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Vatican letter directs bishops to keep parish records from Mormons
Catholic News Service ^ | May 2, 2008 | By Chaz Muth

Posted on 05/02/2008 12:03:45 PM PDT by colorcountry

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To: TheDon
why are they then baptized for the dead?"

INDEED!

101 posted on 05/03/2008 4:35:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: TheDon
http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/oitm/issues/2005/05may2005/fea01_community.htm Learn MORE about Jeffery!
102 posted on 05/03/2008 4:38:52 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: P-Marlowe

INDEED!

More time in the tank;
less time at your door!


103 posted on 05/03/2008 4:40:23 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Texas_shutterbug

GMTA!


104 posted on 05/03/2008 4:40:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: wagglebee
Come back when you need more names.

What!?

Next they'll want SSN's to be SURE you don't get us all confused!

(Wait!! Does Abdul Asim Abudulla have a SSN?)

105 posted on 05/03/2008 4:42:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: colorcountry
They want to be teachers of the law, but they do not know what they are talking about or what they so confidently affirm.
106 posted on 05/03/2008 4:42:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: TheDon
It is a gapping hole in their theology.

Oh?

How?

107 posted on 05/03/2008 4:44:39 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: TheDon
It is a gapping hole in their theology.

Oh?

How?

108 posted on 05/03/2008 4:45:16 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: TheDon
It is a gapping hole in their theology.

Oh?

How?

109 posted on 05/03/2008 4:45:16 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: TheDon
 
We have the answers for that question.
 
But you DON'T for THIS one!
"Just what did Joseph Smith 'learn' to be UNTRUE about PRESBYTERIANISM?"
 
 
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19
  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
  18 My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.
  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, mother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother,
“I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”
 
 
 
 
 

110 posted on 05/03/2008 4:46:37 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: wagglebee
There is no longer any need for forgiveness in Heaven for all has already been forgiven, there is no possibility of forgiveness in Hell, so that means there must be a THIRD "world to come" where forgiveness is both still needed AND still available -- this is Purgatory.

LAZARUS found THAT out!

111 posted on 05/03/2008 4:48:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: restornu
Than I investigated the Church.

And you found out that the UNTRUTH of PRESBYTERIANISM was........?

112 posted on 05/03/2008 4:49:36 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

http://www.mountainpridemedia.org/oitm/issues/2005/05may2005/fea01_community.htm

Learn MORE about Jeffery!


113 posted on 05/03/2008 4:54:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

I guess it WAS working!


114 posted on 05/03/2008 4:55:11 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

“We were very fortunate to have two terrific people [apply] and Jeff rose to the top.”

ok....


115 posted on 05/03/2008 4:57:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Good news ping!


116 posted on 05/03/2008 5:10:16 AM PDT by NYer (Jesus whom I know as my Redeemer cannot be less than God. - St. Athanasius)
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To: Milly; colorcountry; bboop
Am i reading this correctly ‘I should not be saving anything to there site ?

It's a very clever ruse to get you to feed them information. My former boss is a Mormon 'bishop'. When I complained to him about this incidious practice, he said I could complete an official LDS form stating that I did not want to be baptized in their church. Now that's arrogance!

117 posted on 05/03/2008 5:28:41 AM PDT by NYer (Jesus whom I know as my Redeemer cannot be less than God. - St. Athanasius)
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To: colorcountry
Posthumous baptisms by proxy have been a common practice for the Latter-day Saints

Wow. The ultimate re-write of history.

This is just plain bizarre.

Surely if a person wanted to be baptized as an adult, he could have chosen, of his own free will, to do so.

118 posted on 05/03/2008 5:33:52 AM PDT by the invisib1e hand ("resort not to force until every just law be defied")
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To: Andyman; netmilsmom; Little Bill
But to make so many of these records unavailable to those who, for free, go to genealogy centers at LDS facilities is short-sighted.

Free? You are feeding them valuable information about the descendants of the ancestors in their registry. Regardless of your personal feelings on the topic of re-baptism, your relatives may not share those sentiments. Out of respect, you have an obligation to advise your living relatives that their names have been turned over to the Mormon Church which may use that information for religious practices.

119 posted on 05/03/2008 5:41:32 AM PDT by NYer (Jesus whom I know as my Redeemer cannot be less than God. - St. Athanasius)
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To: restornu

I think you mistakenly posted this to me.


120 posted on 05/03/2008 6:29:13 AM PDT by purpleraine
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To: colorcountry
I do not know for certain (not being a theologian or scholar of canon law) but I would imagine that a Catholic priest or other Catholic official cooperating with the LDS (by providing parish records) would constitute tacit approval or agreement with the theology behind their request.

In short, now that the Catholic Church knows what the LDS is doing with these records that avenue of research is forever closed to them.

121 posted on 05/03/2008 6:59:24 AM PDT by Oratam
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To: the invisib1e hand
Wow. The ultimate re-write of history.

How is hat a re-write of history? Posthumous baptisms, believe in them or not, HAVE been common practice for the Latter-day Saints since 1840.

This is just plain bizarre.

Okay you're in the non-believing category, but still doesn't change that they are and have been common practice for the Latter-day Saints.

Surely if a person wanted to be baptized as an adult, he could have chosen, of his own free will, to do so.

What of my ancestors that were born prior to 1840? I have my family history going back to 1450. That's about 400 years of ancestors that I know of that didn't ever have the chance to be baptized due to chronology of birth. What of those that never had a chance to be baptized or learn about my, or any other church for that matter, due to geography of birth?

Doesn't sound like to me they had any choice at all in the matter.

The LDS believe that even though the baptisms are posthumous the person receiving the baptism still has the choice to accept it or not even after death. If not accepted it changes nothing for them.

122 posted on 05/03/2008 8:05:37 AM PDT by Domandred (McCain's 'R' is a typo that has never been corrected)
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To: Grig

Grig,
I like you, but really didn’t think there is any
way to communicate how offensive the mormonism
practice of baptizing people of other faiths is.

I did my best to try.

This afternoon, in the privacy of my home temple,
I will name you and renounce your works for you,
using similar Masonic practices, just like mormonism’s
Masonic rituals. You will soon be freed from works
righteousness, which is false.

best,
ampu


123 posted on 05/03/2008 8:28:21 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: restornu

I am sorry, it really was a typo, but you have to admit an easily made one.


124 posted on 05/03/2008 10:00:18 AM PDT by EDINVA (Proud American for 23,062 days.... and counting!)
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To: NYer

That is horse poop, you got to be dead to be rebaptised and you have to have LDS relatives. In the main you have to be an Ancestor of an LDS member to qualify.


125 posted on 05/03/2008 10:37:43 AM PDT by Little Bill (Welcome to the Newly Socialist State of New Hampshire)
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To: AppyPappy; colorcountry
“Edith Miller, please report to the Mormon district”
“DAMN! Hold my drink, father”

Actually, she would have to say, "DAMN! The mormons won't let me drink at all...be back in a jiffy!"

126 posted on 05/03/2008 11:25:33 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Surely, they couldn’t get upset about this, could they? And perhaps they could then begin to realize how offensive it is when they purport to convert people who have died believing in a faith already.

Exactly!

Hey, let’s also make them wear pink underwear in the afterlife ...

And use wine in their communion service ;)

127 posted on 05/03/2008 11:30:26 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: Andyman
But to make so many of these records unavailable to those who, for free, go to genealogy centers at LDS facilities is short-sighted.

At the risk of being flamed, I have to ask..what actual GOOD comes out of all this genealogy research? Is it used to trace inheirited diseases or something? Of what value is the notion that your line can be traced back to Adam as I have seen claimed here? Really, I am curious.

128 posted on 05/03/2008 11:33:05 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: livius; colorcountry; P-Marlowe; Utah Binger; SENTINEL
But then that person is counted as a Mormon (by the Mormons, of course).

The dead aren't counted as members, however I'm sure that the mormon infatuation with statistics requires the tally be kept for some reason. I have heard that some names are being baptized over and over, and if the Catholics have cut off access to their records, that may become in fact necessary.

The LDS temple baptism for the dead has to keep going in order to give the members the initiative for temple attendance and coincidentally, keep the tithes coming in to insure temple worthiness.

129 posted on 05/03/2008 11:43:22 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: greyfoxx39
The LDS temple baptism for the dead has to keep going in order to give the members the initiative for temple attendance and coincidentally, keep the tithes coming in to insure temple worthiness.

If they stopped baptizing for the dead, then they would have no reason to go to the Temple and hence no incentive to be "Temple Worthy".

Well I guess they could always start a practice of "Marrying for the Dead".

130 posted on 05/03/2008 11:48:02 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: TheDon
While many christians do not believe baptism is necessary for salvation, for those that do, how do they reconcile the justice, mercy and love of God for His children who never had a chance to hear about Jesus Christ, let alone be baptized?

Perhaps if these dead were proxy baptized into Jesus Christ, and NOT confirmed into the mormon church and required to undergo OTHER proxy ceremonies before they are "worthy" of reaching the Heaven where God resides, your claim about "holes in theology" would be valid.

131 posted on 05/03/2008 11:58:36 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: P-Marlowe
Well I guess they could always start a practice of "Marrying for the Dead".

Gee, what an idea...perhaps you could suggest it?

132 posted on 05/03/2008 12:08:23 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: restornu
Msgr. J. Terrence Fitzgerald -- vicar general of the Diocese of Salt Lake City -- said he didn't understand why the Latter-day Saints church was singled out in this latest Vatican policy regarding parish records.

We are supposed to be surprised that the "vicar general of the Diocese of Salt Lake City makes such a statement??? ROTFL! Utah?

133 posted on 05/03/2008 12:22:08 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Do you believe baptism is necessary for salvation? If so, how does your faith answer the question?


134 posted on 05/03/2008 12:36:56 PM PDT by TheDon
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To: Little Bill
In the main you have to be an Ancestor of an LDS member to qualify.

TOTALLY WRONG!

Morbid Mormons: Since the 1990s the Mormon Church has been posthumously baptizing Jews and adding them to its genealogical database in Salt Lake City. But the Latter Dayers went too far when they baptized by proxy legendary — and dead — Nazi hunter Simon Wiesenthal, according to the Jewish Telegraphic Association.

The Simon Wiesenthal Center has called on the Mormon Church to remove its namesake from the church�s on-line database of posthumous baptisms, and to be quick about it.

Proxy baptism is a caring expression of faith that provides deceased persons the opportunity to accept or reject what we believe to be a blessing offered in their behalf.Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean of the Wiesenthal Center, made the urgent request after being informed by Salt Lake City researcher Helen Radkey that Wiesenthal�s name had been added about a week ago to the Mormons� International Genealogical Index.

�We are astounded and dismayed that after assurances and promises by the Mormon Church, Mr. Wiesenthal�s life and memory, along with so many other Jews, would be trampled and disregarded,� Hier said.

Wiesenthal �proudly lived as a Jew, died as a Jew, demanded justice for the millions of the victims of the Holocaust and, at his request, was buried in the State of Israel,� he said.

�It is sacrilegious for the Mormon faith to desecrate his memory by suggesting that Jews on their own are not worthy enough to receive God�s eternal blessing.�

Hier also urged the Utah-based Church to remove the names of all other Holocaust victims from the list.

Many Jews, including Holocaust victims, have been found on the index.

Mormon officials promised in 1995 to stop the practice of posthumously baptizing Jews, but did not. They reiterated the pledge in 2000.

Strangely, the Mormon Church is not just baptizing the Jewish victims of the Holocaust, it also has baptized the architect of the Holocaust — Adolf Hitler — as well as Hitler’s parents and his girlfriend Ava Braun. That happened back in 1993, as uncovered by intrepid researcher Helen Radkey. There has always been controversy surrounding the question of whether Hitler was Jewish, due to the fact that his father might have been illegitimate with an unnamed Jewish father, though most sources agree that there is no convincing proof he was Jewish. What authorities do agree on is that Hitler was afraid of discovering that he was a Jew, which was a driving force in his decision to pursue the Final Solution.

Apparently, the Mormons have been doing this kind of thing since the mid 1800s

Link

Perhaps cutting off the furnishing of Catholic names will be successful in stopping the practice for Catholics.

135 posted on 05/03/2008 12:37:46 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: TheDon; Elsie
Do you believe baptism is necessary for salvation? If so, how does your faith answer the question?

What question? The one on "You play defense for a while"?

136 posted on 05/03/2008 12:40:14 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: greyfoxx39

” Strangely, the Mormon Church is not just baptizing the Jewish victims of the Holocaust, it also has baptized the architect of the Holocaust — Adolf Hitler — as well as Hitler’s parents and his girlfriend Ava Braun. That happened back in 1993, as uncovered by intrepid researcher Helen Radkey. “

I guess this means the Mormon church thinks Hitler was just misunderstood, and wish him well. What else can this mean?


137 posted on 05/03/2008 12:51:23 PM PDT by rightazrain (Stop Obama/Clinton!)
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To: greyfoxx39
TOTALLY WRONG!

TOTALLY OUT OF DATE!

You left out the part that in part because of the Jewish controversy the new policy is that you have to be a direct descendant of the person you submit to be posthumously baptized. Previous it was just to stop posthumously baptizing Jews, the new policy is any ancestors must show direct lineage.

To be fair, there may be some areas that are less enforced then others. My area is most definitely enforced though.

138 posted on 05/03/2008 12:52:49 PM PDT by Domandred (McCain's 'R' is a typo that has never been corrected)
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To: greyfoxx39
"The LDS temple baptism for the dead has to keep going in order to give the members the initiative for temple attendance and coincidentally, keep the tithes coming in to insure temple worthiness."

...We thank thee oh lord for a profit...

139 posted on 05/03/2008 12:56:05 PM PDT by SENTINEL (SGT USMC....YOU NEVER HAVE TO MAKE EXCUSES FOR A REAL PROPHET !)
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To: greyfoxx39

I see no humor in this that is very borderline of you Foxx!:)


140 posted on 05/03/2008 1:10:54 PM PDT by restornu (This is a gift which one can accept or refuse!, I assure you the LDS are snatchers soul!)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Home temple? Come on, where is the sacrifice in that, where is the depth of commitment? You can do better than that.

Anyway, I hope it makes you feel better at least. I guess since you believe your ceremony will do me so much good you won’t need to come around here and spend so much time trying to talk me out of my faith. Perhaps you could spread this practice to other anit-Mormon posters. I think FR will be a much better place without so much contention.

As for ‘how offensive the mormonism practice of baptizing people of other faiths is’. It is 100% your choice to feel offended. All we do is offer people a choice they never had in their life, and we offer them that choice out of love. I will not apologize for doing that. If you want to get all bent out of shape over it, that is YOUR problem.


141 posted on 05/03/2008 2:34:40 PM PDT by Grig (I love animals... as long as they are not overcooked.)
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To: Domandred
How is hat a re-write of history?

A re-write of history is a creation of fiction. Like attributing a newly written book to Mark Twain. Like baptising a dead person.

142 posted on 05/03/2008 2:37:02 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (the lesser of two evils is still evil.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Maybe my five or six thousand LDS cousins lied to me. Me; I am a Calvinist, though of a Free Will type, I think that people who take retro Baptism seriously have a problem.


143 posted on 05/03/2008 2:50:27 PM PDT by Little Bill (Welcome to the Newly Socialist State of New Hampshire)
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To: greyfoxx39

It’s an honest question. Inquiring minds want to know!


144 posted on 05/03/2008 2:57:22 PM PDT by TheDon
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To: restornu
I see no humor in this that is very borderline of you Foxx!:)

I'm sure you can get the whole thread pulled just because it doesn't suit the mormon agenda, resty.

145 posted on 05/03/2008 3:08:50 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: TheDon

Oh, I’d rather get the thread pulled like you guys do than have a discussion.


146 posted on 05/03/2008 3:18:27 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Why did the thread on Jos. Smith’s sermon get pulled?
Very strange! Why would mormons be upset about one of his sermons?


147 posted on 05/03/2008 3:21:37 PM PDT by bonfire
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To: bonfire

They obviously have the power to shut down the discussion when it isn’t going their way.


148 posted on 05/03/2008 3:22:40 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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To: greyfoxx39

Like little kids. waaaaaaaaaaaaaa!


149 posted on 05/03/2008 3:24:29 PM PDT by bonfire
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To: bonfire

Wonder if they found some obscure telecommunications law?


150 posted on 05/03/2008 3:26:22 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (FLDS.... making babies with children because their God wants earthly bodies for spirit babies.)
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