The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.

The only think I would pick at there is "(of whole cloth.)"

But it IS of whole cloth. There is very little evidence asserting a co-equal trinity, and there is MUCH evidence available to dissenters...

(NOTHING makes life more delightful than the cat puking on the rug when one is trying to condense the history of Trinitarian thought up to Nicea into a paragraph, believe me ...)

Try this: Leap up, run around the room at least twice (to get breathless), throwing your arms up over your head in panic as you flee the room, while shouting the magic word, followed by the problem: WIFE!! CAT PUKE!!!

When you return, the cat-puke fairy will have come and removed all traces... It's almost miraculous...

Sometimes, if your quick enough (like when the cat first starts it's huck-motor), the entire cat may be mysteriously removed without having puked at all! Never fear, though... The cat is not gone for good... it will reappear sometime later, being in perfect health.

You will have to take your actual wife out to dinner, or something, for using her title to invoke the cat-puke fairy - it is an unfortunate coincidence that the magic word just happens to be "WIFE," which invariably causes the actual wife to become inordinately angry for some reason (mine seems to guard that title vociferously)... thus some pittance must be paid to placate her... But in the end, it is well worth it.

I think the 'teachers' (whoever they were) of the early Church were struggling to hold in their minds the ringing declaration of the Shema AND, for just one example, Thomas's "Ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου."

Thanks for putting quotes around those scribbely marks. It made it SO much easier when feeding them into my search engine to decode their meaning...

Just because opposing statements exist, one need not make something up to explain the opposing parts - Evidence is required. As far as the evidence is presented is likely as far as one should go... To do otherwise is to invite blasphemy.

Was Thomas blaspheming? Was he wrong? Was Jesus NOT God or was he a demigod, a created being? Or when he said, "I and the father are one," how should that be taken, especially in the context of, say, John,5:19 — Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing; for whatever he does, that the Son does likewise...."

The fact of the matter is this: WE DON'T KNOW. We have no idea wrt the mechanics involved within the Godhead... So we shouldn't define try to them. The lion's share of those who follow the Nazarene, from Messianic Judaism all the way through Protestants and Rome/Orthodox, do not deny the divinity of the Father, the Son, or the Holy Ghost, which we DO have proof for. What IS divisive is the manner in which that divinity is ordered.

Those who would prefer an hierarchical order within the Godhead - a position which seems much easier to prove by the Book - are ostracized and removed from within the general Christian sphere, even though their position is opinioned upon evidences equally as strong (if not more so) as the trinitarian view. What hubris allows no dissent?

And others (like myself), who believe the Torah to be irrevocable, and that it must be reconciled within the proper view of the New Covenant, are trying to return to the historical description of YHWH (because YHWH said, and Christ said...). Such as these are laughed out of the park, even thought they are relying upon the direct declaration of the Father. It_is_Impossible for the conclusion to be any other.

It occurs to me that "settled" doctrine should not be settled, unless the evidence is overwhelmingly direct. Sola-scriptura dictates such a position, as does common sense.

The Father set forth His "metaphors." He has declared the means and methods. Why must we forever try to color outside of those lines? One can say that the entirety of scripture points to Christ, but many seem to forget: Christ inerrantly points to the Father ALONE.

This describes the final solution to the problem... the very end game:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

(e-Sword:KJV)

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