston to counsel and attend to the family in this great time of grief. He then returned to NY to make arrangements for the funeral - not at our small church (the family was quite large) - but with one of the larger RC Churches. He asked his non-salaried volunteer Secretary to have special missalettes made up for the funeral, with the baby's photo on the cover. He not only officiated at the funeral Mass but also asked our organist to provide special musical arrangements. To my dieing day, I will never forget this funeral! Following the distribution of Communion when there is that time for reflection, Doug (the organist), played Brahm's lullaby. To see that tiny white coffin in the aisle and the baby's enlarged photo on a stand in the sancturary, with physicians and medical professionals from both Albany Medical and Boston's Children's Hospital in attendance, left me in total awe of this priest!

Yet today, two years later, the same family demands more Arabic in the liturgy, a choir (we are only 35 families, most of which are aged), and other perks, has left me totally bewildered. When our Lord was crucified on Golgotha, the only disciple present was St. John. The others had all fled. This is the situation in our small parish. Here is an extraordinary priest who speaks 8 languages fluently and has worked industriously to build up this parish, yet some of the parishioners simply take him for granted. I spend countless hours praying for him; especially that he will not cave to these ungrateful people. I trust in my heart that our Lord sent me to this parish to assist him with his plans to grow it and render the parish akin to any of its RC cousins.

Please remember Fr. Elie in your prayers!

64 posted on 08/14/2007 4:56:03 PM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer
Truly NYer, your pastor is not only a REAL man of God but also dedicated to the Maronite rite and to his parish. Yes, I will keep Father Elie in my prayers.

But also from what I have read in this post it suprises me that the Lebanese parishoners REALLY make so many unrealistic demands on him. When I had read this post I thought, if it is tough just being a priest of a Latin rite parish, then it must not be so easy for a priest of a Maronite, Melkite, or any of the Eastern rites. IMHO, the demand for more Arabic is unrealistic. This is America and the liturgy can be celibrated in English. I think if my memory is correct, there is a part or parts that are done in Aramaic, or the lanugage that Jesus spoke. Plus I have seen pictures of the Maronite rite worship and it would look like it was the Latin rite with the alter and the priest facing the people.

In the end your pastor has to lay his foot down and say, kindly but firmly, no, so that he does not end up burning out. It is great that he can be a priest in both the Maronite as well as Latin rite. Also I never thought this parish community was a small one, I thought there were more parishoners. The family in question should be thankful that at least Father Elie was able to get a larger Latin rite parish to be able to accomadate the funeral liturgy. When help is asked, like it was in my home state, CT, when there was a Ukranian rite parish church building that was distroyed in a propane gas explosion and since rebuilted, they had to used a Latin rite pasrish for their worship while the new church was being built. The family should be thankful for the help that this pastor offered and not make unrealistic demands.

May God also bless you in your efforts to be the best parishoner of your adopted parish.

65 posted on 08/14/2007 5:54:02 PM PDT by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation.)
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To: NYer

That is very sad, and I will pray for him.

I love the Byzantine Rite and the liturgies are stunningly beautiful, but there is often a problem with people from the “homeland” of the liturgy in question when they are in the US. They still regard it as their possession, something that is all about their former country and not about God. Certainly, this is not true of all of them, but it is something that I have seen happen before.

From reading your posts regularly, I know how hard you (and he, of course) have worked to get this parish going. I hope these people come to their senses; he sounds truly wonderful, the kind of priest most parishes would do anything to get, and it is terrible to think that this is the response of some of the people. It is very sad indeed.


66 posted on 08/14/2007 6:27:14 PM PDT by livius
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To: livius

The greatness of the different Eastern rites are the different liturgies. These special parishes are rare gems indeed and that is why it would sadden me when people from the places where those rites originated would place unreal expectations on the pastor or be hostle to those not from the country of origins.


67 posted on 08/14/2007 6:34:59 PM PDT by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation.)
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To: Dominick
How can one find common cause with someone who denies the divinity of Jesus while 21st century martyrs call out with blood?

Good point! At Mass today, Father spoke about the scandals being on the front pages, but the fact that there are martyrs is nowhere to be found. He was tactful though - cited Asia Minor, Asia Proper and Africa.

68 posted on 08/14/2007 6:36:24 PM PDT by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: NYer

Just did a Google search under the main website for the Maronite rite on the east coast and found the parish of St. Ann. It just has an e-mail address and the regular address. It is a small parish.


69 posted on 08/14/2007 6:43:40 PM PDT by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation.)
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To: Aquinasfan
True... but before he said that:

http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/kralis/040907

The Catholic Church throughout Northern Africa was virtually destroyed by Moslem power and at the present time (circa 1950), the Moslems are beginning to rise again.

If Moslemism is a heresy, as Hilaire Belloc believes it to be, it is the only heresy that has never declined, either in numbers, or in the devotion of its followers.

The missionary effort of the Church toward this group has been, at least on the surface, a failure, for the Moslems are so far almost unconvertible. The reason is that for a follower of Mohammed to become a Christian is much like a Christian becoming a Jew. The Moslems believe that they have the final and definitive revelation of God to the world and that Christ was only a prophet announcing Mohammed, the last of God's real prophets.

Today (1950), the hatred of the Moslem countries against the West is becoming hatred against Christianity itself. Although the statesmen have not yet taken it into account, there is still grave danger that the temporal power of Islam may return and, with it, the menace that it may shake off a West which has ceased to be Christian, and affirm itself as a great anti-Christian world Power.

I recall reading something else of his that was less than flattering towards the Muslims. If I can ever find it again, I will ping you to my posting of it. I just have so many of his books...

70 posted on 08/14/2007 6:46:37 PM PDT by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: klossg

>The only thing we have to fear is fear itself. If we live like Christ calls us to live, Islam will fall apart and all will become Christians. If we live by the sword, we will die by the sword. Even if we are just defending ourselves. St. Peter had to put his sword away upon Christ’s bidding. I am not saying lay it all down ... just be open to more peaceful solutions ... we may surprise ourselves and find Christ in those other solutions.

Luke 22:36
And He said to them, “But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one.

Jesus suggested defense, not pacifism. Pacifism leads to slaughter of your loved ones. If you are bringing the gospel, then let your martyrdom be your witness to the faith that is inside you.


71 posted on 08/14/2007 7:52:45 PM PDT by Ottofire (O great God of highest heaven, Glorify Your Name through me)
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To: Ottofire
Jesus suggested defense, not pacifism. Pacifism leads to slaughter of your loved ones. If you are bringing the gospel, then let your martyrdom be your witness to the faith that is inside you.

Exactly. We have to truly learn to trust in Jesus the Son of God. Who else can conquer sin and death?
72 posted on 08/15/2007 5:05:38 AM PDT by klossg (GK - God is good!)
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To: Patriotic1
True... but before he said that:

I can't argue with that. That's my take on Mohammedanism too. But if there is any hope for their conversion, perhaps it lies in the message of Fatima.

73 posted on 08/15/2007 5:45:13 AM PDT by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: Biggirl
It is a small parish.

At one time, it was a very large parish. That was when the community drew immigrants from Lebanon. The parish celebrated its centennial 2 years ago.

74 posted on 08/15/2007 5:53:51 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: Aquinasfan

Now I understand why first Saturday devotions never really went away, they have a new use for now, with the dangers of Islamofacism.


75 posted on 08/15/2007 6:08:11 AM PDT by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation.)
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To: NYer

Also was this the same parish that not too long ago bought a former Methodist church building and not only refurbish it to preserve its history but to make like a Maronite rite parish?

Also that happens when a parish when it has a “history” which starts out, because it is the only one will be large. When new parishes spin off from the original, the original tends to get smaller and more often, older. It happens so often in the Latin rite parishes.


76 posted on 08/15/2007 6:15:59 AM PDT by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation.)
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...

.


77 posted on 08/15/2007 4:59:03 PM PDT by Coleus (Pro Deo et Patria)
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To: NYer

Ping me when you have the headline “NY Muslims visit church, learn about Jesus”


78 posted on 08/15/2007 5:02:15 PM PDT by Alouette (Vicious Babushka)
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To: trisham
Correct. You need to get an absolution from your Bishop first.
79 posted on 08/15/2007 5:04:43 PM PDT by ElkGroveDan (When toilet paper is a luxury, you have achieved communism.)
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To: Coleus

Arrrgghhh!! Christians do NOT belong in a mosque. Let the infidels come to church first and experience the Savior’s forgiveness and healing.


80 posted on 08/15/2007 5:12:59 PM PDT by TenthAmendmentChampion (Global warming is to Revelations as the theory of evolution is to Genesis.)
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To: klossg
Other than this article that is right before your eyes, where do you see Catholics embracing Islam

The Church teaches that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God, for one thing.
81 posted on 08/15/2007 5:13:49 PM PDT by armydoc
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To: armydoc
The Church teaches that Catholics and Muslims worship the same God, for one thing.

All Christians must teach this, or they do not worship the one true God. He is the God of Abraham as stated in the Bible. Mt 22:32 "I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living." Muslims worship the God of Abraham. The Church did not make this up in order to "get closer to" Islam.

This is the same God that revealed Himself to Moses. Do we not worship I AM? Mk 14:62 "And Jesus said, 'I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.'"

How do you not see Him as the same God? Please explain. - We all know, including the Church, that Muslims reject Jesus' divinity - but that doesn't take away the fact that all three major religions, including Islam, worship the God revealed as I AM.
82 posted on 08/15/2007 5:33:38 PM PDT by klossg (GK - God is good!)
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To: NYer

Why have we (in general, not FreeRepublic) become such morons?


83 posted on 08/15/2007 6:12:47 PM PDT by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (Will I be suspended again for this remark?)
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To: klossg
How do you not see Him as the same God? Please explain. - We all know, including the Church, that Muslims reject Jesus' divinity - but that doesn't take away the fact that all three major religions, including Islam, worship the God revealed as I AM.

A major point of the Gospel of John is that you cannot worship the Father without worshipping the Son:

John 5:22-23 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.


84 posted on 08/15/2007 6:29:03 PM PDT by armydoc
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To: LilAngel

“Quran tells us that how you deal with your neighbors is very important,”

Yep, it’s the “kill the unbeliever” passage that should be especially important to us all.


85 posted on 08/15/2007 7:47:28 PM PDT by milford421 (U.N. OUT OF U.S.)
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To: armydoc; klossg
A major point of the Gospel of John is that you cannot worship the Father without worshipping the Son:

John 5:22-23 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

***

There is also no salvation outside of Jesus Christ and His name must be called on only by each individual for there is no other name that may be called upon to be saved - there is only one mediator between man and God, that being Jesus Christ - and the name of Jesus Christ must be confessed as Lord, God, Savior for salvation.

No man comes to the Father but through JESUS CHRIST.
They don’t get there any other way, certainly not by calling on allah do they come before the Father.
There is only one way to the Father, One Way to be saved, One Way to escape eternal separation for God, One Way to avoid eternal damnation and hell and that is only through Jesus Christ and His Name Only.

86 posted on 08/15/2007 8:03:00 PM PDT by Esther Ruth
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To: NYer

Dear Fellow Catholics,
Here’s what you need to know about Muslims;

For 400 years BEFORE the Crusades, Muslims killed Catholics!


87 posted on 08/15/2007 8:09:50 PM PDT by G Larry (Only strict constructionists on the Supreme Court!)
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To: Esther Ruth

2Corinthians 6:14

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers:

==> for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness?

==> and what communion hath light with darkness?

2Cr 6:15

And what concord hath Christ with Belial?

or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2Cr 6:16

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?

for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2Cr 6:17

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord,


88 posted on 08/15/2007 8:11:05 PM PDT by Esther Ruth
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To: Esther Ruth

2John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

2Jo 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

2Jo 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

2Jo 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed:

2Jo 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


89 posted on 08/15/2007 8:13:24 PM PDT by Esther Ruth
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To: NYer

Wow! I am impressed with your Pastor! Many Blessings on him and a long life.


90 posted on 08/16/2007 4:11:01 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: Esther Ruth; armydoc
armydoc: A major point of the Gospel of John is that you cannot worship the Father without worshipping the Son.

I agree that the Gospel fulfills the Old Testament. I am a Catholic. You are preaching to the choir. But I need to clarify that Jesus did not say that we cannot "worship" the Father without Himself. He said people cannot "know" the Father or honor Him properly without the Son. Mt 11:27 "neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."

Jn 5:23" He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him." We should note that honor is not worship. Honor is providing proper respect. (Note: Jesus said this in response to those who wanted to kill him because He talked about forgiving sin. Forgiveness of sin has to do with salvation, not worship or even the value of worship.)

EstherRuth: There is also no salvation outside of Jesus Christ and His name must be called on only by each individual for there is no other name that may be called upon to be saved - there is only one mediator between man and God, that being Jesus Christ - and the name of Jesus Christ must be confessed as Lord, God, Savior for salvation.

I agree that Christ bore all our sins and provides salvation to us and all those in the old testament who awaited the savior. All graces flow from Christ. He is our judge and savior. The Church also professes this. Did the Vatican not just publish the document "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church" that deals with this. Again you are preaching to the choir.

If you must preach, then preach, I nor the Church will disagree with the truth you speak. And, it may help some folks to learn from what we post. I will try to clarify any questionable statements in charity. But, nothing you have written refutes the fact that Muslims worship the same God as we.

We are on the same page! Muslims are in heresy and will remain so unless they convert. But they do worship the same God as we. Do you have any facts that prove they do not worship the same God. (Note: we all agree (including the Church) that Muslims do not worship Him as Christians (same with the Jews)).
91 posted on 08/16/2007 4:58:25 AM PDT by klossg (GK - God is good!)
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To: Alouette
Aye. Very clearly and well put.

God bless and keep you.
92 posted on 08/16/2007 5:22:14 AM PDT by klossg (GK - God is good!)
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To: klossg
But I need to clarify that Jesus did not say that we cannot "worship" the Father without Himself. He said people cannot "know" the Father or honor Him properly without the Son

Help me here- are you saying that Muslims can "worship" the Father without "knowing" or "honoring" him??

But they do worship the same God as we.

Christians worship the Triune God. Muslims consider us polytheists for this. The Trinity cannot be parsed. One cannot "know", "honor", or "worship" the Father without the Son. Jesus said that the Pharisee's father was the devil, because they did not recognize Jesus as the Son. Muslims themselves see the distinction clearly; they certainly don't believe we worsip the same God. IMHO, this is one of the most dangerous aspects of modern Catholicism.
93 posted on 08/16/2007 5:30:37 AM PDT by armydoc
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To: klossg

And what about the verses in post #89 from 2John - what do you think?


94 posted on 08/16/2007 6:28:12 AM PDT by Esther Ruth
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To: Iscool
“What’s interesting is that to most Catholics, we Protestants are an anathema...Even tho we confess Jesus as our Savior...But yet your religion is beginning to cuddle up with muzlims...

And what is the common denominator??? It’s not God in the flesh...It’s not salvation...It’s not the Holy Scripture...

It’s Mary, the Queen of Heaven...That’s your common denominator...You have a common bond and it’s not God...”

Catholics also embrace Mohammad's spiritual wayward daughter, Fatima.
So Catholics and Muslims embrace Fatima ... another distraction AWAY from Christ.

95 posted on 08/16/2007 9:04:28 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: nmh; NYer; Aquinasfan; klossg; pgkdan
Catholics also embrace Mohammad's spiritual wayward daughter, Fatima.

Would you care to elaborate on that? Be specific. Very specific. Stick to facts, please, and cite your sources.

Thank you.

96 posted on 08/16/2007 9:24:58 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: armydoc
Help me here- are you saying that Muslims can "worship" the Father without "knowing" or "honoring" him??

In a way, yes. But, I should not have used "Father" for He is a person. I should have used "God", as in th one God. That, clarified to be God and not the Father alone, is the same thing the Catholic Church says. It is "worship" and it is to God ... but they eliminate Jesus and therefore the Holy Spirit. That is heresy! This leaves Muslims out of the loop.

But, He is still the same God. God does not change! It is the Muslims' warped approach to God that leaves them in the lurch. They missed/refuse to accept the Word.

Christians worship the Triune God

Again I agree. So does the Catholic Church.

Muslims consider us polytheists for this.

Yep. They do. And I have personally talked to them and that is their contention and what they are taught.

One cannot "know", "honor", or "worship" the Father without the Son.

I agree with this too. And this is not contradicting myself. Words are important. They do not know, honor or worship the Father, the person! Instead they are stuck with the same conception of God as the Jews have (pre Jesus Christ). But, they do know the same God as us, as we know the same God as the Jews. And they do worship God, the one and only God. He is the God revealed in the Old Testament to Adam, Abraham, David, ... And He is the God that the Muslims worship.

Muslims themselves see the distinction clearly; they certainly don't believe we worsip the same God.

If you want to take your point of view from heretics, go right ahead. No one can stop you. Christians on the other hand were there when Islam formed. So were the Jews. We know they broke into their own religion by stealing parts of ours. Mohammed took our religion and the Jew's religion, including our God and twisted them to fit his goals.

Again we are in agreement as to the fact that Islam is a heresy. But, as can be seen their religion is based on the same God we worship. They also worship God - improperly.
97 posted on 08/16/2007 9:29:26 AM PDT by klossg (GK - God is good!)
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To: ArrogantBustard
What spiritually wayward Fatima?

What’s there to say about her crazy antics? They speak for themselves. The daughter of Mohammad is not someone I’d pray too - so go ahead pray to her - see her in visions and listen to her garbled prophecies ... it’s no different than believing in the Muslim allah and that allah is NOT Christ.

It's not up to me to educate you about Fatima - just another fraud and DETRACTS AWAY FROM CHRIST. You know ... your self appointed moniker ArrogantBustard" fits you well. Good choice!

98 posted on 08/16/2007 9:31:56 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: nmh; NYer; Aquinasfan; klossg; pgkdan
Nice dodge, nmh, but it didn't work.

Your words: "Catholics also embrace Mohammad's spiritual wayward daughter, Fatima."

That is an accusation against Catholics, which I demand in the Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ that you either substantiate or retract.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.

99 posted on 08/16/2007 9:36:54 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard; Iscool

Nice dodge, nmh, but it didn’t work.
Your words: “Catholics also embrace Mohammad’s spiritual wayward daughter, Fatima.”

That is an accusation against Catholics, which I demand in the Name of Our Lord Jesus Christ that you either substantiate or retract.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.


What ever you do ... don’t involve Christ’s name.

Not a “dodge” Fatima, the daughter of Mohammand is a false “prohetess”. What more is there to say?

BTW, I find your pious idignation to be hilarious.

Believe pigs fly! It is a choice. Believe in what ever you wish but don’t connect Christ with this nonsense.

Iscool: “What’s interesting is that to most Catholics, we Protestants are an anathema...Even tho we confess Jesus as our Savior...But yet your religion is beginning to cuddle up with muzlims...
And what is the common denominator??? It’s not God in the flesh...It’s not salvation...It’s not the Holy Scripture...

It’s Mary, the Queen of Heaven...That’s your common denominator...You have a common bond and it’s not God...”

Yes, Iscool and then to make matter more hilarious they get all uptight when simple truth is spoken about one of many they pray to - Fatima, Mary, Queen of Heaven and many other dead people. So sad ... .

Catholics also embrace Mohammad’s spiritual wayward daughter, Fatima.

So Catholics and Muslims embrace Fatima ... another distraction AWAY from Christ.

Again “ArrogantBustard” I find your moniker to fit you well.


100 posted on 08/16/2007 9:52:47 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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