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To: FourtySeven
This concept is what continues to strengthen my resolve with regards to the Church. For, I reason, if there is a God who created me, and if He wants me to follow Him, the BEST way to follow Him is to follow Him the way He created me, through my HUMANITY. That is, why would God create me human, but yet not want me to be human?

So there's your first mistake...You are using man's widsom, not Gods...

You want to follow God thru your HUMANITY...It's a pity they brain-washed you into rejecting what God says about it...

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

NOT the flesh...Maybe you guys don't understand that...

Your HUMANITY can not follow God...It will not follow God...

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

The Apostle Paul (and Peter) couldn't follow God in their HUMANITY, how in the world do you thing you guys can do it???

34 posted on 05/13/2008 10:15:23 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: Iscool

Those verses you quote don’t contradict what I’m proposing at all, really. For example, Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

In spirit, and in truth. “Reason”, is the search for truth.

Similarly for the passage from Romans. Here St. Paul describes how he does things he knows to be wrong. He *knows*, to be wrong. How does he *know* these things are wrong? Certainly from the gift of faith, however, this gift from God must be a fact to him, or else it would be a fantasy, not able to convince him that what he does on occasion really *is* wrong. This fact is probably, at least one aspect, his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus. However, this only points to the need for a fact (or facts) to base our faith upon, for all of us. That is, unless one believes St. Paul is somehow different than us, somehow, not human.

Facts can be derived from either direct experience or indirect experience (that is, through the witness of another). However, to truly separate fact from fiction using the latter method, “reason” is required. One cannot separate fact from fiction, based on the witness of others, if one does not apply reason.

So, what we have is a need for a fact (from the passage in Romans), but the only way to obtain such fact today (normally speaking) is through indirect knowledge. (unless one actually does encounter Christ physically, in some kind of miracle, like happened to Saul).

This is how I respond to your reply. Basically however, what you’re saying in your post to me is also, that when God created humans, He made a mistake. Or, the only other thing you can say is, that our ability to reason is a result of the curse of the Fall. That is, our ability to reason is a curse.

Pretty contradictory to Scripture, both thoughts really, since Scripture exhorts us to always be ready with a reason for our faith, and also, to strive for maturity in it. How can we strive to be mature in our faith, if we reject reason? We are to expect that God is just going to somehow “zap us” into maturity, with no cooperation and/or action on our part?

Ok! I’m still waiting for that magical zap from Heaven. Of course, what I’m waiting for is something that’s going to change me from a human being (something capable of independent reason) into a robot.

41 posted on 05/13/2008 10:45:23 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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