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What old-guard feminists get wrong about Catholics
Dallas News ^ | April 27, 2008 | Kathryn Jean Lopez

Posted on 04/28/2008 6:33:10 AM PDT by NYer

In the run-up to Pope Benedict XVI's visit to the United States, there was a tremendous display of unseriousness at the National Press Club, followed by a sacrilege at a nearby Washington, D.C., church.

A misguided group called the Women's Ordination Conference held a protest – a press conference and an all-woman "Mass" at a local Methodist church. The group, as the name suggests, wants to see "the ordination of women as priests, deacons and bishops." Sadly, the group doesn't understand women or the Catholic Church.

In a prepared statement, WOC executive director Aisha Taylor declared:

"The failure to ordain women is a blatant manifestation of sexism in the church that has wider repercussions in the world.

"In the three years of his papacy, Pope Benedict XVI has made a few encouraging statements about women, but he has done nothing that suggests willingness to open the discussion on women's ordination. That's why for his 81st birthday, we are offering the pope a present: the gift of women, their leadership, talents, experiences and unique perspectives."

The group trailed the popemobile to papal events with a billboard truck that asked: "Pope Benedict, How long must women wait for equality? Ordain Catholic Women."

As they are stuck on their version of "equality," the fundamental problem with the group and its message is that whatever Benedict says or does will not be enough for them. They are not open to listening, but to dictating an unworkable agenda. If they were open to it, they would hear and see the Roman Catholic Church's embrace and celebration of women. Women will not be priests, but they will always be an essential part of the Church.

(Excerpt) Read more at dallasnews.com ...


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholics; feminists; papalvisit; womenpriests; wymynpryysts
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1 posted on 04/28/2008 6:33:12 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Ping


2 posted on 04/28/2008 6:33:46 AM PDT by NYer (Jesus whom I know as my Redeemer cannot be less than God. - St. Athanasius)
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To: NYer
Yet - they are silent on how islam treats women as slaves...
3 posted on 04/28/2008 6:34:54 AM PDT by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - they want to die for islam and we want to kill them)
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To: NYer

I want it all
I want it all
I want it all
And I want it now.

What a bunch of doofuses.


4 posted on 04/28/2008 6:44:25 AM PDT by netmilsmom (I am very mad at Disney. Give me my James Marsden song!!!!!)
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To: NYer

There is simply no good reason women should not be eligible for the priesthood. I am Catholic, and most of the Catholics I know agree with me, but also agree that the Church is so behind on this issue, we’re not likely to see a remedy in our lifetimes.


5 posted on 04/28/2008 7:17:12 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: TraditionalistMommy

Are you serious or joking? If you’re serious, then why is your name “TraditionalistMommy”?


6 posted on 04/28/2008 7:22:37 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: Pyro7480

Serious. And I am mostly a traditionalist. But this is absurd, especially in light of the priest shortage, so many young people moving away from the Church. It’s long past time to come out of the dark ages on this issue. We are shooting ourselves in the foot.


7 posted on 04/28/2008 7:26:46 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: NYer
hosting by pHosted.com
8 posted on 04/28/2008 7:28:38 AM PDT by Clear Rivers
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To: TraditionalistMommy

Jesus did not select women to be his apostles, he chose men. And if it’s good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me. How dare you go against the will of the Lord!


9 posted on 04/28/2008 7:30:46 AM PDT by notaliberal (Christ Our Hope!)
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To: TraditionalistMommy
1) Theological reasons for not ordaining women are laid out in Pope John Paul II's (infallibly declared) encyclical Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. If you haven't read it, you might consider doing so.

2) In my own personal opinion, the best practical argument against ordaining women is to be found in the character of the women most loudly clamouring for ordination. They appear to see the priesthood exclusively in terms of power and authority, rather than service and sacrifice.

10 posted on 04/28/2008 7:35:35 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: TraditionalistMommy

Its an APOSTOLIC church.


11 posted on 04/28/2008 7:37:42 AM PDT by Havok (The cake is a LIE....)
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To: notaliberal

The will of the Lord? If Christ were preaching today, you really think he would advocate treating women, or anyone, as second class citizens? His treatment of women and other subjugated people was remarkably advanced in its time. Why would you think it would be so backward now?


12 posted on 04/28/2008 7:40:08 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: TraditionalistMommy
It isn't about treating anyone as "second-class citizens." Christ is the Bridegroom, the Church is the Bride. The priest is a symbol of that relationship. That is why a woman cannot fulfill that roll.

That being said, your language is ripped right out of the playbook of the women's ordination movement. You may claim to be a "traditionalist," but, at least on this issue, you've exposed yourself as anything but.

13 posted on 04/28/2008 7:45:34 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: 2banana

Currently, Islam is on the same side as the feminists -

their common enemy is the existence and dominance of Western Culture.


14 posted on 04/28/2008 7:46:49 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: ArrogantBustard

If character is the issue, you’re standing on very shaky ground, considering the shocking number of male priests who have sexually abused CHILDREN in recent decades. Do you think they saw the priesthood in terms of service and sacrifice?

Your sweeping generalization about women you see as “clamouring for ordination” is especially weak in this context.

If women were eligible, then perhaps we would have sufficient qualified, decent applicants for the priesthood to actually achieve a majority of priests interested in service and sacrifice. At the moment, it’s slim pickin’s.


15 posted on 04/28/2008 7:46:55 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: TraditionalistMommy

The Bible is pretty clear on the roles that the sexes were created with.

It’s not about 1st class vs 2nd class, it’s about proper role fulfillment.

When you attempt to use something, anything, for other than its intended purpose, something is going to break.


16 posted on 04/28/2008 7:49:03 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: Pyro7480

I’m not concerned with how you label me. Have at it.

Your metaphor above is interesting, if you insist on being literal about it. You have to be fairly open to homosexuality to play that one out.


17 posted on 04/28/2008 7:50:55 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: MrB

The Bible states clearly that women shouldn’t be allowed to speak in church. The Catholic Church ignores this rule. Why?


18 posted on 04/28/2008 7:55:01 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: TraditionalistMommy

A traditionalist understands the Church is not a democracy, has never been a democracy, and never will be a democracy. If that is something you can’t accept, there are many alternative Christian sects available that will welcome and celebrate your view of equality.


19 posted on 04/28/2008 7:59:32 AM PDT by workerbee (Ladies do not start fights, but they can finish them.)
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To: TraditionalistMommy

What Christ preached two thousand years ago would be the same today. Christ does not change. He is always correct.


20 posted on 04/28/2008 7:59:48 AM PDT by RexBeach
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To: TraditionalistMommy
You have to be fairly open to homosexuality to play that one out.

Can you be more specific?

21 posted on 04/28/2008 8:01:39 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: TraditionalistMommy
If character is the issue, you’re standing on very shaky ground,

Actually, I'm standing on very solid ground ... the attitude of those who most loudly clamour for female ordination closely mirrors (IMHO) that of those men who have of late behaved most disgracefully in the priesthood.

22 posted on 04/28/2008 8:04:18 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: TraditionalistMommy

I’d just prefer they didn’t vote.

Only half kidding.

We didn’t get all this unconstitutional socialist crap until the 19th was passed,

and women ARE more inclined to vote for “take care of me” instead of “leave me alone to be free” policies.


23 posted on 04/28/2008 8:12:21 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: workerbee

It’s not a democracy, you’re right. That’s one of the reasons the Catholic Church in the United States is dying. It’s a kind of authority not embraced in our society, for better or worse.

I’m happy in my parish for the moment, and still have hope for my Church, a seriously flawed entity (surely we can all agree on that one), but one full of many good people.

The Catholic Church has adapted to society throughout its history, though often at a slow pace. If you think otherwise, you’re kidding yourself.


24 posted on 04/28/2008 8:12:30 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: ArrogantBustard

Your humble opinion, IMHO, is baseless, bigoted nonsense.


25 posted on 04/28/2008 8:13:44 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: MrB

Hmm...take away the votes of half the population so your side has a better chance of winning...

That doesn’t sound like democracy to me.


26 posted on 04/28/2008 8:17:01 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: Pyro7480

I’d prefer not. I think you can figure it out.


27 posted on 04/28/2008 8:18:19 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: TraditionalistMommy

No, explain it. Otherwise, it’s a baseless accusation.


28 posted on 04/28/2008 8:18:52 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: Pyro7480

If you take the Bridegroom/Bride metaphor so literally that you really think it’s required that someone representing the “Bridegroom” have male genitalia, then how do you explain your role as the “Bride” if you also have male genitalia?

You take it literally when it suits you, poetically when it doesn’t.


29 posted on 04/28/2008 8:22:25 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: TraditionalistMommy
It’s not a democracy, you’re right. That’s one of the reasons the Catholic Church in the United States is dying.

Fascinating ...

Hmmm ...

Religious life? Old, anti-traditional orders are indeed dying ... whilst new, orthodox orders are thriving. But MSM won't tell you that.

Vocations to the priesthood? Easy to find ... just look for dioceses where the Bishop hasn't fallen for the least-common-denominator "relevance" that the proponents of democracy in the Church have been clamouring for these last 40 years.

Overflowing Parishes? Easy to find. You'll usually find an orthodox, faithful, courageous, self-sacrificing priest as Pastor.

My opinion here may or may not be bigoted, but it is securely based on Scripture, Tradition, and my observations of the Church for a few decades.

30 posted on 04/28/2008 8:23:26 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: TraditionalistMommy
??? It's not his "metaphor" -- it's the standard and traditional view. See C.S. Lewis' PRIESTESSES IN THE CHURCH?.

From the essay:

We men may often make very bad priests. That is because we are insufficiently masculine. It is no cure to call in those who are not masculine at all.

31 posted on 04/28/2008 8:24:37 AM PDT by maryz
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To: TraditionalistMommy

Did you not read what I said? A priest is a symbol of that relationship. I said that. Symbols have real meaning. You’re the one taking it to this absurd/bizarre homosexual component.


32 posted on 04/28/2008 8:29:58 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: ArrogantBustard

There is a small subset of Catholics moving toward a more fundamentalist approach. But in the real world, the sheer numbers are alarming. More and more parishes with no priests, shrinking attendance, rampant school closings. The majority of new priests are coming from other continents, and there aren’t nearly enough of them. The status quo is not working.


33 posted on 04/28/2008 8:30:35 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: maryz

Thanks maryz. :-)


34 posted on 04/28/2008 8:31:13 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: Pyro7480

I think something very obvious is going right over your head, but I think it’s best to leave you be.


35 posted on 04/28/2008 8:34:21 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: TraditionalistMommy

Look, I don’t think like you. I’m not a mind reader. Stop beating around the bush, and converse like a considerate human being.


36 posted on 04/28/2008 8:35:38 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: TraditionalistMommy
Good job parroting the MSM.

I live in the real world. I see overflowing parishes. I see new parishes being built. I see new schools being built. I see packed seminaries.

No, I'm not in SSPX land ... not even in FSSP land. I'm in Virginia.

You want new priests? Find an orthodox bishop.

You want new religious? Find an orthodox order.

You want dying parishes, closed schools? Find a "relevant" bishop, who's trying to "give the people what they want".

Sorry, lady, you can't snow me with this stuff. I've seen too much first hand.

37 posted on 04/28/2008 8:36:08 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: TraditionalistMommy

democracy?

hmmm... sounds like you haven’t been Constitutionally educated.


38 posted on 04/28/2008 8:36:11 AM PDT by MrB (You can't reason people out of a position that they didn't use reason to get into in the first place)
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To: maryz

I’m well aware. The metaphor, if treated literally, is rather hugely, humorously and ironically flawed, which is why it clearly isn’t meant to be treated so literally.


39 posted on 04/28/2008 8:36:40 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: ArrogantBustard

I’ve been working in the Catholic Church for many years. Your “real world” is a fantasy, I’m sorry to say.


40 posted on 04/28/2008 8:38:00 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: TraditionalistMommy
I’m happy in my parish for the moment, and still have hope for my Church, a seriously flawed entity (surely we can all agree on that one), but one full of many good people.

You have it backward. It's the Church which is good; some of the people are seriously flawed. The topic at hand is a case in point. And if the hope you have is for democracy, it's misplaced. You should look to the myriad Protestant denominations with which you're clearly more closely aligned.

The Catholic Church has adapted to society throughout its history, though often at a slow pace. If you think otherwise, you’re kidding yourself.

The Catholic Church will hardly wither and blow away because some whining feminists don't get their way. If you think otherwise, you're kidding yourself.

41 posted on 04/28/2008 8:39:56 AM PDT by workerbee (Ladies do not start fights, but they can finish them.)
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To: workerbee

The Catholic Church will eventually adapt, and there will be female priests, just as there are female altar servers, female eucharistic ministers, etc. People in your camp will whine and grumble as you always have. The precedent is clear, and you’re right, the Church won’t wither and blow away. It will adapt in order to survive, as it’s always done.


42 posted on 04/28/2008 8:44:31 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: TraditionalistMommy
The will of the Lord? If Christ were preaching today, you really think he would advocate treating women, or anyone, as second class citizens? His treatment of women and other subjugated people was remarkably advanced in its time. Why would you think it would be so backward now?

I'm not a Catholic. You think Jesus would have modified His Message because of the times? His treatment of women would have been the same today as it was then, because the way the Lord treated people is the way people should treat one another.

43 posted on 04/28/2008 8:45:27 AM PDT by xone
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To: TraditionalistMommy
Mt. St. Mary's being full is not fantasy.

St. Charles Borromeo being full is not fantasy.

St. Gregory the Great being full is not fantasy.

Our Lady of Guadalupe (yeah, I know) being full is not fantasy.

The constant construction and expansion of new Parishes in Virginia is not fantasy.

We don't need wymynprysts. We need to more, and expanded, orthodox seminaries.

44 posted on 04/28/2008 8:45:43 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: TraditionalistMommy

In the first place, it’s not a metaphor (which is why I used the quotes) — a metaphor is a figure of speech, and a good one can be illuminating, but it’s still only words. The priesthood is in some part a symbol, reflecting a reality deeper than language.


45 posted on 04/28/2008 8:46:52 AM PDT by maryz
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To: TraditionalistMommy
People in your camp will whine and grumble as you always have.

Thank you for making your position clear.

Good day to you.

46 posted on 04/28/2008 8:47:10 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: maryz

I agree completely. Much deeper than language, which is why it is an utter failure as a justification for denying women the priesthood.


47 posted on 04/28/2008 8:50:52 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: TraditionalistMommy; ArrogantBustard
Dear TraditionalistMommy,

“The majority of new priests are coming from other continents,...”

Not in my archdiocese, but still, it's true, a large number are coming from other continents.

Interestingly, they're coming from places where Catholics are significantly more “conservative” in belief than most dioceses in the United States. The foreign-born priests that I've been privileged to know are far less likely, as they move into the hierarchy, to push for womynpriests than some of the folks currently in the hierarchy.

As well, the homegrown priests we have in our archdiocese are nearly all significantly more “conservative” than the previous generation.

The greatest shortages of priests are in the least orthodox dioceses.

Kind of a self-correcting problem, it seems to me.


sitetest

48 posted on 04/28/2008 8:56:02 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: xone

Jesus knew his audience, and used a template people were able to understand and relate to at the time. I’ve yet to meet a Catholic priest who would tell you otherwise.


49 posted on 04/28/2008 8:57:36 AM PDT by TraditionalistMommy
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To: TraditionalistMommy
If Christ were preaching today, you really think he would advocate treating women, or anyone, as second class citizens?

Ordination is not a right, it is not something anyone can demand, and the lack of ordination does not make anyone a "second-class citizen".

But if you're a Catholic, it should be sufficient for you that the Church's inability to ordain women was infallibly taught by Pope John Paul II. That means it will never change. Not in your lifetime, not in your children's lifetime, not 10,000 years from now.

50 posted on 04/28/2008 9:01:48 AM PDT by Campion
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