Posted on 05/01/2008 5:07:35 PM PDT by annalex
A moment's honest reflection will show you that you cannot be born again of the spirit when you are six weeks old. What do you think salvation consists of? A magical state of worthiness, conferred through others in infant baptism? It is something the individual human being must experience and take part in, the pivotal and defining moment of a person's life.
Re: 197:
There is, of course, backsliding, and your eternal salvation can be lost if you throw it away, after being saved, in this fashion and never return to the Lord. On this issue we seem to be a bit closer than on what it means to be born again.
Yet it's always a good idea to remember that he is omniscient, his mind is not completely knowable to us, and his mercy is greater than our mercy. So we ought not to judge others, as it says, especially with arbitrary rules and schedules.
Why should I do that? I think denominations are poison in and of themselves. I belong to his church in the right meaning of the word.
The reason Tyndale was burned at the stake (a common punishment of the day, also administered frequently by Protestants on Catholics, by the way), is because his "translation" wasn't accurate, and introduced various heresies. The Church had ALREADY provided Bibles in native language translations at that time. Try learning some accurate history for a change.
"Gosh...Jesus had it wrong. He should have just taught the academically educated ‘magisterium’ instead of the masses. Nice."
See above. There were lots of translations available to the masses already. Good book "Where we Got the Bible" by Henry G. Graham (a bit dated, having been written 1911, but then, the history was a lot older, so it still covers the basics.)
Yup, and we're the only ones who got it right. Here are the facts---the Septaguint (the Greek version of the Jewish Scriptures) was the Bible that Christ and the Apostles used. Both Jesus and the Apostles taught from the "deuterocanonical books". AFTER the rise of Christianity, (and partly driven by that rise), the Jews decided to actually define their Canon. The criteria of selection were specifically chosen to minimize those texts that supported Christianity. So Luther chose a NON-CHRISTIAN canon over the original Christian one.
Why? Is Spirit not God?
So we ought not to judge others, as it says, especially with arbitrary rules and schedules
No, of course not. We should obey the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
I belong to his church in the right meaning of the word.
The Church of Darwin?
Please deliniate the comment in post 168:
“You earn it once with your life as you free yourself from sin.”
with you assertion now:
“I never said I saved or will save myself.”
“Like I said, start your own denomination. I am Catholic, I read what’s written.”
I’m attending a very well know and solid Baptist church, the pastor of which makes me look like a liberal Arminian. Thanks. “I read what’s written”?? What’s up with that?
I free myself form sin thanks to the boundless grace of Christ and not out of my own power.
Catohlics read and obey the Gospel. Every word of it. You mangle and lie about it.
Wasn't accurate? By who's definition and judgment and for what motivation? Been lead around by the nose all you life?
He knows that people are ALL fallible. If people are fallible and imperfect and subject to corruption, so will their institutions be, especially when they wield supreme executive power. That is where the rcc has remained since 393; a corrupt, greedy and power hungry political institution, lacking in the feeding of Christ's people and unable to guide them. The evidence is in the way the people conduct themselves.
Mary and saint worship...when Christ is our one and only mediator with the Father. What the heck are you guys thinking going to others when you can go directly to the main Man!? Why do you need a priest to confess....when we're charged to confess to one another!? You guys waste so much of your time on other heretical ‘holy’ acts instead of doing the one thing you were created to do....Bring glory to Christ in praise and worship in EVERYTHING you do.
The rcc has a very dark past. You need to open your eyes and see who you're blindly following into hell.
Let's see. Could it be the folks who compiled the Bible, and had preserved it intact since that time?? That would be the Catholic Church.
So, the folks who made up the Catholic Church in the first two centuries were able to look into the future and forsee the Protestant Reformation, and so included Maccabees just to stave off Protestant arguments??? You "do" realize just how stupid that notion is, don't you.
And as to the "..the Lord desiring a King over Israel...", Christ is acknowledged throughout Scripture as the royal heir to the kingly House of David.
"Mary and saint worship...when Christ is our one and only mediator with the Father. What the heck are you guys thinking going to others when you can go directly to the main Man!? Why do you need a priest to confess....when we're charged to confess to one another!? You guys waste so much of your time on other heretical ‘holy’ acts instead of doing the one thing you were created to do....Bring glory to Christ in praise and worship in EVERYTHING you do."
And you finish up with the standard Protestant lies about what the Catholic Church believes. I really don't believe that you were ever a Catholic, because you certainly didn't learn much about the Church while you were supposedly there.
"You need to open your eyes and see who you're blindly following into hell."
If you knew how much time and study I spent researching everything about the Catholic Church before becoming one... I can guarantee that my entry therein was anything BUT "blind".
Huh? Maccabees was written by and for and to Jews, who already had a hierarchical system.
Mostly it's about trusting in God in the face of adversity and trouble. I don't believe you've actually read it.
As far as the New Testament goes, the VERY early Christians had begun using what today is considered the New Testament. Then in 393 a group got together and canonized it. They also ADDED books into the Tanakh...the Hebrew Bible. Books the Jews NEVER considered scripture. Took Luther to undo that mistake. You have to ask yourself:
1.) At what point between approx 100 AD and 400 AD did the group that later became the rcc hijack Christianity onto a road that led to corruption, greed, heresy, debauchery, murder, intimidation, power hunger, and brain washing (the effects of the last can still be seen as evidenced on this thread)?
2.) Why did the rcc organization decide to overrule the Jews on their own Bible and inject uninspired works into it for us to digest?
REFERENCE:
“The term Hebrew Bible is a generic reference to books of the Bible, originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic, and of uncontroversial canonicity. The term closely corresponds to contents of the Jewish Tanakh and the Protestant Old Testament, but does not include the deuterocanonical portions of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Christian Old Testament.”
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Bible
“The writings attributed to the apostles circulated amongst the earliest Christian communities. The Pauline epistles were circulating in collected form by the end of the first century AD. Justin Martyr, in the early second century, mentions the “memoirs of the apostles,” which Christians called “gospels” and which were regarded as on par with the Old Testament.
A four gospel canon (the Tetramorph) was in place by the time of Irenaeus, c. 160, who refers to it directly.[14] By the early 200’s, Origen may have been using the same 27 books as in the modern New Testament, though there were still disputes over the canonicity of Hebrews, James, II Peter, II and III John, and Revelation (see also Antilegomena).[15]
Likewise by 200 the Muratorian fragment shows that there existed a set of Christian writings somewhat similar to what is now the New Testament, which included the four gospels and argued against objections to them.[16] Thus, while there was a good measure of debate in the Early Church over the New Testament canon, the major writings were accepted by almost all Christians by the middle of the second century.”
No, the rcc mafia at the time already recognized that this religion thing was profitable for obtaining wealth and political influence and Maccabees was included in an attempt to establish a theological foundation for this power base.
“And as to the “..the Lord desiring a King over Israel...”, Christ is acknowledged throughout Scripture as the royal heir to the kingly House of David.”
So you deny that the Lord was less than impressed with the Israelites desire to have a King instead of relying only upon the Lord for their protection?? Not good theology...pretty basic stuff. Depend on the Lord, not yourselves....sound familiar?
“And you finish up with the standard Protestant lies about what the Catholic Church believes. I really don't believe that you were ever a Catholic, because you certainly didn't learn much about the Church while you were supposedly there.”
Believe what you want. I've lived through the garbage. Praying is an act of worship. Why in the world would you waste even ONE second of prayer and praise time tying to interact with a dead created thing rather than lavishing it onto the Living God???!!!! Even I, at the ripe old age of 10 figured that one out, even mired in the heresy of the rcc. Proof that the Lord will protect His sheep, they know His voice, and not one will be plucked from His hand by anything. Thank you Lord!
Ok....your point? Christ was less than impressed with their ‘system’. Why would He want the Christians to adopt the same.
And the Apocryphal books were NEVER part of the Hebrew Bible.
Totally wrong. Christ and his Apostles used the Septuagint, which was in Greek. Almost a century later, the Jews got together and decided to re-define their canon by eliminating the books that supported Christianity, which canon became the Hebrew Canon. The RCC added nothing to the Old Testament that wasn't already in the earlier canon.
The RCC then proceeded to define the New Testament canon.
Are you making this stuff up?
1.) At what point between approx 100 AD and 400 AD did the group that later became the rcc hijack Christianity onto a road that led to corruption, greed, heresy, debauchery, murder, intimidation, power hunger, and brain washing (the effects of the last can still be seen as evidenced on this thread)?
The premise of your question is deeply flawed and laughably ignorant of history. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ, circa 32AD.
2.) Why did the rcc organization decide to overrule the Jews on their own Bible and inject uninspired works into it for us to digest?
The Bible was translated from the Septuagint before the explicitly anti-Christian actions known as Jamnia, when six books were deleted. The Bible proceeded from the Hebrew and Greek (with a touch of Aramaic) to all Greek to the Vulgate.
Praying to God is an act of worship. The verb "pray" means to request.
Good grief. I get tired of explaining "basic Bible" to Protestants. Yes, the Lord had originally inteneded for Israel not to have a king. However, once they decided that they wanted one---he provided a whole bunch, including David. The Lord also made a covenant with David that his KINGLY LINE would rule forever, which covenant was fulfilled by Christ, who was David's succesor King.
"Praying is an act of worship. Why in the world would you waste even ONE second of prayer and praise time tying to interact with a dead created thing rather than lavishing it onto the Living God???!!!! Even I, at the ripe old age of 10 figured that one out, even mired in the heresy of the rcc."
This kind of statement proves to me that you were never in the Catholic church. If you did, you would know that the Church does NOT teach "praying to dead created things". Firstly because the saints are not dead--they are in Heaven with Christ, and secondly, because the respectful admiration of Mary and the Saints is not prayer (even though some badly cathecized Catholics may use the term). Look up the words "latria" and "dulia". If you had been in the Catholic church, you would know these basic facts.
My error. Jamnia deleted seven books.
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