When you submit your will and intellect to the Magisterium you become a
happy robot.
Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
Including Free Will. Run and tell the Calvinists.
Wait a minute. I have to collect myself here.
If I don't spend an hour or so on dial-up looking through interminable posts of outraged Protestants you will be "forced to conclude" something bad about me?
I'm sorry. I just can't function under such pressure. I'm all verklempt. I'd better go worship the Shiksa Lady Mary and compose myself.
While I'm doing that, do please think up some reasons why I should care about what you are "forced to conclude".
How dreadful to have one's thoughts forced upon one! For freedom Christ has set you free!
What a wonderful mind and great language skills you have.
Actually, I didn’t get per se into inner heart motives and mind stuff.
TO ME
the words/phrases themselves IN SUCH A CONTEXT
are inherently blasphemous.
Honestly, MD, once I detached myself—fairly early on—from my mother’s biases and crazinesses in viewing folks of other faiths . . . I really gave RC’s a pretty clean slate in terms of my perspective on their religiosity.
I’ve seen plenty evidence of RC idolatry overseas.
But the most intense, fierce examples have been observed right here on FR, imho.
And I really do feel as strongly towards any hint of such in Pentecostal circles. It’s just far less frequent, less overt and less intense, imho.
Well forgive me, then. Certainly so rigorous a study of Catholics as that is grounds enough to make sweeping charges against a billion people.
Um, let's see:
30 divided by, to be conservative, 900,000,000.
3/90,000,000
.3/9,000,000,
.03/900,000
.003/90,000
.0003/9,000
.00003/900
.00001/300
.000003/100
Oh, yes. THAT there is a representative sample.
It got warm in my back yard yesterday. Global warming is happening!
Leaving aside that you don't have to "qualify" to be Catholic. We include sinners, and we don't give up on them easily. They may not be studying theri Bible now. But who knows what time will bring?
Protestant are all about judging it seems. They judge the heart and intentions of Catholics and a minute snapshot gives them all they need to judge the entire Church.
It’s quite
PLAUSIBLE
that the sample was
QUITE, VERY REPRESENTATIVE of the whole.
It’s not the size per se that’s an issue . . . as I suspect you know.
It’s HOW REPRESENTATIVE was the sample, of the whole.
It may well have been very representative.
It may well have been very UNrepresentative.
Hard to tell.
happy robot.
He would say nothing of the sort: He founded the Catholic Church, the Holy Spirit guides its path.
***The bible is clear about the use of that name so the RCC adopts it as their standard. Such incredible, evil disregard and disrespect for the bible!!!***
Why don’t we look at Matt 23 in context.
Matt 23:
1
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples,
2
2 saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses.
3
Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice.
4
They tie up heavy burdens 3 (hard to carry) and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them.
5
4 All their works are performed to be seen. They widen their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels.
6
5 They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues,
7
greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation ‘Rabbi.’
8
6 As for you, do not be called ‘Rabbi.’ You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers.
9
Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven.
10
Do not be called ‘Master’; you have but one master, the Messiah.
He is warning everyone here to avoid pride and hubris.
Do not be called ‘teacher’. So every Protestant that calls someone ‘teacher’ is committing a sin?
By the way, ‘doctor’ means ‘teacher’ - we speak of the Doctors of the Church. Brainyquote has as its first definition: A teacher; one skilled in a profession, or branch of knowledge; a learned man.
So Protestants should avoid the term ‘doctor’ as well.
Ditto with the term ‘master’ from which Mister and Mistress are derived. Better avoid those as well.
Let us example a little further what Jesus meant. Doctor means teacher.
1 Tim 2:
7
For this I was appointed preacher and apostle (I am speaking the truth, I am not lying), teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
2 Tim 1:
9
7 He saved us and called us to a holy life, not according to our works but according to his own design and the grace bestowed on us in Christ Jesus before time began,
10
but now made manifest through the appearance of our savior Christ Jesus, who destroyed death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,
11
8 for which I was appointed preacher and apostle and teacher.
1 Co 12:
28
Some people God has designated in the church to be, first, apostles; second, prophets; third, teachers
and so on.
So what does He mean? He means that accept no ‘fatherhood’ or ‘teacher’ claim on those who do not merit it. Paul calls Timothy his ‘son’ many times throughout his letters. Peter refers to Gospel writer Mark as his son.
In conclusion, I give you 1 Cor 4:
I am writing you this not to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 5
15
Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
Is Paul demonstrating ***Such incredible, evil disregard and disrespect for the bible!!!***?
The poor Calvinists have no free will to submit. You yourself admit to knowing nothing.
As a Catholic, I’d say I’m doing pretty good.
Scripture exhorts us to use Godly judgment in a number of respects and contexts.
RC's are quite energetic in exercising many judgments towards, about, regarding Prottys. We are often thrown Mat 7:16, for example.
Those . . . criteria etc. slice both ways.
Very much both ways.
Please don’t go.
Your posts are very welcome; you are doing well. Do not let the heretic, the apostate and the heathen stop you from doing what is right.
Mark
Duh!
Being a non-random sample reported anecdotally by a biased source, it is impossible to tell.
When a Christian departs from grace, there is either repentence, or a retreat into legalism.
Thank you again for sneering at my faith.
***You think we’d enjoy pontificating to our mirrors or the choir?***
Why not? Creating one’s own god whilst gazing lovely at one’s visage in the mirror might get boring after a while.
Yes they were handing out free bottled water at wallmart and will be cutting checks for $28,000 per homeowner whose home is underwater.
***I have a “no-gibberish” rule. Sorry.***
Lot’s of luck sticking with it around here. :)
And when you don't, you become a proselytizing heretic.
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