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Why Evangelicals are Returning to Rome
CIC ^ | April 2008 | Bob DeWaay

Posted on 05/02/2008 2:09:51 PM PDT by Augustinian monk

Why Evangelicals are Returning to Rome

The Abandonment of Sola Scriptura as a Formal Principle

By Bob DeWaay

The February 2008 edition of Christianity Today ran a cover story about evangelicals looking to the ancient Roman Catholic Church in order to find beliefs and practices.1 What was shocking about the article was that both the author of the article and the senior managing editor of CT claim that this trip back to Rome is a good thing. Says Mark Galli the editor, “While the ancient church has captivated the evangelical imagination for some time, it hasn’t been until recently that it’s become an accepted fixture of the evangelical landscape. And this is for the good.”2 Chris Armstrong, the author of the article who promotes the trip back to the ancient church, claims that because the movement is led by such persons as “Dallas Willard, Richard Foster, and living and practicing monks and nuns,” that therefore, “they are receiving good guidance on this road from wise teachers.” This he claims shows that, “Christ is guiding the process.”3

Apparently, contemporary evangelicals have forgotten that sola scriptura (scripture alone) was the formal principle of the Reformation. Teachings and practices that could not be justified from Scripture were rejected on that principle. To endorse a trip back to these practices of ancient Roman Catholicism is to reject the principle of sola scriptura being the normative authority for the beliefs and practices of the church. In this article I will explore how modern evangelicalism has compromised the principle of sola scriptura and thus paved smoothly the road back to Rome.

New “Reformations” Compromise Sola Scriptura

Today at least three large movements within Protestantism claim to be new “reformations.” If we examine them closely we will find evidence that sola scriptura has been abandoned as a governing principle—if not formally, at least in practice. To have a new reformation requires the repudiation of the old Reformation. That in turn requires the repudiation of the formal principle of the Reformation. That’s where we’ll begin.

Robert Schuller and Rick Warren In 1982, Robert Schuller issued a call for a new Reformation with the publication of his book, Self Esteem: The New Reformation.4 Schuller issued this fervent call: “Without a new theological reformation, the Christian church as the authentic body of Christ may not survive.”5 He was apparently aware that his reformation was of a different type than the original: “Where the sixteenth-century Reformation returned our focus to sacred Scriptures as the only infallible rule for faith and practice, the new reformation will return our focus to the sacred right of every person to self-esteem! The fact is, the church will never succeed until it satisfies the human being’s hunger for self-value.”6 The problem is that Schuller based much of his self-esteem teaching on psychological theory and did not provide a rigorous Biblical defense of the idea. Thus his reformation was a de facto denial of the Reformation principle of Scripture alone.

For example, Schuller criticized the Reformation for a faulty doctrine of sin: “Reformation theology failed to make clear that the core of sin is a lack of self-esteem.”7 But Schuller does not discuss the many verses in the Bible that define sin. For example: “Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness” (1John 3:4). It is not hard to see that Schuller’s reformation constituted the abandonment of sola scriptura as a formal principle.8

In one sense, since Schuller’s call for a reformation based on self-esteem was made 26 years ago, one could argue that it never happened. Of course the idea of self-esteem is still around and taught by many evangelicals, but it never became the one key idea of the church. In another sense, however, Schuller’s reformation was broadened and transferred to others. In 2005 Schuller claimed the following as noted alumni of his institute: Bill Hybels, John Maxwell, Bishop Charles Blake, Rick Warren, Walt Kallestad, and Kirbyjon Caldwell. Bill Hybels himself credited Robert Schuller as a key person who influenced his ideas.9 Though Rick Warren disputes Schuller’s influence on his theology, he has carried forward Schuller’s idea of creating a church that meets people’s felt needs and thus attracts them.

But what interests us here is that Warren is now proposing yet another reformation:

And we've actually created what we call clinic-in-a-box, business-in-a-box, church-in-a-box, and we are using normal people, volunteers. When Jesus sent the disciples – this will be my last point – when Jesus sent the disciples into a village he said, “Find the man of peace.” And he said, “When you find the man of peace you start working with that person, and if they respond to you, you work with them. If they don't, you dust the dust off your shoes; you go to the next village.” Who's the man of peace in any village – or it might be a woman of peace – who has the most respect, they're open and they're influential? They don't have to be a Christian. In fact, they could be a Muslim, but they're open and they're influential and you work with them to attack the five giants. And that's going to bring the second Reformation.10

The problem is that solving the world’s five greatest problems as Warren defines them11 using anyone willing to help regardless of religion, cannot be justified on Biblical grounds. If sola scriptura were the formal principle in Warren’s theology, then he would provide vigorous, Biblical analysis using sound exegesis to ground his reformation on the authority of Scripture. But his teachings and public statements are not characterized by sound Biblical exegesis.

As I documented in my book on the Purpose Driven Movement, Warren’s reformation compromises sola scriptura in many significant ways.12These include the use of loose paraphrases that go so far as to change the meaning of various passages, the integration of unbiblical, human wisdom, serious misinterpretation of Scripture, and an unbiblical philosophy of ministry. Warren has an orthodox statement about the authority of Scripture on his church Web site. In fact, most evangelicals other than those who convert to Roman Catholicism do not overtly reject Scripture alone. But is it practiced?13

There is reason to believe that Warren’s reformation is the continuation of Schuller’s in a modified form. Warren has made finding one’s purpose the lynchpin of his teachings and practices. Finding purpose may not be identical to finding self esteem, but the idea is at least a first cousin. Also, both concepts derive their power from outside Scripture.

C. Peter Wagner

Another proposed reformation of the church is C. Peter Wagner’s New Apostolic Reformation. As I argued in a recent CIC article,14 Wagner sees the presence of apostles who speak authoritatively for God as the key to the church fulfilling her role in the world. He even speaks approvingly of the “apostles” of the Roman Catholic Church. Wagner and the thousands of apostles and prophets in his movement have shown as little regard for sola scriptura as any non Roman Catholic Christian group apart from the Quakers. So their reformation is a de facto repudiation of the Reformation. Their writings and messages show little or no concern for sound, systematic Biblical exegesis. If they were to adopt sola scriptura as a formal principle and rigorously use it to judge their own teachings and practices, their movement would immediately come to an end.

The Emergent Church

The third (if we count Warren’s reformation as a current replacement for Schuller’s) proposed reformation is that of the Emergent Church. In their case sola scriptura dies a thousand deaths. As we saw in the previous issue of CIC, Rob Bell denies it using the same arguments that Roman Catholics have used. The Emergent Church and its postmodern theology is noteworthy for being a non-Catholic version of Christianity that forthrightly assaults the type of use of the Bible that characterizes those who hold sola scriptura as the formal principle of their theology. The Emergent Church adherents reject systematic theology, and thus make using the principle impossible. For example, defending the doctrine of the Trinity using Scripture requires being systematic. I have read many Emergent/postmodern books as I write a new book, and each of them attacks systematic theology in some way.

The Emergent Reformation rests on the denial of the validity of foundationalism. Gone are the days when Christians debated the relative merits of evidential and presuppositional apologetics—debates based on the need for a foundation for one’s theology. Either one started with evidence for the authority of Scripture and then used the Bible as the foundation of one’s theology; or one presupposed the Bible as the inerrant foundation. But today both approaches are mocked for their supposed naïveté. To think that one can know what the Bible means in a non-relativistic way is considered a throwback to now dead “modernity.” The Emergent mantra concerning the Bible is “we cannot know, we cannot know, we cannot know.” Furthermore, in their thinking, it is a sign of arrogance to claim to know. For the postmodern theologian, sola scriptura is as dead and buried as a fossilized relic of bygone days.

So the Protestant (if the term even means anything today) world is characterized by reformations that have either rejected or compromised sola scriptura as the formal principle for their theology. No wonder few voices of concern are raised at Christianity Today’s proposed trip back to Rome to find beliefs and practices. Once sola scriptura has been rejected, there remain few reasons not to go back to Rome. If religious traditions can be considered normative, then why not embrace those with the longest history?

Dallas Willard Leads Us Back to Rome

The cover of the CT article reads, “Lost Secrets of the Ancient Church.” It shows a person with a shovel digging up a Catholic icon. What are these secrets? Besides icons, lectio divina and monasticism are mentioned. Dallas Willard, who is mentioned as a reliable guide for this process, has long directed Christians to monastic practices that he himself admits are not taught in the Bible.15 Willard pioneered the rejection of sola scriptura in practice on the grounds that churches following it are failures. He writes, “All pleasing and doctrinally sound schemes of Christian education, church growth, and spiritual renewal came around at last to this disappointing result. But whose fault was this failure?”16 The “failure,” according to Willard is that, “. . . the gospel preached and the instruction and example given these faithful ones simply do not do justice to the nature of human personality, as embodied, incarnate.”17 So what does this mean? It means that we have failed because our gospel had too little to do with our bodies.

The remedy for “failure” says Willard is to find practices in church history that are proven to work. But are these practices taught in the Bible? Willard admits that they are not by using an argument from silence, based on the phrase “exercise unto godliness” in 1Timothy 4:7. Here is Willard’s interpretation:

“Or [the possibility the phrase was imprecise] does it indicate a precise course of action he [Paul] understood in definite terms, carefully followed himself, and called others to share? Of course it was the latter. So obviously so, for him and the readers of his own day, that he would feel no need to write a book on the disciplines of the spiritual life that explained systematically what he had in mind.”18

But what does this do to sola scriptura? It negates it. In Willard’s theology, the Holy Spirit, who inspired the Biblical writers, forgot to inspire them to write about spiritual disciplines that all Christians need. If this is the case, then we need spiritual practices that were never prescribed in the Bible to obtain godliness.

Having determined the insufficiency of Scripture, Willard looks to human potential through tapping into spiritual powers: “It is the amazing extent of our ability to utilize power outside ourselves that we must consider when we ask what the human being is. The limits of our power to transcend ourselves utilizing powers not located in us—including of course, the spiritual—are yet to be fully known.”19 So evidently our spirituality is to be discovered by various means that are not revealed by God in the Bible.

If the Bible is insufficient in regard to the spiritual practices that we need in order to become sanctified, where do we find them? Here is Willard’s solution: “Practicing a range of activities that have proven track records across the centuries will keep us from erring.”20 This, of course leads us back to Rome. Catholic mystics spent centuries experimenting with spiritual practices without regard to the Biblical justification for such practices. If evangelicals are going to join them in rejecting Scripture alone, AGAIN they might as well not reinvent the wheel—go to the masters of mystical asceticism.

Willard admires the monastics and suggests that solitude is one of the most important disciplines. He says, “This factual priority of solitude is, I believe, a sound element in monastic asceticism. Locked into interaction with the human beings that make up our fallen world, it is all but impossible to grow in grace as one should.”21 If it is impossible to grow in grace without solitude, why are we not informed of this fact by the Biblical writers? In Willard’s mind sola scriptura is a false idea, so therefore God failed to reveal to us the most important way to grow in grace! Willard says that solitude is most important even while admitting that it is dangerous:

But solitude, like all the disciplines of the spirit, carries its risks. In solitude, we confront our own soul with its obscure forces and conflicts that escape our attention when we are interacting with others. Thus, [quoting Louis Bouyer] “Solitude is a terrible trial, for it serves to crack open and bust apart the shell of our superficial securities. It opens out to us the unknown abyss that we all carry within us . . . and discloses the fact that these abysses are haunted.”22

This danger was shown by the early desert fathers, some of whom came under demonic torment in their solitude. Before following people whose practices are dangerous and not prescribed in the Bible, wouldn’t we be better off sticking to the safe ground of revealed truth?

Spirituality for the Unconverted

The fact is that the various ancient practices of the Roman Catholic Church were and are not unique to Christianity. The meditative techniques that make people feel closer to God work for those who do not even know God. Thomas Merton (who is recommended by Dallas Willard) went to the East to find spiritual practices. They work just as well for those who do not know Christ, probably better. Many ancient Roman Catholic practices were invented at times when many illiterate pagans were ushered into the church, sometimes at the point of a sword. Those pagans were not exactly the type to search the Scriptures daily in order to find the things of God.

But why are literate American Christians running away from sola scriptura at a time when searching the Scriptures (especially using computer technology) has never been easier? On this point I am offering my opinion, but there is good evidence for it. I believe that the lack of gospel preaching has allowed churches to fill up with the unregenerate. The unregenerate are not like “newborn babes who long for the pure milk of the word” (1Peter 2:2). Those who have never received saving grace cannot grow by the means of grace. Those who are unconverted have not drawn near to God through the blood of Christ. But with mysticism, it is possible to feel near to God when one is far from Him. Furthermore, the unconverted have no means of sanctification because they do not have the imputed righteousness of Christ as their starting point and eternal standing. So they end up looking for man-made processes to engineer change through human works because they have nothing else.

Those who feel empty because of the “pragmatic promises of the church-growth movement” as the CT article calls them, may need something far more fundamental than ancient, Catholic, ascetic practices. They may very well need to repent and believe the gospel. Those who are born of the Spirit will find that this passage is true: “His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence” (2Peter 1:3).

Conclusion

Perhaps the best antidote to rejecting sola scriptura and going back to Rome would be a careful study of the Book of Hebrews. It describes a situation that is analogous to that which evangelicals face today. The Hebrew Christians were considering going back to temple Judaism. Their reasons can be discerned by the admonitions and warnings in Hebrews. The key problem for them was the tangibility of the temple system, and the invisibility of the Christian faith. Just about everything that was offered to them by Christianity was invisible: the High Priest in heaven, the tabernacle in heaven, the once for all shed blood, and the throne of grace. At the end of Hebrews, the author of Hebrews points out that they have come to something better than mount Sinai: “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel” (Hebrews 12:22-24). All of these things are invisible.

But the life of faith does not require tangible visibility: “Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen” (Hebrews 11:1). The Roman Catholic Church has tangibility that is unmatched by the evangelical faith, just as temple Judaism had. Why have faith in the once-for-all shed blood of Christ that is unseen when you can have real blood (that of the animals for temple Judaism and the Eucharistic Christ of Catholicism)? Why have the scriptures of the Biblical apostles and prophets who are now in heaven when you can have a real, live apostle and his teaching Magisterium who can continue to speak for God? The similarities to the situation described in Hebrews are striking. Why have only the Scriptures and the other means of grace when the Roman Church has everything from icons to relics to cathedrals to holy water and so many other tangible religious articles and experiences?

I urge my fellow evangelicals to seriously consider the consequences of rejecting sola scriptura as the formal principle of our theology. If my Hebrews analogy is correct, such a rejection is tantamount to apostasy.

Issue 105 - March / April 2008

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End Notes

Chris Armstong, “The Future lies in the Past” in Christianity Today, February 2008. I wrote a critique of Armstrong’s article here: http://www.christianworldviewnetwork.com/article.php/3174/Bob_DeWaay Mark Galli, “Ancient-Future People” in Christianity Today February 2008, 7. Armstrong, 24. Robert H. Schuller, Self Esteem The New Reformation, (Waco: Word, 1982). Ibid. 25. Ibid. 38. Ibid. 98. I wrote an article some years ago about Schuller’s self-esteem reformation: Robert Schuller, Your Church as a Fantastic Future, (Ventura: Regal Books, 1986) On pages 227, 228 Hybels testifies of Schuller’s influence. http://pewforum.org/events/index.php?EventID=80 page 16. [Accessed 8/27/2005] The five are spiritual darkness, lack of servant leaders, poverty, disease, and ignorance. Bob DeWaay, Redefining Christianity—Understanding the Purpose Driven Movement, (21st Century Press: Springfield, MO, 2006). My claim is that sola scriptura no longer serves as the formal principle of their theology in practice. This is seen whenever important religious claims (such as the need for a reformation) are not accompanied by rigorous, systematic, Biblical exegesis on the topic at hand. I say that because by implication, Scripture alone means that beliefs and practices are normative if—and only if—they can be shown to be Biblical. Binding and loosing have to be in accordance with the teachings of Christ and His apostles. Warren’s practice belies his statement of faith.

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue103.htm I critique Dallas Willard’s theology as taught in his popular book The Spirit of the Disciplines in CIC Issue 91: http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue91.htm Dallas Willard, The Spirit of the Disciplines, Understanding How God Changes Lives, (HarperCollins: New York, 1991). 18. Ibid. emphasis his. Ibid. 95. Ibid. 62. Ibid. 158. Ibid. 162. Ibid. 161.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; evangelicals; rome
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To: Petronski

“His Catholic Church remains”

No, unfortunately it doesn’t. What remains is men’s ideas about what Christ said.


51 posted on 05/02/2008 3:43:12 PM PDT by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: fishtank
Full disclosure, I was born and raised RCC.

With the incarnation, Jesus Christ came to us through Mary. An omnipotent God has no need of a "natural birth" to make Himself incarnate. And yet, He chose to enter this world through Mary's womb.

God does not do things arbitrarily, and because it was part of His divine plan that Christ come to us through Mary, looking to Mary should help us better understand our journey to Christ.
52 posted on 05/02/2008 3:43:13 PM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: swmobuffalo
No, unfortunately it doesn’t. What remains is men’s ideas about what Christ said.

Every Bishop, including the Pope - the Bishop of Rome - can trace his lineage to one of the original Apostles.

Is there another church that can claim this?
53 posted on 05/02/2008 3:45:23 PM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: swmobuffalo
What remains is men’s ideas about what Christ said.

For the moment, let's leave Luther, Cauvin and Zwingli out of it.

54 posted on 05/02/2008 3:46:34 PM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: swmobuffalo
First one founded by man, second one founded by Christ.

Which man founded the Catholic Church?
55 posted on 05/02/2008 3:46:50 PM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: mike182d

Fine.

Jesus was born of Mary.

But I don’t need to follow her, or pray to her, or to ‘believe’ in her.

She was a sinner who needed a Savior.


56 posted on 05/02/2008 3:48:40 PM PDT by fishtank (Fenced BORDERS, English LANGUAGE, Patriotic CULTURE: A good plan.)
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To: elpadre
The Episcopal Bishop of Pennsylvania (name unrecalled) publicly stated, “the Bible was written by humans, it can be rewritten by humans.” - or words to that effect. There is a lot of theological garbage being thrown around these days.

First, I agree that this is garbage, but there is something worth questioning here:

When did God or Jesus Christ tell the Apostles to write down an account of His life and include it into sacred scripture? When did God or Jesus Christ provide a list of what text and which letters ought to be added to the existing Hebrew canon?

Scripture obviously didn't float down from heaven. So, it was obviously written by men to some extent. On what grounds are we to believe these particular men over, say, the Gnostics who wrote the Gospel of Thomas?
57 posted on 05/02/2008 3:50:21 PM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: Augustinian monk

I think only those who are convinced that what the Catholic Church teaches is true should become Catholic. I honestly am dismayed that so many godly Protestants are being abandonded by their denominations. And yes I consider it abandonment when a faithful Christian is told that the Holy Spirit is doing a new thing and God now blesses homosexual behavior. Or that cow farts are a matter for Easter reflection. Or that Jesus is a vehicle to the divine. Or Baptism shall be in the name of the Creator, Redeemer and Sustainer. It stinks and it is heartbreaking for so many non Catholics to see their denominations becoming liberal social clubs.

I pray that all Protestants can find a church home where the Reformed traditions they hold so dear are preached and practiced. Where the only one glorified is the Triune God.


58 posted on 05/02/2008 3:50:26 PM PDT by lastchance (Hug your babies.)
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To: mike182d

“Every Bishop, including the Pope - the Bishop of Rome - can trace his lineage to one of the original Apostles.”

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

And I would imagine that the original Apostles are rolling in their graves given what their “descendents” have elaborated on.


59 posted on 05/02/2008 3:52:05 PM PDT by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: fishtank
But I don’t need to follow her, or pray to her, or to ‘believe’ in her.

No one said you had to. But if your pursuit is knowledge of Christ, who knows more about a child, or has a more intimate relationship with them, than their mother?
60 posted on 05/02/2008 3:52:10 PM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: swmobuffalo
And I would imagine that the original Apostles are rolling in their graves given what their “descendents” have elaborated on.

Are you denying that the first Apostles appointed successors?
61 posted on 05/02/2008 3:52:59 PM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: mike182d

“Which man founded the Catholic Church?”

Men and it evolved over time. Nowhere in the New Testament is there scripture for the bloated bureaucracy that is the Catholic Church.


62 posted on 05/02/2008 3:53:47 PM PDT by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar

OK...So we won't call it Sola Scripture...We'll call it God's words only...And there it is in black and white...

63 posted on 05/02/2008 3:54:10 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Petronski

“For the moment, let’s leave Luther, Cauvin and Zwingli out of it.”

You brought them up, I didn’t.


64 posted on 05/02/2008 3:54:20 PM PDT by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: Petronski

The RCC adds burdens on people, claiming they are from God. That’s what Proverbs is warning against, not merely adding the Bible itself. This is what Paul warned against in Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.


65 posted on 05/02/2008 3:55:20 PM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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To: Augustinian monk
The “ancient Church” was also a primitive Church, equipped by the Spirit of God with spiritual gifts and a complete theology to produce good works according to the will of God and to overcome sin, self and the world. It was completely devoid of the lavish rituals and mind-numbing, evolving protocol which epitomizes the Catholic Church in all its manifestations through the ages. This is my major beef with Catholicism - besides the overt Marianism, doctrines of purgatory, Papal infallibility, etc. If the early, primitive Church was complete and equipped with all it needed, all additions are superfluous dross. That goes for Protestant inventions as well as Catholic.
66 posted on 05/02/2008 3:55:21 PM PDT by fwdude
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To: Lord_Calvinus

You be so right. Sometimes I forget with whom I am attempting to reason.


67 posted on 05/02/2008 3:55:52 PM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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To: swmobuffalo
Men and it evolved over time.

Which men? If the world's largest - well, second largest thanks to the rise of Islam - is contrived by men, surely there must be an historical account of its founding?
68 posted on 05/02/2008 3:56:20 PM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
The RCC adds burdens on people, claiming they are from God.

Nothing that leads one closer to God is a burden.
69 posted on 05/02/2008 3:58:50 PM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg
The RCC adds burdens on people, claiming they are from God.

Absolutely not.

70 posted on 05/02/2008 4:00:08 PM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: swmobuffalo

No, you brought them up when you said “men’s ideas about what Christ said.”


71 posted on 05/02/2008 4:01:05 PM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: Lord_Calvinus

“Funny that you didn’t mention Christ when you put together your list for getting into heaven. I would think that would be the sole thing on a “list.”

Why would I have to mention Jesus? He founded the Church. What other reason would there be for it.

I live Jesus Christ. He lives in me.

BTW, I don’t presume to say who gets into heaven or is consigned to hell.

That is God’s judgment and God’s alone.


72 posted on 05/02/2008 4:03:31 PM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: Augustinian monk
Once sola scriptura has been rejected, there remain few reasons not to go back to Rome. If religious traditions can be considered normative, then why not embrace those with the longest history?

Indeed!

73 posted on 05/02/2008 4:07:07 PM PDT by papertyger
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To: Iscool
We'll call it God's words only

That command is not in the Bible either.
74 posted on 05/02/2008 4:13:36 PM PDT by mike182d ("Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?")
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To: Petronski

Very entertaining, thank you.


75 posted on 05/02/2008 4:15:32 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: mike182d
That command is not in the Bible either.

Add not to God's words does not mean God's words only???

Did you go to the same school as Bill Clinton???

76 posted on 05/02/2008 4:36:50 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: mike182d
Shouldn't the larger issue for the author be that when Protestants research the first thousand years of Christianity, they do not find any trace of their core beliefs?

Not so fast:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1903505/posts
77 posted on 05/02/2008 4:38:04 PM PDT by armydoc
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To: Lord_Calvinus

“Incorrect. It was the Holy Spirit that closed the canon of Scripture. The Church only acknowledge what God had already done. To declare the Church to have CLOSED the canon is to declare that MEN told God to shut up.”

No, correct. The Catholic Church would naturally say that the Holy Spirit spoke through man in closing Gospels, as well. But it would also say that it did so as God’s chosen Church on earth through Peter. I would ask if you’re going to subscribe to the idea of sola scripture why you accept the canon as is on a completely non-scriptural basis. Or why you accepted that it was the Holy Spirit who closed said scripture without a scriptural basis.

I suppose you could argue that in unveiling His plan to man, God would have things move smoothly, but that’s not exactly the pattern of the Old Testament.

Futher, it is the Catholic Church that keeps and places a large empahsis on the ongoing account of the revelation of God to man on earth through time—not the Protestant faiths. Who has told God to shut up? Or rather, who has wholly internalized His message as opposed to elevating it as an example perpetuated through time (not as scripture, mind you)?

“If you think that Sola Scriptura is a validation of the Catholic Church, then you have absolutely NO idea what Sola Scripture is.”

No, you fail to deal with the reality that it was the doctrines of the Church, starting with the Council of Nicea, that ultimately closed scripture. By acknowleging their work as holding authority, you validate the work of the Catholic Church. The fact that the Holy Spirit moved these councils to act in this way has little bearing on the weight of the argument at all. If anything, the general acceptance by society at large validates work done through the Church. That doesn’t mean God doesn’t work through individuals by any means, but the official decrees of the leaders in Church council finalized matters as far as Christian society was concerned.

” If you wish to complain that no scripture is being written, then complain to the Catholics. You are the one who stated they closed them.”

I made no such comments regarding scripture and would not.


78 posted on 05/02/2008 4:43:38 PM PDT by CaspersGh0sts
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To: Augustinian monk
...wouldn't we be better off sticking to the safe ground of revealed truth? ... But why are literate American Christians running away from sola scriptura at a time when searching the Scriptures (especially using computer technology) has never been easier?

Because we have discovered this supposedly "safe ground of revealed truth is actually the barren ground of private interpretation.

79 posted on 05/02/2008 5:06:56 PM PDT by papertyger
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To: Petronski
Well, maybe, or maybe not. Guy relies entirely too much on Rick Warren and Schuler ~ hardly the core of modern Protestant thought.

My own thought on the matter is that a return to the First Century church would be a good idea ~ if only to meet up with the Campbellites.

Still, nothing this guy wrote dealt at all with the major challenge to the old church (aka Catholic) and the newer church (aka Protestant), and that's the even newer church (aka Pentecostal).

It's pretty obvious those guys have been selected to provide the next large army of Christian martyrs as they take on Islam. It's like God is simply ignoring the offerings of the "feel good" branches of Christianity.

80 posted on 05/02/2008 5:14:56 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Augustinian monk

Why, Hinn and Robertson are not Presbyterians ~ not even independent Presbyterians?


81 posted on 05/02/2008 5:17:55 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Iscool
lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar...

I sure don't see God reproving the Catholic Church, nor it being found a liar...therefore you are misapplying the Scripture ;o)

82 posted on 05/02/2008 5:18:41 PM PDT by papertyger
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To: Lord_Calvinus; sean327
It's more like the clergy who make up the Catholic church are stuck in some sort of "missionary mode", and have waited entirely too long to cut loose the Christians they've found to handle the church's more stable affairs.

Only reason to say that is to note that many Protestant denominations have found themselves having to create a missionary group organized pretty much like a Catholic church. It's some sort of inescapable model.

It's not that Catholics aren't Christians ~ they've simply not figured out how to organize themselves and "do church" on their own.

The purpose of Protestantism is simply to test out an almost infinite variety of ways Christians might well (or can) organize to do God's work. (Not at all surprising God would allow infinite varieties). Slowly but surely Catholics are catching on ~ even if only for a designated lay person to carry the host to a shut-in on Sunday.

83 posted on 05/02/2008 5:26:02 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

That’s an interesting perspective. I’m genuinely glad to read it.


84 posted on 05/02/2008 5:27:20 PM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: Augustinian monk; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; ...
Eventually, all roads lead to Rome.

Catholic Ping List
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


85 posted on 05/02/2008 5:29:02 PM PDT by NYer (Jesus whom I know as my Redeemer cannot be less than God. - St. Athanasius)
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To: mike182d
Uh, the Cathers did. The Menonites do. The Armenian church does as well as the ancient Christian church in India.

Claiming descent from an apostle is a common element in the older model Christian churches. The newer models dispense with finding it a necessity ~ particularly those who claim the special guidance of the Holy Spirit.

86 posted on 05/02/2008 5:33:23 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: fishtank
Minor difference I'm sure, but Mary's birth was foretold in prophecy.

From the very foundation she was/is a special category person. Although I don't agree with the Catholic church in the way it goes about dealing with this special situation I'm not in a position to offer any substitute for them beyond noting that her existence was prophesied. Mine wasn't. Yours wasn't. Doggone near nobody for the last 2000 years was. Hers was.

87 posted on 05/02/2008 5:36:21 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

Is there a special way to do a tracing back to an apostle when looking into the histories of church communites?


88 posted on 05/02/2008 5:55:26 PM PDT by Biggirl (A biggirl with a big heart for God's animal creation, with 4 cats in my life as proof. =^..^=)
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To: Augustinian monk; Gamecock

So protestants are abandoning the extra-scriptura tradition of sola scriptura, while some protestants are arguing to maintain the reformation tradition of sola scriptura.

How ironic...


89 posted on 05/02/2008 6:15:26 PM PDT by Huber (And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. - John 1:5)
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To: Augustinian monk; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

90 posted on 05/02/2008 6:18:58 PM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
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To: Biggirl
Pray a lot.

Problem is that many of the folks in the standard lists have a reality equivalent to that of the earliest Japanese Emperors (during the same periods).

They didn't exist, or if they did, their existence was inferred by those living at some remove.

Remember, during the Dark Ages most of your written material ended up on the cabin fireplace.

It is not possible to prove or disprove Apostolic succession ~ so I don't worry about it. I also do not believe in faith-healing!

91 posted on 05/02/2008 6:23:20 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: OpusatFR

Pray that he puts the words into practice and deed.


92 posted on 05/02/2008 7:40:01 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: fishtank

She was a sinner who needed a Savior.

Wrong wrong wrong.

The Angel Gabriel announced to the world “Hail Full of grace”.

And the kecharitomene is the past perfect form meaning ALWAYS full of grace.

You cannot have always been full of grace and be a sinner.

Lurking’


93 posted on 05/02/2008 7:42:00 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Catholics=John 6:53-58 Everyone else=John 6:60-66)
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To: fishtank

She was a sinner who needed a Savior.

Wrong wrong wrong.

The Angel Gabriel announced to the world “Hail Full of grace”.

And the kecharitomene is the past perfect form meaning ALWAYS full of grace.

You cannot have always been full of grace and be a sinner.

Lurking’


94 posted on 05/02/2008 7:42:04 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Catholics=John 6:53-58 Everyone else=John 6:60-66)
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To: Lord_Calvinus
...a lot of Catholics who went into the ground that woke up in heaven EX-Catholics.

lol. Amen. Too bad some will wait that long.

However, better late than never. 8~)

95 posted on 05/02/2008 7:43:25 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: muawiyah
and what is the standard list of succession of your sect, splinter, or schismatic group???

How long is the OLDEST member of your splinter? 500 years??

Yeah I'm sure that some of the “traditions” in your “church” are all of two weeks old.

And during the Dark Ages the sola scripture you guys count on was preserved by the monks and religious working under the direction of Rome.

It must really frost your cookies that Catholic saints like Jerome and Catholic monks in Catholic monasteries preserved what did come down to your sect.

Almost any documents which passed through the Dark Ages were almost certainly preserved by the Catholic Church.
Lurking’

96 posted on 05/02/2008 7:49:53 PM PDT by LurkingSince'98 (Catholics=John 6:53-58 Everyone else=John 6:60-66)
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To: LurkingSince'98
It must really frost your cookies that Catholic saints like Jerome and Catholic monks in Catholic monasteries preserved what did come down to your sect.

Must really frost your cookies that Jews preserved 2/3rd's of your writings 1500 years before your tradition existed.

97 posted on 05/02/2008 7:54:34 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan

bump


98 posted on 05/02/2008 8:01:22 PM PDT by pgkdan (Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions - G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Must really frost your cookies that Jews preserved 2/3rd's of your writings 1500 years before your tradition existed.

LOL

I didn't know you'd been let back after your previous unforgivable anti-Catholic slur.

Catholics thank God for the profound gifts of the Old Testament.

99 posted on 05/02/2008 8:16:51 PM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: CaspersGh0sts
Modern day Protestants are so eclectic and disorganized that they couldn’t decide on scripture, anyway.

I have no problem understanding God’s word and I don’t need the pope to think for me.

Scripture says: “However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.” John 16:13.

“Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.” Matthew 18:19-20.

100 posted on 05/02/2008 8:22:09 PM PDT by e.Shubee
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