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My Story
Catholic Converts ^ | January 26, 2007 | Chris

Posted on 04/22/2008 2:00:13 PM PDT by annalex

My story: Part 1

I have decided to tell my conversion story. I plan to tell it in two (*) parts. Check back soon for the rest of the story.

When I was a young child my mother was a member of the Church of Christ (not to be confused with the United Church of Christ). For several years I went to church with her every Sunday. At this time my father did not attend church. As I got older I decided that I wanted to stay home with my dad on Sunday mornings. This became the practice for a few years. During this time I started to think about God and my relationship with him. Also during this time something happened at my mom’s church that caused her to leave. To this day I still don’t know exactly what happened. Mom started going to a Southern Baptists church where my dad’s mother and his sister and sister-in-laws were members. At some point I started going to church with my mom and sister again. For a while we visited another Church of Christ but ended up staying at the Southern Baptist one. When I was about fourteen years old I “walked the aisle” and was “saved.” However, the pastor was not comfortable “baptizing me into the Southern Baptist church” given my mom’s situation of not yet being settled on a church. About a year later I was baptized and in the few years that followed my mom, sister, and dad (along with my grandfather and three uncles) were all baptized and joined the Southern Baptist church. The Southern Baptists church’s insistence that my mom be “re-baptized” to show her agreement with its teachings was a major reason that she took several years to join.

After graduating high school I went off to college. I went to University Baptist Church, a Southern Baptist affiliated church, a few times but didn’t go to church regularly while at school. My dorm roommate was Catholic. This was something totally foreign to me. I was a senior in high school before I knew anyone Catholic. Well actually, I had known this person since kindergarten. I just didn’t know she was Catholic. That was also when I found out that my hometown (population 1,200) had a Catholic Church right across the street from the high school. It is a small mission parish and nothing outside the building except a very small sign suggest that it is a Catholic Church. Anyway, my roommate and I had a few discussions about Christianity and he tried to give me a book to read that would help explain some of the teachings of the Catholic Church. I didn’t read it. At the time I was a music education major and having trouble in my ear training classes. To help with this I joined the University Choir. I ended up spending two or three spring semesters singing with the choir. During that time we sang the Gloria from one of Mozart’s Mass settings and performed Faure’s Requiem in its entirety. Looking back now I can see that this was an important step in my introduction to the Catholic Church. I understood music and my interest in the Church was in some way stimulated by its music.

During my junior year of college I started getting into religious discussions with another Catholic friend. We often argued about differences in Catholic and Southern Baptists teachings. At this time I was already starting to have doubts about some Southern Baptists doctrines. My friend had been to Baptists churches with other friends growing up. This gave him some advantage in attacking my arguments, since I had no idea what I was talking about when it came to the Catholic Faith. One day he suggested that attend Mass with him to see for myself. Finally, I agreed and attended a Sunday morning Mass at St. Joseph’s . . .

My story: Part 2

I got to Mass at St. Joseph’s that Sunday morning not having a clue what I was doing. My friend had given me a basic run down of what to expect. One thing that I remember from that Mass is that the priest was rather elderly and I couldn’t understand much of what he was saying, turns out that pastor of the parish was away that Sunday. I was struck by the “ritualistic” nature of the Mass. To be honest it was a bit unsettling. However, something stuck with me about that day. I didn’t attend another Mass for quite some time. But, I kept thinking about it. A few months went by and I went again. Another few months went by and I went again. During this time some things about the Southern Baptists church (well my particular church back home) had started to bother me. There had been a lot of fighting in the congregation that ended in the pastor and several members left and for some time formed their won church in someone’s living room. I didn’t think about it at the time but later would come to realize that this was a real life example of why the protestant tradition was losing its appeal with me. After all, you can’t have protestant without protest. However, at this time I wasn’t working with a Catholic vs. protestant attitude. My thought was it doesn’t matter what the name on the sign out front is just as long as I’m trying to serve God.

For a couple of years I continued going to Mass once every few months and doing a little bit of research online. During this time I was working for the athletic department at my university. During my last year as an undergraduate the department hired a graduate assistant who was also named Chris. I think we spoke twice that year. After graduating I stayed at the university to attend grad school. I also was hired as a graduate assistant in the athletic department. About a week before I started my first summer session graduate class I went to Mass at St. Josephs. I took my normal place near the back. A few minutes later a lady set down beside me and then Chris (see that wasn’t a completely random reference above) came in and set on the other side of this lady. After Mass he came up to me and said, “I didn’t know you were Catholic!” I told him that I wasn’t and he asked what I was doing there. In the course of this conversation it came out that I was baptized as a Southern Baptist but had been sporadically going to Mass for a few years.

We ended having the same class that summer and he was eager to talk to me about the Catholic Church. He told me that he normally attended St. Thomas Aquinas, the university parish, and invited me to go to Mass there sometime. During the next couple of month’s Chris and I continued to discuss Catholicism and I finally decided to give St. Thomas a try. I believe this was around the last week of September. We were working at a fall softball tournament and I told him I had decided to go to Mass at St. Thomas that evening, since they had Mass at 5:00 pm and 8:00 pm for the sleepy college students who didn’t get out of bed before noon on weekends. So after going home and changing clothes I went to my first Mass at St. Thomas Aquinas. . .

My story: Part 3

I can’t remember why but Chris didn’t make it to Mass at St. Thomas. So as per my custom I took a seat near the back. As this was a university parish most of the people there were closer to my own age. This immediately made me feel more comfortable. The music was also more upbeat and “younger”. I liked this at the time. However, I have now grown to not be so fond of it. But I remember something just felt right…I finally felt like I was some place where I could start to grow. The next week I was out of town and didn’t go to Mass. However, upon getting back from my trip I started going to Mass every Sunday at St. Thomas Aquinas. I didn’t miss a Sunday for well over a year. During this time I continued talking with Chris almost daily. He answered several of my questions and raised new ones. It was about this time that he gave me a copy of Patrick Madrid’s Surprised by Truth. I absorbed the conversion stories it contained, reading nearly cover to cover without stopping. I also started doing a lot of online research and came across the Defenders of the Catholic Faith Forum. The message board gave me a wonderful resource. Many of the poster’s are very knowledgeable and serious about their faith. I also emailed the priest at St. Thomas and asked him to recommend some reading material. Thus my collection of Catholic books began. I also discovered EWTN on my cable box. I spent hours watching Mother Angelica, Life on the Rock, the daily Masses, and just about anything else the aired.

Over the next year I became a sponge. Yet, I still had serious reservations. I wasn’t so sure about Mary and the saints, the True Presence in the Eucharist, papal infallibility, and a whole list of other things. The more I learned about Church history the more I started to feel that I would not be able to deny these things much longer. One night I was watching a show on EWTN when one of the guest priests mentioned the Road to Emmaus story in Luke 24. I pulled out my Bible and read the story of how Jesus appeared to the disciples who did not recognize them and how He was made known to them through the breaking of the bread. At that moment I knew in my heart that Christ was truly present, Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, in the Eucharist. From there all of my objections to the teachings of the Catholic Church began to crumble.

At some point during this time I was home for a weekend visit when my mom told me that she had noticed that I had brought my Bible home with me and asked if I was going to church again. I told her yes, I was going to a Catholic church. This caught her a bit by surprise. I had a brief conversation with my parents about this. I expected much more. They asked little more than, “You still believe in Jesus right?” You have to remember that Catholics are few and far between where I grew up so few people know anything about the Catholic Faith. My mother also wanted to be assured that Catholic didn’t worship Mary.

As the Easter season approached I found myself questioning the option of converting. Even though I had come to accept the Church’s teachings and authority I wasn’t quite ready to make that commitment. On Holy Thursday I went to Mass at St. Joseph’s. While everyone was receiving communion I knelt and prayed to God that he direct me. I gave myself over, telling God that if the Catholic Church was where he wanted me then that was where I would go. Before the end of the communion procession I had my answer. I knew in my heart that I could no longer fight it and must become Catholic.

That spring, Chris talked me into taking a mission trip to Southeast Arkansas. St. Thomas usually sends missions to Honduras during spring break and Southeast Arkansas the week after spring classes ended. However, that particular year spring break coincided with Holy Week so both missions were planned for the week after classes ended. There ended up only being four of us who made the trip to Southeast Arkansas while the rest went to Honduras. We spent the week living in an old Franciscan Friary on the grounds of St. Mary’s church in McGehee, Arkansas. We spent the week helping out with several projects and spending time with Father Eric and Sister Sarah. We attended Mass each day and had Evening Prayer together each night. We also got into several conversations many of which concerned my conversion. For some reason I had still not shared my decision to join RCIA the following fall with anyone. Near the end of the trip, I did tell the others that I was planning to convert.

An interesting tangent to this story, the running joke the entire week was that I was destined to go to the seminary to become a priest. As per tradition of the mission trip we made up a song to describe all the people involved in the trip. The verse that was written for me was, “Then there's Chris / our Baptist missionary / next to become Catholic / then to the seminary.” This half-joking suggestion went on for the entire week and largely stemmed from Chris’ long insistence that he was convinced that I would convert and one day become a priest. I of course denied these charges. I will confess now that I was not entirely honest. This possibility had been on my mind for several months. I still remember vividly the first time a few months before Chris said to me, “You know what? I think you will be priest someday.” I was shaken by his comment. I had considered the possibility several times already and the fact that someone else would suggest it was unsettling. Until now this is something that I have kept mostly to myself. So, Chris if you read this I hope you are happy now! For the most part I have come to believe that this is not the path that God has laid out before me. However, I will not say that the possibility is not there. I’m still searching for that path and pray that I will have the strength and wisdom to answer God’s will whatever it turns out to be.

Okay, back to the story. I continued to go to Mass at St. Thomas during the summer and told my parents that I had decided to enroll in RCIA classes to prepare for reception into the Catholic Church. In September of 2005 I joined RCIA. I enjoyed the classes and continued to read as much about the Faith as I could get my hands on. As all humans are apt to do I had my ups and down, my moment’s of doubt, and sense of confusion. However, God had called me home to His one true holy, catholic, and apostolic church and I trusted him to lead me. I was confirmed in the Catholic Church at the 2006 Easter Vigil at St. Bernard’s in Bella Vista, Arkansas. Since then I have moved to Kansas where I have been blessed with a wonderful parish. I continue to have my ups and downs but I put my trust in God to lead me in all things.


Do you have a conversion story you would like to share on this blog? If so, please email me at catholicconverts@gmail.com and please consider adding your blog to the Catholic Converts blogroll.


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism
KEYWORDS: catholic
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(*) I combined the three (not two!) parts together. A-x.
1 posted on 04/22/2008 2:00:13 PM PDT by annalex
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To: 353FMG; Always Right; Antoninus; ArrogantBustard; CTK YKC; dan1123; DogwoodSouth; FourtySeven; ...
50 Days of Easter 2008 Celebration ping, dedicated to converts to the Catholic faith. If you want to be on the list but are not on it already, or if you are on it but do not want to be, let me know either publicly or privately.

Happy Easter. Christ is risen!

Alex.


Previously posted conversion stories:

Anti-Catholicism, Hypocrisy and Double Standards
Hauled Aboard the Ark
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part I: Darkness
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part II: Doubts
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part III: Tradition and Church
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part IV: Crucifix and Altar
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part V: The Catholics and the Pope
Why I Returned to the Catholic Church. Part VI: The Biblical Reality
His Open Arms Welcomed Me
Catholic Conversion Stories & Resources
My Personal Conversion Story
My (Imminent) Reception into the Roman Catholic Church
Catholics Come Home
My Journey of Faith
LOGIC AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF PROTESTANTISM
"What is Truth?" An Examination of Sola Scriptura
"Have you not read?" The Authority behind Biblical Interpretation
The Crisis of Authority in the Reformation
Our Journey Home
Our Lady’s Gentle Call to Peace
A story of conversion at the Lamb of God Shrine
Who is Mary of Nazareth?
Mary and the Problem of Christian Unity
Why I'm Catholic
A Convert's Response to Friends

Also see:
Sheep That Go Astray
Pope Benedict Goes to Washington Ecumenical Meeting at St. Joseph's Church, New York

2 posted on 04/22/2008 2:01:39 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

Sure a lot of inter-denominational Christian bickering on F.R.

Not sure how constructive it is.


3 posted on 04/22/2008 2:05:36 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: annalex

Bookmarking. Thank you!


4 posted on 04/22/2008 2:07:28 PM PDT by VRWCer (Barack Hussein Obama - The scrofulous Pied Piper of stupid people.)
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To: MeanWestTexan

I stay away from interdenominational issues. I am Catholic; I am only interested in explaining what my faith is and why.


5 posted on 04/22/2008 2:09:15 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
So, basically, this person wasn't serious about his faith until he was older and in college. At that time, he happened to start to go to a Catholic church, which he felt ministered to his college-needs.

His arguments make it sound as though he could have just as easily attended other campus churches.

So he chose Catholicism seemingly largely from convenience.

Not a great conversion story to hear for Catholicism.

6 posted on 04/22/2008 2:17:12 PM PDT by ConservativeMind
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To: annalex

I am not doubting your sincerity or intent, but this kind of post just seems to invite yet another “my denomination is better than your denomination,” which are generally not constructive discussions.

With rare exceptions, protestants of every type, to Roman catholics, to Anglican Catholics, to Messianic Jews (me) agree on 99.94% of theology.

If only more time was spent on the rest as that .06%, the greater Christian Church would be much better off.


7 posted on 04/22/2008 2:22:04 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: ConservativeMind

This is a story of growth, — a rather typical Catholic conversion story. Most Catholic converts do not go away from their old faith, they simply grow into the Catholic Church.


8 posted on 04/22/2008 2:30:43 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: MeanWestTexan

God bless you; if indeed I could see that 99.94% agreement I would not be running the series. What I see, however, are, to pick a few examples, accusations of the Catholics being deceived into a cult by power-hungry priests, of ignorance and rejection of the Holy Scripture, and of idolatry. That is 0.06%?

This thread is not so typical, because the author is not arguing with anyone, he is simply telling his own story. For that, he is immediately dismissed as an airheaded student, hardly a charitable attitude either. If you peruse the links at my first post, you will see little evidence of “99.94% agreement”, which is a pity and a scandal.


9 posted on 04/22/2008 2:37:09 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: MeanWestTexan
You seem to be suggesting that "all denominations are equivalent" is the better position.

Catholics believe that Christ founded only one Church, and made Peter the rock on which He built His Church. All other "denominations" not in full communion with Peter's episcopal successor are in some form of schism from the Church Christ founded. We believe *that* is the "better" position, because we believe that is the truth. We believe that the notion that all denominations are equivalent is false, and is a form of gnosticism that denies the necessity of full *visible*, *material*, and *institutional* unity, as well as the possibility of schism and heresy.

-A8

10 posted on 04/22/2008 2:55:22 PM PDT by adiaireton8 ("I believe and profess all that the Holy Catholic Church ... proclaims to be revealed by God.")
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To: ConservativeMind
So, basically, this person wasn't serious about his faith until he was older and in college. At that time, he happened to start to go to a Catholic church, which he felt ministered to his college-needs. His arguments make it sound as though he could have just as easily attended other campus churches. So he chose Catholicism seemingly largely from convenience. Not a great conversion story to hear for Catholicism.

No it was a great story. See, we are mindless fools who should base our spiritual beliefs on some guy we don't even know, because we know he must be smarter than us. I am convinced.

11 posted on 04/22/2008 3:02:09 PM PDT by Always Right (Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?)
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To: adiaireton8
I don't think you are using the word "gnostism" correctly. Generally, it refers to "secret" teaching --- e.g., like the mormons who think you need the secret temple handshake to get into higher levels of heaven, that sort of thing. Gnosticism (Greek: γνώσις gnōsis, knowledge) refers to a diverse, syncretistic religious movement consisting of various belief systems generally united in the teaching that humans are divine souls trapped in a material world created by an imperfect spirit, the demiurge, who is frequently identified with the Abrahamic God. The demiurge may be depicted as an embodiment of evil, or in other instances as merely imperfect and as benevolent as its inadequacy permits. This demiurge exists alongside another remote and unknowable supreme being that embodies good. In order to free oneself from the inferior material world, one needs gnosis, or esoteric spiritual knowledge available to all through direct experience or knowledge (gnosis) of God.[1][2] Jesus of Nazareth is identified by some Gnostic sects as an embodiment of the supreme being who became incarnate to bring gnosis to the Earth. In others he was thought to be a gnosis teacher, and yet others, nothing more than a man (see, for instance, the writings of Valentinus).[3] Gnosticism was popular in the Mediterranean and middle eastern regions in the second and third centuries, though some scholars claim it was suppressed and was actually popular as early as the first century, predating Jesus Christ[4] as a dualistic heresy in areas controlled by the Roman Empire when Christianity became its state religion in the fourth century. Conversion to Islam and the Albigensian Crusade greatly reduced the remaining number of Gnostics throughout the middle ages, though a few isolated communities continue to exist to the present. Gnostic ideas became influential in the philosophies of various esoteric mystical movements of the late 19th and 20th centuries in Europe and North America, including some that explicitly identify themselves as revivals or even continuations of earlier gnostic groups.
12 posted on 04/22/2008 3:22:52 PM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (McCain is the best candidate of the Democrat party.)
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To: annalex

“If you peruse the links at my first post, you will see little evidence of “99.94% agreement”, which is a pity and a scandal.”

I would respectfully agree with the earlier poster that the major denominations all in agreement on the core of the gospel. (Don’t know about 99.44%, though.) Certainly crucifiction, death, resurrection of Jesust the Christ for our sins. Even sola scriptura folks hit 90+%.

Could some denominations have it more right that others?

Sure.

If you haven’t noticed, there are actual mohammedians and pagans and satanist and materialists/secularist who want to thwart (and/or kill) Christians of every type.

THIS is a very real war against the body of Christ, waged by Satan.

Given the seriousness of said war, it seems best to put aside denominational differences (for now — I am not saying they are not legitimate) and concentrate on real enemies.

In this regard, someone switching from Roman Catholic to Methodist or whatever this story was about seems, well, very Northern Ireland.

I mean seriously -— a believing Baptized Christian is a Baptised Christian and, full communion or no full communion, will end up in heaven.

Stories of mohammedians (who would go to Hell) switching to Roman Catholic? Now THAT’s a legitimate event.


13 posted on 04/22/2008 3:34:14 PM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (McCain is the best candidate of the Democrat party.)
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To: TheThirdRuffian; adiaireton8

The reference in post 10 was to the belief in the invisible church that is united in some or another intangible way, while visibly splintered. It is reminiscent to gnosticism in that gnosticism has an apparent difficulty with Christ’s incarnation in the human body, and Protestantism has an apparent difficulty with Christ founding one visible Church of human beings which is His one undivided mystical Body. You are correct that gnosticism as a whole cannot be limited to just this one aspect.


14 posted on 04/22/2008 3:42:51 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

“What I see, however, are, to pick a few examples, accusations of the Catholics being deceived into a cult by power-hungry priests, of ignorance and rejection of the Holy Scripture, and of idolatry.”

Sure, that kind of garbage is exactly the kind of thing that is not constructive -— and takes up 99% of inter-denominational dialog.

There is ample shared theology, and seldom discussed.


15 posted on 04/22/2008 3:44:20 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: TheThirdRuffian
I mean seriously -— a believing Baptized Christian is a Baptised Christian and, full communion or no full communion, will end up in heaven.

And there lies the rub. Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. Who is a "believing Baptized Christian?" Are Mormons? Jehovah's Witnesses? Are Jews saved if they do not recognize Christ? Is it impossible for a Muslim to go to Heaven, if they never really hear the Gospel?

Catholics continue to hold onto their faith because, in the immortal words of Lincoln, "A house divided against itself cannot stand." I agree there are other issues facing us in the world today, but focusing solely on external affairs and ignoring internal strife can lead to an internal collapse of what we are fighting for. It is the same with the war on terror - we might very well defeat Islamic terrorism, but if our culture continues to collapse, it will be a Pyrric victory.

16 posted on 04/22/2008 3:47:51 PM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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To: TheThirdRuffian

When I see a reasonable attitude to Catholicism prevail on FR religion forum, I will be very happy indeed.

However, an interest in the absolute truth is an important aspect of our humanity. We can cooperate where we can, for example, in the political arena or in witness to the non-Christian world, but such cooperation should not come at a price of indifferentism, which deadens the soul.


17 posted on 04/22/2008 3:48:55 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
I stay away from interdenominational issues. I am Catholic; I am only interested in explaining what my faith is and why.

The sibling I am closest to, spiritually speaking, is a practicing Catholic. I'm a Calvinist -- someone who processes Protestant convictions through Catholic hard wiring. Something about being raised a Catholic predisposes one to seeking global implications for his faith.

For me, as much as I respect my beloved fellow Christians of the Roman communion, the cult of the BVM is an insuperable barrier on the road back to Rome.

Meanwhile, I am grateful for the vast majority of theology and conviction we have in common.

18 posted on 04/22/2008 3:50:07 PM PDT by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
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To: MeanWestTexan
There is ample shared theology, and seldom discussed

But we cannot discuss it unless we have a common platform of mutual respect. For example, a conversion to Catholicism should be treated like a sincere journey of faith of an intelligent human being, not like an impressionable youth being fooled by bells and smells.

19 posted on 04/22/2008 3:54:15 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

Well, all I can say is there are plenty of idiots in this world. Can’t worry about them.

Perhaps start a series of threads on the Book of Hebrews and work your way through it. Use a Roman Catholic study guide, if that’s what you have.

Tell everyone the rules are: to not mention their denomination -— no cutting and pasting from other sites.

Just believers and the Holy Spirit.


20 posted on 04/22/2008 4:05:24 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: thefrankbaum

“And there lies the rub. Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. Who is a “believing Baptized Christian?” Are Mormons? Jehovah’s Witnesses? Are Jews saved if they do not recognize Christ? Is it impossible for a Muslim to go to Heaven, if they never really hear the Gospel?”

I don’t think that is a “rub” with any major Christian denomination.


21 posted on 04/22/2008 4:10:25 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: RJR_fan

So, in your opinion, God leads people to sin and damnation, and the Mother of God has inspired a cult?


22 posted on 04/22/2008 4:12:37 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: MeanWestTexan

By which I mean, all major denominations deem a Baptism to be with water, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

(Even Baptists (who like to dunk) recognize that their dunking practice is a denominational quirk and not a “saving grace” requirement.)


23 posted on 04/22/2008 4:13:53 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: annalex; RJR_fan

Exactly the kind of bickering that is not constructive.

Shhh.


24 posted on 04/22/2008 4:14:56 PM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: MeanWestTexan
I don’t think that is a “rub” with any major Christian denomination.

But that is exactly what it is - who is a Christian? There are almost 13 million Mormons in the world. Obviously they have very different beliefs than most Christian denominations. I just get so confused when people say a "believing Baptised Christian" will go to Heaven.

25 posted on 04/22/2008 4:15:22 PM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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To: MeanWestTexan

I do think that anyone who is willing to study the Holy Scripture without preconditioning will end up Catholic or Orthodox. However, we are not capable of abstracting the scripture from our own cultural lens, unless we read it with the fathers of the Church. What usually happens when people read the scripture thinking it is “just them and the Holy Spirit” is that they remain what they are: middle class Americans, while the scripture was written for 1 century “Greeks” and Jews.


26 posted on 04/22/2008 4:19:49 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: MeanWestTexan

He started it...


27 posted on 04/22/2008 4:20:35 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...
One day he suggested that attend Mass with him to see for myself.

Right up there with Dr. Scott Hahn's experience.


Scott Hahn’s The Lamb's Supper - The Mass as Heaven on Earth.
Foreword by Fr. Benedict Groeschel.
Part One - The Gift of the Mass


Hahn begins by describing the first mass he ever attended.

"There I stood, a man incognito, a Protestant minister in plainclothes, slipping into the back of a Catholic chapel in Milwaukee to witness my first Mass. Curiosity had driven me there, and I still didn't feel sure that it was healthy curiosity. Studying the writings of the earliest Christians, I'd found countless references to "the liturgy," "the Eucharist," "the sacrifice." For those first Christians, the Bible - the book I loved above all - was incomprehensible apart from the event that today's Catholics called "the Mass."

"I wanted to understand the early Christians; yet I'd had no experience of liturgy. So I persuaded myself to go and see, as a sort of academic exercise, but vowing all along that I would neither kneel nor take part in idolatry."

I took my seat in the shadows, in a pew at the very back of that basement chapel. Before me were a goodly number of worshipers, men and women of all ages. Their genuflections impressed me, as did their apparent concentration in prayer. Then a bell rang, and they all stood as the priest emerged from a door beside the altar.

Unsure of myself, I remained seated. For years, as an evangelical Calvinist, I'd been trained to believe that the Mass was the ultimate sacrilege a human could commit. The Mass, I had been taught, was a ritual that purported to "resacrifice Jesus Christ." So I would remain an observer. I would stay seated, with my Bible open beside me.

As the Mass moved on, however, something hit me. My Bible wasn't just beside me. It was before me - in the words of the Mass! One line was from Isaiah, another from Psalms, another from Paul. The experience was overwhelming. I wanted to stop everything and shout, "Hey, can I explain what's happening from Scripture? This is great!" Still, I maintained my observer status. I remained on the sidelines until I heard the priest pronounce the words of consecration: "This is My body . . . This is the cup of My blood."

Then I felt all my doubt drain away. As I saw the priest raise that white host, I felt a prayer surge from my heart in a whisper: "My Lord and my God. That's really you!"

I was what you might call a basket case from that point. I couldn't imagine a greater excitement than what those words had worked upon me. Yet the experience was intensified just a moment later, when I heard the congregation recite: "Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God . . . Lamb of God," and the priest respond, "This is the Lamb of God . . ." as he raised the host. In less than a minute, the phrase "Lamb of God" had rung out four times. From long years of studying the Bible, I immediately knew where I was. I was in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus is called the Lamb no less than twenty-eight times in twenty-two chapters. I was at the marriage feast that John describes at the end of that very last book of the Bible. I was before the throne of heaven, where Jesus is hailed forever as the Lamb. I wasn't ready for this, though - I was at Mass!

28 posted on 04/22/2008 4:31:33 PM PDT by NYer (!)
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To: NYer

Yup. This underscores one typically Catholic thing: while to an Evangelical faith is what he thinks, to a Catholic faith is what he does.


29 posted on 04/22/2008 5:36:15 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: NYer
Having read this, I was made to recall exactly upon what occasion I first read this book, and how instrumental it was in removing the scales from my eyes.

A great memory.

30 posted on 04/22/2008 5:43:58 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (media is now a double-edged sword; it's no longer a billy-club in the hands of the big goons.)
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To: NYer
From long years of studying the Bible, I immediately knew where I was. I was in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus is called the Lamb no less than twenty-eight times in twenty-two chapters. I was at the marriage feast that John describes at the end of that very last book of the Bible. I was before the throne of heaven, where Jesus is hailed forever as the Lamb. I wasn't ready for this, though - I was at Mass!

********************

Thank goodness I have a box of tissues nearby.

31 posted on 04/22/2008 5:48:50 PM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: annalex
Dear annalex,

“This underscores one typically Catholic thing: while to an Evangelical faith is what he thinks, to a Catholic faith is what he does.”

That's why to Catholics, the dichotomization of faith and works is false.


sitetest

32 posted on 04/22/2008 7:55:39 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: annalex

“For example, a conversion to Catholicism should be treated like a sincere journey of faith of an intelligent human being, not like an impressionable youth being fooled by bells and smells. “

Should a conversion from Catholicism to Evangelical Christianity also be treated like a sincere journey of faith of an intelligent human being, not like an impressionable dolt who converts simply out of ignorance of his Catholic faith?


33 posted on 04/22/2008 8:08:16 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: MeanWestTexan; annalex; RJR_fan

“Exactly the kind of bickering that is not constructive.

Shhh.”

Hey, MeanWestTexan, you don’t happen to be selling sheet music versions of “Kumbaya” - do ya?


34 posted on 04/22/2008 8:12:34 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: NYer

“As I saw the priest raise that white host, I felt a prayer surge from my heart in a whisper: “My Lord and my God. That’s really you!””

I’ve been reading and studying the Bible, as a Christian, for 25 years. And I mean this without a desire to provoke, but the above statement sounds utterly alien in concept to the Scripture I’ve learned. Nowhere in all of Scripture does anyone ever point to any inanimate object and call it “God”. The most radical event in the Scripture is when people called a man “God”.

The disciple said, “And he became flesh, and dwelt among us”. They didn’t say, “and he became bread and dwelt among us.”


35 posted on 04/22/2008 8:21:06 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: sitetest; annalex

“That’s why to Catholics, the dichotomization of faith and works is false.”

Are you referring to forensic justification?


36 posted on 04/22/2008 8:22:45 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Eiher you believe it, or you don’t believe it.

No one can MAKE you believe it. Belief in the Eucharistic Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is an article of Faith.

Only God can give you that faith.

We can’t.


37 posted on 04/22/2008 8:23:57 PM PDT by Palladin (Pennsylvania: guns, religion, and liberty.)
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To: Palladin

“Eiher you believe it, or you don’t believe it. No one can MAKE you believe it. Belief in the Eucharistic Body and Blood of Jesus Christ is an article of Faith. Only God can give you that faith.”

I would believe it if I found it in the Scriptures. I know that Jesus refers to the elements and “his body”, but he also refers to himself as “the door” - yet the Scripture doesn’t want us to believe he’s made of wood.

Paul, when speaking to the Bereans, counseled them to go and search the Scriptures to see if what he said was true. He wasn’t expecting to Divine act to suddenly cause them to believe whatever he said.

You seem to treat faith as if it is some Kierkegaardian leap in the dark. Faith is a product of hearing and understanding the Scriptures.


38 posted on 04/22/2008 8:32:16 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

And you seem to worship a book, rather than the living God whom the book was written about.


39 posted on 04/22/2008 8:33:42 PM PDT by Palladin (Pennsylvania: guns, religion, and liberty.)
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To: Palladin

“And you seem to worship a book, rather than the living God whom the book was written about.”

What gives you that impression?


40 posted on 04/22/2008 8:37:21 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: annalex
So, in your opinion, God leads people to sin and damnation, ...

God, for reasons of His own, makes Himself known to His own, while allowing others to go their own ways, their preferred way. Deception is sweet, the road to hell is smooth, easy, paved with good intentions. Only electing grace can incline a man to the harder path of truth.

and the Mother of God has inspired a cult?

Deception is sweet. Usually cloaked in the most wholesome of contexts and platitudes. The spiritually deceived person, the gulled gent, often achieves more notable levels of chaste and gracious living than the struggling redeemed sinner. Mormons are famed for the apparent external cleanliness of their lives and families, for example. I have a recent and very personal story to share later on today, about how a very similar deception looks from the inside.

41 posted on 04/23/2008 4:52:50 AM PDT by RJR_fan (Winners and lovers shape the future. Whiners and losers TRY TO PREDICT IT.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; Palladin
I’ve been reading and studying the Bible, as a Christian, for 25 years. And I mean this without a desire to provoke, but the above statement sounds utterly alien in concept to the Scripture I’ve learned. Nowhere in all of Scripture does anyone ever point to any inanimate object and call it “God”.

I have no doubt you are well versed in Scripture and have embraced it with all your heart. In so doing, you have arrived at opinions based on personal interpretation. Is private interpretation of the Bible condoned in the Bible Itself? No, it is not (2 Peter 1:20). Was individual interpretation of Scripture practiced by the early Christians or the Jews? Again, "NO" (Acts 8:29-35). The assertion that individuals can correctly interpret Scripture is false. Even the "founder" of Sola Scriptura (Martin Luther), near the end of his life, was afraid that "any milkmaid who could read" would found a new Christian denomination based on his or her "interpretation" of the Bible. As we can now see, he was right.

Can there be more than one interpretation of the Bible? No. The word "truth" is used several times in the New Testament. However, the plural version of the word "truth" never appears in Scripture. Therefore, there can only be one Truth. So how can there be over 20,000 non-Catholic Christian denominations all claiming to have the "Truth"?

Moreover, is the Bible to be taken literally - "word for word?" No. The Bible doesn't state anywhere that It should be taken literally. The Bible was written by different authors with different literary styles at different times in history and in different languages. Therefore, the writings should be interpreted with these circumstances in mind. The Bible is a religious book, not a scientific or a history "textbook."

Did Jesus Christ write down any part of the New Testament with His own hand? No, He did not. If the Bible was to be the sole authority of the Church, shouldn't the Founder have written down His Own teachings? Shouldn't He have at least stated something similar to the following: "the written works of My disciples will be the authority upon which My Church is based?"

To have the Bible as the only and sole authority of Christianity is to invite chaos into His Church. There are at least 5 Protestant denominations created every year based on a different interpretation of the Bible. Theoretically, anyone who owns a Bible can create their own denomination based on their own interpretation of Scripture. The Bible Itself never states that It is the sole and only authority of Christianity. The word "Bible" is not even mentioned in Scripture. However, it is one of the authorities in Christianity, but where does It state that It alone is the only authority?

That said, let's recall our Lord's words, as recorded by the Apostle, Matthew and the Evangelist, Luke.


Matthew 26:26 - While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, "Take and eat; this is my body."

Luke 22:19 - Then he took the bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body, which will be given for you; do this in memory of me."

Jesus states that the bread is His body. Since He is God, then that bread has become God. Jesus further states do this. For 2,000 years, Catholics and Orthodox have followed that commandment. After saying the words of Consecration, the priest elevates the host which has now become the Body of Christ. Dr. Scott Hahn, a theologian and former protestant minister, recognized these verses of Scripture at that moment and immediately responded in humility: My Lord and my God!

42 posted on 04/23/2008 6:14:39 AM PDT by NYer (!)
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To: thefrankbaum

“But that is exactly what it is - who is a Christian?”

St. Paul set the theshold very clearly. (The bar is pretty low — no idea if Mormons make it or not.)


43 posted on 04/23/2008 7:29:45 AM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

No, just a mean Jew who accepted Christ, and tired of the crap.


44 posted on 04/23/2008 7:31:36 AM PDT by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Mossad!)
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To: thefrankbaum

“Who is a “believing Baptized Christian?””

Whoever accepts this gift:

1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.


45 posted on 04/23/2008 8:42:25 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (McCain is the best candidate of the Democrat party.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

I would assume he was reading Ephesians 4:

1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Romans 14, which addresses denominational variances:

Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11It is written:
“ ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.’ “[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.

13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food[b] is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.

22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.

There is another passage specifically on the issue that differing beliefs on non-core gospel issues will arise, to believe such “fervently in your heart” but to not let it interfere with the core gospel.


46 posted on 04/23/2008 8:57:49 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (McCain is the best candidate of the Democrat party.)
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To: TheThirdRuffian

“There is another passage specifically on the issue that differing beliefs on non-core gospel issues will arise, to believe such “fervently in your heart” but to not let it interfere with the core gospel.”

Actually, to correct myself I think that’s in there Romans 14:2 -— the first denomination dispute being about kosher food and circumcision (glad that one worked out. . . ).


47 posted on 04/23/2008 9:01:20 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (McCain is the best candidate of the Democrat party.)
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To: sitetest
to Catholics, the dichotomization of faith and works is false

Not just to Catholics, to any serious student of the scripture it is false. Jesus and the Apostles never taught that.

48 posted on 04/23/2008 9:03:58 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: TheThirdRuffian

“There is another passage specifically on the issue that differing beliefs on non-core gospel issues will arise, to believe such “fervently in your heart” but to not let it interfere with the core gospel.”

When it comes to dunking vs. sprinkling I can see that. But the difference between Protestants and Catholics goes right to the heart of the gospel - namely, are people justified in God’s sight by grace alone through faith or are works an additional requirement.


49 posted on 04/23/2008 9:12:55 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus

1. That’s not the “heart of the gospel” The heart of the gospel is just exactly in the quote above (death, resurrection).

2. The distinction between RC and Protestants on faith and works is not as great, in practice, as one would think. The most fervant “faith alone” Protestant fully agrees that “faith without works is dead” (to quote James) and fully agrees that a “saved” person:

(1) has the obligation to act uprightly as detailed by St. Paul, John, and others and

(2) will be empowered, by the Holy Spirit, to do “all such good works as [God] has prepared for [said person] to do and thus will, through prayer and communion with God by-and-through Jesus Christ/the Holy Spirit.

Basically, I don’t care who is correct on the issue of faith/works:

I fully intend to strive, with all my human effort —— and the overwhelming help of the Lord -— to do my best to act as Christ would want me to do because I love the Lord Jesus Christ, and I don’t want to dissapoint him/his Father who gave me such a Blessing.


50 posted on 04/23/2008 9:28:43 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (McCain is the best candidate of the Democrat party.)
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