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Southern Baptist Pastor Leaves Everything for the Eucharist
Coming Home Network ^ | Jun 8th, 2007 | Andy

Posted on 05/01/2008 5:07:35 PM PDT by annalex

Southern Baptist Pastor Leaves Everything for the Eucharist

I grew up in a strong Christian home.  My parents were, and still are, two of the most devout Christians I have ever known.  They instilled in me not only the importance of knowing about Christ, but knowing Him personally.  When I was 10 years old, I pledged my life to Jesus and was baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.  My teen years were filled with opportunities for spiritual growth thanks to the encouragement and example of my parents and youth leaders.  When I was seventeen I dedicated myself to full-time Christian service.  At that time, I assumed my future ministry would be that of a pastor.  Therefore, I felt I needed a four-year degree in Christian studies and graduate studies in ministry.  My family was not in a position to send me to a four-year private school, much less an expensive one, but my trust was in God.  If He wanted me to be there, I believed, He would provide the means for me to get there.  In what I can only describe as a miracle, I was awarded a four year presidential scholarship and found a job as a resident assistant, which payed for all of my expenses.

In college, I experienced a profound conversion of sorts.  Having the opportunity to study under some of the brightest minds in the Evangelical world, I discovered a deep love for learning, especially Scripture, History, and Theology.  I became so enamored in fact that I quickly gained a reputation for being a know-it-all.   Unfortunately, I had earned that reputation with a head full of pride and a heart lacking in charity when it came to dialogue.  I should explain at this point that I was discovering that because of the charism of knowledge, study came very easy to me.  Things just seemed to be absorbed as if my mind were a dry sponge.  There is nothing wrong with that, except for the fact that I was not tempering my newfound knowledge with humility and personal piety.  This flaw would prove to be a major factor in my conversion.

I was so wrapped up in ministry preparation, language studies, and reading that I wasn't even looking for a woman.  That's probably a good thing, because while I was distracted, God was preparing my wife over in the ladies' dorms.  We met the summer of my freshman year while we worked at a youth camp.  It was as close to "love at first site" as I can imagine.  We took things slow and filled our non-work time with long walks, talks and Bible studies.  I knew very quickly that this was the woman God had chosen to be my wife.  We would be married less than two years later and begin our lives together. 

Life wasn't super easy for us as we were new to married life, new to bills, and new to pretty much everything else.  However, God helped us through our first years with few, if any, major problems.  We also learned the importance of health insurance after my face was broken during a pickup mud football game.  One thing we had been convinced of as a couple was that God was to be in charge of blessing our lives with children.  As such, we did not use contraception, choosing instead to practice the billings ovulation method.  Oddly enough, we were not the only ones at our Baptist school who felt that way.  As I neared my graduation, God blessed us with the news that we were expecting our first child.  Now I would be a father as well as a husband.  Apparently, there were more lessons for me to learn outside of the classroom.  In spite of a tough course load, three part-time jobs, and school related ministry opportunities; I still managed to graduate on time with a BA in Christian Studies and minors in both Greek and History. 

Seminary life was exciting.  We were gaining the reputation of being a magnet for top scholarship and theological soundness, which was something many Baptist affiliated schools could not claim.  Once again, my desire for knowledge had me taking difficult courses and loving every minute.  My professors were challenging my heart as well as my mind, and I'm forever grateful.  In fact, their example, along with that of my college professors, led me to pursue a future in theological education.  I believed that it was in the classroom and lecture hall that I would be most useful to God as a minister.  While I was gaining all this knowledge and continually fueled by a desire to become a great teacher, I was also letting my growth in holiness decline.  Daily prayer and Bible study became to me opportunities for lesson planning and sermon writing.  I was looking at the Bible for its academic properties and neglecting much of my spiritual encounter with God in the Scriptures.  Busier than ever, with a new baby, a new job, and with school, I was beginning to substitute activity for piety.  But I didn't notice my mistake.

What I did notice was that my denominational "constituents", for the most part, were historically and theologically myopic.  I vowed to myself that a major portion of my ministry would be to take Baptists back to the practices and beliefs of the Baptist founders, which, I believed at the time, to be synonymous with the beliefs and practices of the early Christians.  In order to prove this, and to prove the historicity and rightness of Baptist theology and polity, I decided to study the earliest Christian writing I could find in addition to the Bible, namely the Church Fathers. 

I had first met the Fathers in college as translation work in advanced Greek classes.  Translation of extrabiblical Greek texts honed our skills and eliminated our "crutch" of cheating on translations for which we had memorized the English scripture verses.  I first met Saint Polycarp and was so intrigued by him that I wanted to read more.  In seminary, I would read the writings of St. Polycarp, St. Clement, St. Ignatius, St. Irenaeus, and St. Justin Martyr.  My studies of the Fathers would reveal to me a sacramental Faith, a tangible Faith, a structured Faith, a faith that I was having trouble reconciling to my present denominational affiliation.  But my patristic studies would have to wait because shortly after the birth of our 2nd child, I had found a pastoral ministry opportunity to be an associate pastor of youth and education near my hometown. 

Church ministry was great because it helped force me back into the devotional practices I had been only weakly observing.  Aided by the forceful words of men like John Piper, Charles Spurgeon, and CS Lewis, I was challenged to adopt the principle of "incarnational" living.  I wanted the truth to be so ingrained in me that it permeated every portion of my life.  This proved to be my final undoing, but at the time, it was spurring me to make changes in my life.  Still, I held some things back from God, including my role as a father.  I was so busy studying and doing ministry work that I wasn't making time for the kids or my wife, so busy that I didn't even notice my neglect. 

In my studies, I continued to read the pre-Nicene Fathers of the Church.  The spiritual might I saw in these men showed me that I was lacking something in my life, but I couldn't place it.  What I was realizing, however, was that their Church and mine looked totally different.  They had an authority structure, bishops, priests, and deacons.  They had a liturgy that was rich in beauty and meaning.  They had sacraments, most especially the Eucharist.  It was the Eucharist that intrigued me most.  The more I read, the more I became convinced that Christ was not speaking figuratively in John 6 at Capernaum or in the Upper Room.  I was convinced of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, something we as Baptists did not have, but that I wanted.

What I saw in my future was a life as a Catholic, but that couldn't happen yet. I still had way too much ministry to accomplish.  I decided to shelve the "Catholic thing" so I could concentrate on finishing my work there.  I figured that after five or six years I could step down quietly and pursue my Catholic studies then.  I had no desire to cause a scandal.  In fact, to make sure no "papist" teaching came out in my ministry; I made a point to provide my senior pastor with copies of all my lessons and sermons before I taught them.  It was important enough for me to finish my ministry agenda before pursuing anything else.  In fact, I told no one about my desire to know more about the Catholic Church.  I studied on my own time, alone, to see if the ancient Church and the modern Catholic Church were one and the same. 

My search was very lonely.  There was no one I could talk to because if word got out that I was even considering the claims of the Church, I could easily have lost my job, putting my family in jeopardy.  I wasn't willing to risk that, even though I was becoming more and more convinced of the Catholic Faith.  After a while, I found myself going to Eucharistic Adoration at the Catholic Hospital during my hospital visitation rounds.  I set up appointments to talk with priests "under cover of darkness" because I had questions.  But I still had no one to share with.  I was alone and, quite frankly, terrified of what the future might hold.  

I stumbled upon the Coming Home Network almost by accident and was encouraged to find that there were other ministers like me who were asking questions.  I found two friends with whom I felt comfortable sharing my struggles.  One was a Baptist pastor, like myself.  The other was a recent convert from an Evangelical Free background.  They became my prayer partners and my sounding boards.  When I finally got the nerve to call CHN, I was encouraged by Jim Anderson, who not only talked with me, but also provided books and study materials to aid me in my search.  I thank God for the Coming Home Network.  I didn't feel quite so alone anymore.

Things continued smoothly, just as I had planned, until we had to travel to California for a wedding.  The wedding was beautiful and San Francisco was amazing, but something was not right with me.  God was pressing His thumb upon my heart and I noticed it.  The whole time we were there, I found myself in constant debate with Him over the state of my spiritual life.   The night before we were scheduled to leave, God had His final say with me in what I can only describe as an emotional confrontation.  He revealed to my heart, in no uncertain terms, that I was shipwrecking my life.  He clearly showed me that my heart was not with my wife or with my children, but with myself and my activities.  I was a shallow and selfish man who blamed his ministry for not having enough time to read to or play with his own kids or spend time conversing with his wife.  I was living my dream as a teacher, but I was failing to practice the very truths I taught.  I was living a lie and I had no excuses. 

I wept all night before finally asking God, "What am I supposed to do now?" 

"You're going to have to resign."

"But I don't want to resign."

"If you don't step down on your own, I'll remove you myself."

"What am I supposed to do for a living?  How will I support my family?"

"Trust me."

That was all I remember before crying myself to sleep.  It was a deep cathartic cry because my hard heart was finally seeing the message God had been trying to get through my thick skull for almost eight years.  He was trying to help me get my life together, not just my personal life and my family, but my eternal life and the eternal lives of my wife and kids.  I had to obey.  Yet as scared as I was, I had a calm peace that kept reminding me to trust God.  I didn't say a word to anybody about this or my decision until I was in the car with my wife, driving from the Memphis airport to our home across the state.  We were able to have a seven hour discussion of all God had been showing me.  I asked for her forgiveness and for my kids’ forgiveness, and I made a commitment to earn their trust and win their hearts.

I still had to resign.  There were no flashing signs or helpful books to guide me into the unknown.  However, I did find strength from my friends at the Coming Home Network.  I also found a job.  God was reminding me again to trust Him.  The resignation itself wasn't that hard, because I had the confidence that I was being obedient.  I was determined to be the man God wanted me to be and not to occupy a leadership position until I demonstrated true leadership and not mere academic acumen.

To shorten this story a bit, after resigning and relocating for my new job, I was able to meet with a priest for instruction and formation as a Catholic.  I knew that the answer to my spiritual hunger was the Eucharist.  On Christmas Eve 2002, my wife and I were received into the Catholic Church.  Since then, I have been growing, sometimes by small steps, but sometimes by great leaps.  Most precious to me are the Sacraments of the Eucharist and Reconciliation.  God has heaped His grace on me and I can see a change in my heart.  He has brought balance into my life.  He has saved my marriage.  He has reconciled me to my children.  He has also, a little at a time, allowed me to resume ministry, this time as a lay catechist and evangelist.  I still have my struggles, as we all do, but now I have something I did not have before, hope.  I have hope for the future and strength for today through the Eucharist.  God continues to teach me to trust in Him and to depend on Him.  Through the Sacraments, I continue to grow in my faith, hope, and charity. 

Believe it or not, folks, that was the short version.  God probably has reserved a crown for you in Heaven just for persevering through my tale.  I'm happy to discuss my journey with you, and I'd love the opportunity to pray for you as you search.  I'll leave this post with a closing comment. 

People have asked me, "Was it worth it?" 

Absolutely.

Last edited on Fri Jun 8th, 2007 10:32 am by Polycarp


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism
KEYWORDS: baptist; catholic; chnetwork; pastor; southernbaptist
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To: annalex

“Incidentally, I hardly ever see hostility to the community of faith that Catholic converts left; invariably, “

If we had a better search function, I could show you quite a few right here.


51 posted on 05/02/2008 12:11:11 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: Wonder Warthog; dartuser

“he only problem is that the “scriptura” can be interpreted many different ways (witness the many different understandings of same among different Protestant groups).”

But, but but...

Can’t the Church Fathers ALSO be interpreted many different ways???

Or did God supposedly give the Church Fathers the ability to write more clearly than the Apostles????

**********************

“”Sola Scriptura” is “sola stupid”.”

Great argument!

But tell it to St. Paul. He’ll disagree with you.


52 posted on 05/02/2008 12:16:45 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: annalex; Boagenes

“First, if Christ is there in the Eucharist and you know it”

Christ was sacrificed ONCE, not every Sunday. The Mass is no real sacrifice. Communion is a “rememberance” - not the real thing.

*********************

“Apocalypse 12 describes Mary in her body as a queen in heaven. “

Revelations 12 is not Mary. The Revelations 12 woman had pain in child birth - something Mary didn’t have according to the RCC.


53 posted on 05/02/2008 12:26:21 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: dangus; GAB-1955

“I once asked if anyone could name a prominent Protestant who had once been a Catholic.”

Dangus, what in the world does “prominence” have to do with anything???

“... or consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;”


54 posted on 05/02/2008 12:31:02 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: BaBaStooey
Every Catholic who questions the teachings of the Catholic Church and chooses to believe differently has left the Catholic Church for Protestantism.

In my experience, the three former Catholics I knew became agnostic or atheist in their beliefs.

55 posted on 05/02/2008 12:59:56 PM PDT by dan1123 (If you want to find a person's true religion, ask them what makes them a "good person".)
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To: PetroniusMaximus; GAB-1955
“You must be born again.”

This "born again" is baptism. However, baptized Christians at times fall away from the Catholic Church for a variety of reasons.

56 posted on 05/02/2008 1:13:22 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Boagenes
it is clearly tradition that was made up whole cloth by the Church?

Hey, to a Catholic, anything made up whole cloth by the Church is true and cannot be questioned. And plenty of apologists will twist the Bible into making it look like it was there all along.

57 posted on 05/02/2008 1:14:44 PM PDT by dan1123 (If you want to find a person's true religion, ask them what makes them a "good person".)
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To: annalex

“This “born again” is baptism.”

annalex, “born again” is not baptism.

Being “born again” is when a sinful person hears the Gospel and believes and the Holy Spirit enters their life and being and gives them a new spirit and a new heart.

From then on, that person want to love God and do what is pleasing to Him. And they only way they can keep doing that is by living is close fellowship with the Lord.


58 posted on 05/02/2008 1:22:53 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus
I could show you quite a few right here

Yes, I know. But here we have a forum designed for spirited exchange. I am not a convert from Protestantism, but I consider Protestantism to be a colossal theological error. Consequently, I express myself in a way that at times comes across as hostility. Of course, Protestants are not exactly shrinking violets themselves when it comes to their criticisms of Catholicism. What I am saying is that former Protestants who convert to Catholicism do not, typically, deny their former faith altogether, they just wish more converted with them. My wife, for example, often points out that Protestants believe what they do because their pastors teach them, and that their desire to find Christ outside of the Catholic Church is sincere and should count for something.

My case is easy since I converted from Orthodoxy, but likewise I have nothing but praise for the Orthodox Church and am very reluctant to criticize it, even when I think to myself that I could.

59 posted on 05/02/2008 1:24:51 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

***“”Sola Scriptura” is “sola stupid”.”

Great argument!

But tell it to St. Paul. He’ll disagree with you.***

It’s nice to see that not all Protestants claim to speak for God. St. Paul certainly is a step down. Can you show where St. Paul advances the notion of sola scriptura?


60 posted on 05/02/2008 1:25:52 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

***The Revelations 12 woman had pain in child birth - something Mary didn’t have according to the RCC.***

Can you show us where the Catholic Church says this?


61 posted on 05/02/2008 1:27:10 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: annalex

“What I am saying is that former Protestants who convert to Catholicism do not, typically, deny their former faith altogether, they just wish more converted with them.”

I admit, you would be in a much better position to know this than I. Outside of FR, I can’t really say I know too many protestant converts to Catholicism.


62 posted on 05/02/2008 1:30:47 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: PetroniusMaximus; Boagenes

The Eucharist is not a new sacrifice of Christ, but rather the same sacrifice of the Cross given us to partake of. The Catholic Church does not teach multiple sacrifices.

The woman in Apocalypse 12 is identified expressly as mother of Christ, and her motherhood is described in graphic, even physiological terms. It is of course true that Israel is a type of Mary, — or if you wish, that Mary is the high point and consummation of Judaism, so the connection to Israel can be made typologically. Likewise, given the hightened symbolism of the book, it is possible that the labor pains symbolize the groaning of the creation in Christ’s Advent.

The Catholic Church does not teach dogmatically that Mary was spared labor pains. It is a popular opinion, but it is not dogmatic, perhaps precisely because of the counterindication in Apocalypse 12.


63 posted on 05/02/2008 1:35:18 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
“born again” is not baptism

Scripture, please. I present the first few paragraphs of John 3 that define rebirth in terms of water and spirit, and not in terms of "hearing the Gospel" or anything like what you describe.

64 posted on 05/02/2008 1:38:39 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: PetroniusMaximus

Well, I certainly know that there are many people who, though culturally Catholic, lacked spiritual formation, and eventually converted to Protestantism. But I do believe it’s noteworthy that so many leading Protestant theologians and scholars end up going Catholic, very few Catholics have ever “learned so much about their faith” that they became Protestant.

Of course, I could certainly clarify that I was referring to modern times; Hus, Luther and Calvin were formerly Catholics


65 posted on 05/02/2008 1:40:40 PM PDT by dangus
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To: MarkBsnr

“Can you show where St. Paul advances the notion of sola scriptura?”

Can we first define “Sola Scriptura” as that the Scripture, by itself contains all that a person needs to know in order to be saved and to live a life of good works.


66 posted on 05/02/2008 1:43:42 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: annalex; Boagenes

Actually, I looked up that passage about St. Stephen. I found in the KJV that he was filled with FAITH, not grace. Further, the underlying Greek word is that translated as “faith,” not grace... it has nothing to do with “charito.”


67 posted on 05/02/2008 1:44:37 PM PDT by dangus
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To: Wonder Warthog

What makes the Church fathers interpretation better than anyone else who studies it? Answer: it’s not.


68 posted on 05/02/2008 2:01:28 PM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: annalex
When people leave the Church, it is because it is an ancient institution, and when they come to the Church, it is for the exact same reason.

So how do they know if they're coming or going?

69 posted on 05/02/2008 2:11:38 PM PDT by lonestar
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To: annalex

I would submit his calling to preach was not through faith but a selfish desire to please his parents and look pious.


70 posted on 05/02/2008 2:14:23 PM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: dangus

Ah, right, I remember now: “pleres pisteos” or something like that. I was going from memory, sorry.


71 posted on 05/02/2008 2:17:20 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Resolute Conservative; Wonder Warthog

The Church fathers’ interpretation is from a similar cultural and linguistic background. Further, they had access to oral tradition that we only know if it was written down — by them. St. Polycarp, for example, mentioned in the article, was a direct student of Apostle John.


72 posted on 05/02/2008 2:21:02 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: lonestar

If they want to be in the Church that Jesus Christ founded, they are coming, and if they want to please themselves, they are going.


73 posted on 05/02/2008 2:21:52 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Resolute Conservative

The author’s call to preach is not the issue here, his conversion to Catholicism is.


74 posted on 05/02/2008 2:22:38 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: dartuser
...by translating from the church fathers instead of the Bible.

Church fathers ARE the Catholic Church fathers. They wrote the Bible.

75 posted on 05/02/2008 2:24:19 PM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: annalex

I say his weak constitution about his calling was also manifest on his weak faith and thus he went on a “search” to make him feel better and found all the trappings and traditions of Catholicism made him feel sanctified.


76 posted on 05/02/2008 2:26:34 PM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: annalex

Which is still open to their personal interpretation when writing down said background. I know of many students who once away from their teacher demonstrate opposite beliefs and qualities.

I’ll stick with writings from people who actually were directly influence by my Lord when they transcribed what He said and His message for salvation is. I don’t seem to recall Jesus saying anything about endless saint worship, recitations, and traditions. He said He was the only way to the Father and whomever believed in Him would be saved. Period. That leads me to believe, based on His words, that He and He alone is my mediator to God and not a Vicar appointed by other men via a vote or accession or any other person. My salvation resides in my relationship with Jesus Christ and not anything else.


77 posted on 05/02/2008 2:33:38 PM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: annalex
I have a few questions about the immaculate conception... quite frankly, it seems like it was a fairly hotly debated topic until (even after?) it was declared dogma by the Pope in 1854.

In fact, it seems as if the push in Vatican I to recognize papal infallibility (outside of the agreement / approval of the church) was mostly to lay to rest this issue. I know that this was the big controversy of that council, my understanding is that a majority of American bishops were against it. Papal infallibility on issues with the agreement of the church, and papal infallibility as laid out in Vatican I are very different.

Being Anglican this is obviously a major point of contention that we have; we do not take issue with many of the traditional points that protestants have (confession, prayers to saints, etc). However, I personally think that the reason papal infallibility was used for the immaculate conception and the assumption of Mary is that it would be hard to get complete agreement on the issues otherwise.

I don't have a problem with people believing those things, I just believe that the evidence is such that the belief shouldn't be dogmatic. You should be able to be a Catholic in good standing without these beliefs. I understand the arguments on both sides, but they are based on reason.

If the popular praises of the Blessed Virgin Mary be given the careful consideration they deserve, who will dare to doubt that she, who was purer than the angels and at all times pure, was at any moment, even for the briefest instant, not free from every stain of sin? -- Pope Pius XII

I can go back and trace the arguments for both beliefs in early church writings, and there are some well reasoned arguments on either side. But there are many of church fathers that rejected the immaculate conception throughout the years.

Incidentally, I think the Orthodox do have an issue with the immaculate conception but not the assumption, although the later is not doctrine?

I am very interested in this issues as I believe this (and the apostasy in sections of my church) are the big roadblocks to reunification of the Anglican church with Rome. These are also clearly things that would prevent me from crossing the Tiber, and instead compel me joining a Continuing Anglican Church, if the Anglicans don't get their act together. I would very much value any insight you have.

-paridel
78 posted on 05/02/2008 2:38:37 PM PDT by Paridel
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To: Resolute Conservative

Based on what do you say that? He describes his academic gifts with he employed to study the Church history and which brought him to the Catholic reading of John 6 and the account of the Last Supper. Where do you see weakness of faith?


79 posted on 05/02/2008 2:38:57 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Petronski

Wrong. Bible ( NT anyways ) was written by disciples. They started the early church which was nothing like the RCC. There was no robes, confessionals, statues, talismans ( rosary ) and a hierarchy longer than the Presidential ascension list.

The stuff mentioned were thought of by infallible men who thought it would endear them to God instead of focusing on His Son.

God’s own Word says all you need is to believe in His Son and ask for forgiveness of your Sins to Him not any man.

If it makes you feel better to admit your sin to a man then power to you as long as you make it a point to talk to the Lord directly as He commands.


80 posted on 05/02/2008 2:40:22 PM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: Resolute Conservative
Bible ( NT anyways ) was written by disciples.

Yes, the early Catholic Church...right after Christ founded it.

81 posted on 05/02/2008 2:43:39 PM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: annalex

If he truly confessed and asked Jesus into his heart he had no need to search elsewhere to find earthly dogmas to make him feel “more” saved. I submit he was full of doubt and was only talking the talk and not walking the walk.

I have no doubt whatsoever that my Lord lives in my heart and I will be with Him when my time here is over. I feel no need to search any ancient writings other than my Bible for direction on how to live my life the way He wants.


82 posted on 05/02/2008 2:48:10 PM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: Resolute Conservative

Your question was why the interpretations of the Early Church Fathers is more important than, say, Luther’s of Spurgeon’s, and I answered. It is true that the fathers are fallible also, but they are the evidence of the deposit of faith left by Christ. They did not offer the novelties like rejection of traditions, rejection of human agency of the clergy or ignorance of the saints; in fact they strengthened the veneration of Mary and the saints.

The Church does not equate the patristics with the inspired scripture. As a body of thought they are invaluable in understanding what Christ taught the apostles, but some of their opinions do not fall within the consensus and then carry no particular authority.


83 posted on 05/02/2008 2:48:47 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Petronski

It was not the “Catholic Church” until after the first century and man took over and attempted to legalize Christianity just as the Jews did to Judaism in order to control men and garner power.

Find in the Bible where it is called “catholic”.


84 posted on 05/02/2008 2:50:44 PM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: annalex

Why is their interpretation better than mine? If I can rectify scripture against scripture than I am on solid ground. I find no basis for attempting to justify scripture on writings penned after the first century. They may help you gain knowledge to better base your findings ( and prove to be interesting ) but should not influence you one way or the other. You must read the Bible and allow God to work in you.


85 posted on 05/02/2008 2:57:13 PM PDT by Resolute Conservative
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To: Resolute Conservative
The Bible wasn't codified until the forth century. There were plenty of crazy ideas floating around before then, and the early church did a good job squashing them.

I am aware of very few groups (save Anabaptists perhaps?) that belief the Church fell into apostasy in the first or second century. I always felt early Christians were persecuted a bit too harshly for them to really attract those looking for political power?

-paridel
86 posted on 05/02/2008 2:58:34 PM PDT by Paridel
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To: Paridel; Kolokotronis

I don’t have any particular knowledge of the Vatican I issues. I know that Pius IX was motivated in great part by a desire to confront darwinism. It has been a popular belief for quite some time. I don’t think papal infallibility was invoked to proclaim the dogma, I belief the consensus patrem was reached on that.

The Orthodox have an issue with the entire magisterial system. Both Marian dogmas themselves are not a problem for the Orthodox Church. The notion that a belief that was not spoken about with a single voice by the Church of the first seven councils, could be clarified with such precision by the Latin Church, — is unsettling to them.

I am pinging Kolokotronis who can clarify this better than I can.


87 posted on 05/02/2008 3:02:18 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Resolute Conservative
It was not the “Catholic Church” until after the first century...

Ridiculous.

Find in the Bible where it is called “catholic”.

It did not become necessary to name the Church until the megalomaniacs started splitting off to start their own denominations (founded on the latest error).

88 posted on 05/02/2008 3:02:32 PM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: Resolute Conservative
If he truly confessed and asked Jesus into his heart he had no need to search elsewhere

What makes you think he did not ask Jesus into his heart? Where does Jesus recommend that we do not research history or skip over parts of the Bible that contradict Protestantism?

89 posted on 05/02/2008 3:04:47 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Resolute Conservative
Why is their interpretation better than mine?

I just got done telling you, see my 72.

90 posted on 05/02/2008 3:06:18 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
I am pinging Kolokotronis who can clarify this better than I can.

Thank you! One of my favorite things about Free Republic is that between our various resident experts we have complete knowledge of most topics.

I suppose I am somewhat hypocritical about these issues; because I welcome the Church coming down firmly on issue such as gay marriage and abortion. The strong hierarchy of the Catholic church has some definite advantages.

-paridel
91 posted on 05/02/2008 3:07:24 PM PDT by Paridel
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To: Resolute Conservative
If he truly confessed and asked Jesus into his heart he had no need to search elsewhere to find earthly dogmas to make him feel “more” saved.

I agree with you completely on not needing to be 'more saved'. However, there is more to a Christian walk than simply salvation. I welcome input from all sources on how to be a better Christian, be it from a Baptist, Catholic, or Church Tradition. We clearly need to vet all this information with scripture; but that does not mean it is not valid or good to look to other places.

There have been many strong men and women of faith in the past 2000 years, and we surely can learn from their teachings and examples just as well as from those of the apostles.

Thanks,
Paridel
92 posted on 05/02/2008 3:12:17 PM PDT by Paridel
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To: Paridel; Resolute Conservative
not needing to be 'more saved'

This is a way of thinking that begs more questions than it answers. In Protestant thinking (I don't know what the Anglican thinking is), salvation is what happens at the time a believer makes a decision for Christ. There are scriptural prooftexts for that view, however, it is not hard to find passages that describe the life of the believer itn terms of a struggle or a race, and call us to endure to the end. In light of that, and of course, in complete agreement with the Early Church fathers, the Catholic Church teaches that conversion is a lifelong experience of continually being saved in the process of sanctification, which leads, hopefully, to justification at the moment of one's death.

Here are two passages that treat this topic in a Catholic way:

We give thanks to God, and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you. 4 Hearing your faith in Christ Jesus, and the love which you have towards all the saints. 5 For the hope that is laid up for you in heaven, which you have heard in the word of the truth of the gospel, 6 Which is come unto you, as also it is in the whole world, and bringeth forth fruit and groweth, even as it doth in you, since the day you heard and knew the grace of God in truth. 7 As you learned of Epaphras, our most beloved fellow servant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ Jesus; 8 Who also hath manifested to us your love in the spirit. 9 Therefore we also, from the day that we heard it, cease not to pray for you, and to beg that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will, in all wisdom, and spiritual understanding: 10 That you may walk worthy of God, in all things pleasing; being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God: 11 Strengthened with all might, according to the power of his glory, in all patience and longsuffering with joy, 12 Giving thanks to God the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the remission of sins;

[...]

22 ... he hath reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unspotted, and blameless before him: 23 If so ye continue in the faith, grounded and settled, and immoveable from the hope of the gospel which you have heard, [...] 28 Whom we preach, admonishing every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.

(Colossians 1)

2 Grace to you and peace be accomplished in the knowledge of God and of Christ Jesus our Lord: 3 As all things of his divine power which appertain to life and godliness, are given us, through the knowledge of him who hath called us by his own proper glory and virtue. 4 By whom he hath given us most great and precious promises: that by these you may be made partakers of the divine nature: flying the corruption of that concupiscence which is in the world. 5 And you, employing all care, minister in your faith, virtue; and in virtue, knowledge; 6 And in knowledge, abstinence; and in abstinence, patience; and in patience, godliness; 7 And in godliness, love of brotherhood; and in love of brotherhood, charity. 8 For if these things be with you and abound, they will make you to be neither empty nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he that hath not these things with him, is blind, and groping, having forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore, brethren, labour the more, that by good works you may make sure your calling and election. For doing these things, you shall not sin at any time. 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1

No hint of once saved-always saved in these passages.

93 posted on 05/02/2008 3:35:42 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Always Right
I'm not pushing an anti-Catholic theme, and, for my money, there are plenty of Protestant churches that would be far and away worse choices. Heck, even the Southern Baptists had to fight a pitched battle for a long time to oust the apostates among them and purge the ecumenical types. If you'll recall, former President Jim-mah Carter left the SB church, too, after their reformation and wrote a public letter denouncing their lack of inclusivity, etc., etc., etc.

No, what I'm getting at is this guy's self-admitted and blatantly non-Scriptural approach to “ministry” and, by extension, the general prescription for family life and order that precedes “ministry.” For these reasons I do not find it surprising that he found fault in his faith and went looking elsewhere for “meaning.”

94 posted on 05/02/2008 3:48:13 PM PDT by WorkingClassFilth (Don't cheer for Obama too hard - the krinton syndicate is moving back into the WH.)
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To: GAB-1955

Almost everyone in my Baptist church came from the hollow Catholic ‘faith’...including me.


95 posted on 05/02/2008 3:52:01 PM PDT by griffin (Love Jesus, No Fear!)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
"Can’t the Church Fathers ALSO be interpreted many different ways??? Or did God supposedly give the Church Fathers the ability to write more clearly than the Apostles????

No, but the Church Fathers can shed light on those things the Apostles taught that DIDN'T get written down in Scripture. And it can aid in understanding those things they DID write down.

"But tell it to St. Paul. He’ll disagree with you."

St. Paul specifically denied "sola scriptura". Try another argument.

96 posted on 05/02/2008 3:54:25 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: annalex

“The Catholic Church does not teach dogmatically that Mary was spared labor pains. It is a popular opinion, but it is not dogmatic...”

But soon to become ‘tradition’ and then incorporated into the Hollllly Catechism!


97 posted on 05/02/2008 3:55:35 PM PDT by griffin (Love Jesus, No Fear!)
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To: Resolute Conservative
"What makes the Church fathers interpretation better than anyone else who studies it? Answer: it’s not."

Wrong. They were MUCH closer in time to the direct teaching of the Apostles, and had access to witnesses and documents we no longer have. Therefore, their perspective is virtually certain to be more accurate.

98 posted on 05/02/2008 3:56:13 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Resolute Conservative
“It was not the “Catholic Church” until after the first century and man took over and attempted to legalize Christianity just as the Jews did to Judaism in order to control men and garner power.”

You hit the nail on the head there. The RCC is only about power. Pay to have your relatives bailed out of hell. Have to come to church to hear scriptures read....no reading the Bible yourself! No! And if you try to translate one we'll burn you at the stake. Purgatory...Praying to Mary, and other so called RCC declared ‘saints’. None of which can be justified by the Word. Total power trip.

The Catholic church veered off the Christian path long ago and still tries to call themselves the one Christian universal church. That's like the Bolshivicks trying to declare themselves of the lineage of the Czars. I'm SO glad I got saved out of that hollow religion.

99 posted on 05/02/2008 4:04:04 PM PDT by griffin (Love Jesus, No Fear!)
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To: Wonder Warthog

“St. Paul specifically denied “sola scriptura”. Try another argument.”

Try to back that declaration up with scriptual references IN CONTEXT.


100 posted on 05/02/2008 4:06:59 PM PDT by griffin (Love Jesus, No Fear!)
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