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To: annalex
What I want to know, guy, is how you reconciled your longing for the Eucharist with also having to pray to Mary and saints.

How did you intellectually make the leap into ignoring the total lack of scriptural evidence, traditional evidence, or the use of simple reason and honest rationale to believe in things like the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary when it is clearly tradition that was made up whole cloth by the Church?

Until the day comes that I can chuck my conscience and reason out the window, I cannot cross the Tiber. This has been the single biggest stumbling block to ever becoming Catholic. I can't accept things that aren't based in Scripture or some real, definable, documented tradition of the very early Church fathers who had the closest ties to the apostles. Things that were made up centuries later, by men...sorry, that just doesn't wash.

43 posted on 05/02/2008 10:00:00 AM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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To: Boagenes
the total lack of scriptural evidence, traditional evidence, or the use of simple reason and honest rationale to believe in things like the Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary

First, if Christ is there in the Eucharist and you know it, then the rest should not really matter. Your question is like Nathaniel being surprised that the Christ came from the unlikely place of Nazareth. If that's where Christ is, and you are a Christian, that's where you go.

Second, what lack of evidence? "Hail full of grace" implies the Immaculate Conception very strongly; Apocalypse 12 describes Mary in her body as a queen in heaven. These are all ancient beliefs of the Church. The Orthodox do not have a problem with them (they have a problem with papal infallibility and with Catholic way of refining dogmas, but not with these Marian beliefs themselves).

45 posted on 05/02/2008 10:40:50 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Boagenes
it is clearly tradition that was made up whole cloth by the Church?

Hey, to a Catholic, anything made up whole cloth by the Church is true and cannot be questioned. And plenty of apologists will twist the Bible into making it look like it was there all along.

57 posted on 05/02/2008 1:14:44 PM PDT by dan1123 (If you want to find a person's true religion, ask them what makes them a "good person".)
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