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The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; mary; rcc; romancatholic
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To: Petronski

Hmm, I think I’ve seen plenty of that from the Catholic side of the Tiber as well.


6,201 posted on 06/16/2008 12:57:39 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Petronski

Jim Johnson? Where was he buried?

Others will read the site given and those reading it have adequate intelligence.


6,202 posted on 06/16/2008 12:58:41 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: Petronski

“I’m taking sola scriptura at its face and finding it fatally flawed.”

“Did Jesus live by the traditions of men or “by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God?”

Jesus Himself lived a sola scriptura life—or show where He departed from scripture by keeping instead to the traditions of men.


6,203 posted on 06/16/2008 12:59:14 PM PDT by MarDav
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To: Marysecretary

Does that make it right?


6,204 posted on 06/16/2008 12:59:41 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: MarkBsnr

The Holy Spirit works through any Christian who will allow Him. Of course, some have the gift of healing and that can be quite dramatic.


6,205 posted on 06/16/2008 1:00:54 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: MarkBsnr

I received the same “admonition” from the same poster.

Never does such a comment cease to amaze me, especially so when it’s addressed to you personally, as was done to me.


6,206 posted on 06/16/2008 1:00:56 PM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words:"It's too late"))
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To: Petronski

Oh, dear. That’s revealing...


6,207 posted on 06/16/2008 1:01:33 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: MarDav

And the subject of “tradition,” when treated by our Saviour during His earthly ministry, does not fare so well.

You simple post was GOOD!


6,208 posted on 06/16/2008 1:02:20 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: John Leland 1789

Do you not recognize that finding “a” Simon bar Jonah does not mean one has found “the” Simon bar Jonah?

Good grief.

The link you posted is to the work of famously Catholic-hating iconoclast J. Paul Peterson. You could not have done worse if you linked Iain Paisley.


6,209 posted on 06/16/2008 1:02:54 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski

I’ve said it a hundred times, Petronski. Not all Catholics are Christians and not all Protestants are Christians. It’s what we do with the Lord Jesus Christ. Is He your savior or not? You can go to church all your life and not be a Christian. A Christian has the indwelling Holy Spirit. I pray all of us here do.


6,210 posted on 06/16/2008 1:04:06 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: MarDav
Jesus Himself lived a sola scriptura life—or show where He departed from scripture by keeping instead to the traditions of men.

Scripture at that time was the Old Testament. Do you not think He departed from the Old Testament?

And what did He do in His life? Did He write, or did He teach orally?

As for sola scriptura, did Christ come to establish a church that could not function for 1500 years (until the printing press)?

Please.

6,211 posted on 06/16/2008 1:05:56 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Marysecretary

This is the ego thing again. I don’t care what you all think of me because of my faith. If I did, I’d jump right back over the Tiber into Protestantville. I don’t care what you think about the dispostion of my soul, only what God thinks about it.

The Catholic Church is the Body of Christ, when you deliberately slander her you slander Christ. Not me, it isn’t all about me, it is about Father, Son and Holy Spirit, it is about obeying what it says in the Bible, it is about not skipping the parts that I don’t like and just taking that part I do, it is not beginning new “churches” in my own image or opinion. It is about the authority of the Church spoken in the Bible and obeying that authority because that same authority was established by God and protected by the Holy Spirit.

I don’t care if you believe it but if you don’t I believe you leave out the fullness of the Truth. I believe you live a partial life in the Grace of God when you could have the fullness of all that has been left to us. That is your choice, I don’t care that you have made that choice, I believe in the Grace of God and the Infinite Mercy of Jesus. I will not limit God but I will take all the gifts Jesus gave us, without shame.

I will love God above all, I will worship through His, One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church regardless of what you say and regardless of what you feel. I will venerate Mary and the saints who have given us example and through the Grace of God, I will love those who persecute Christ by persecuting His Church. “Lord, forgive them for they know not what they do.”

Misunderstandings and ignorance are understandable but deliberate libel is another.


6,212 posted on 06/16/2008 1:13:17 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: papertyger
And when you don't, you become a proselytizing heretic.

Now that's an oxymoron!
6,213 posted on 06/16/2008 1:14:21 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know no thing.)
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To: Petronski

My, my, I forgot that Dr. Paisely does a very good job on this subject . . . well, for a Protestant.

Dr. Paisely is not trying to build or sustain a movement by telling people that salvation, God’s greatest blessings, or the depths of Christian joy are tied somehow to his own church, denomination or communion table. And that does make a big diffrence to many.


6,214 posted on 06/16/2008 1:14:37 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: John Leland 1789; MarDav; Quix; Marysecretary

Making a Saint out of Peter

In reaction to the runaway success of Marcion’s Pauline Christianity, scribes in Rome concocted a sacred history to bolster their own claim to singular authority. Their chosen hero figure was Peter, ‘first of the apostles.’ Why did Rome need to make a saint out of Peter?
It seems curious, to say the least, that a Judaean fisherman, a married Jew and the designated ‘apostle of the circumcision’, should become the iconographic, patronising and protecting hero-figure at the heart of Roman Catholicism. With Jesus, Mary and the Father already in the pantheon, why did the church need another celestial hero?

The answer is: politics. The politics of power. In the first three centuries of the Christian era, Rome was not an especially important centre for the Faith. The great sees of the early Christian world were Alexandria, Ephesus and Antioch – each a centre of early proselytising and of a large Christian community. Each claimed some justifying link to an apostle. Paul had lived in Antioch, for example and John, it was said, had seen out his days in Ephesus. Mark was associated with Alexandria. Rome, in contrast, had no direct apostolic connection.
Jerusalem, the original Christian ‘centre of the world’ and anticipated venue for Christ’s descent from the clouds, had been destroyed in 70 AD. To the pious mind, the pagan ‘new town’ of Aelia, built upon its ruins, had lowly status and was subordinate to the see at Caesarea. Again, Caesarea could claim an apostolic connection: here, ‘Philip the evangelist’ had supposedly lived. In these eastern cities, the early church produced its first leaders, the Fathers who made the earliest attempts at defining doctrine and establishing the uniqueness of their faith. These were the ‘apologists’ who engaged in debate with Greek philosophers and competed with the priests of Mithra and other mystery religions. It was their stylii that wrote the earliest Christian scripture. For centuries, schools of philosophy, mystics, prophets and magicians had speculated on reality. Now that were joined by speculators in Christ, many themselves trained in rhetoric and classical philosophy.


I didn’t write this, and I forgot to copy the web site address. I’ve got to back and find it again.

I am at a diadvantage here, because there are tons of web sites blocked out of China by the Chicoms.


6,215 posted on 06/16/2008 1:18:04 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: MarkBsnr; Quix
Complement to what? Heresies?

Better to know what you are saying and have a slight spelling definciency than to spell correctly and have a logic deficiency.
6,216 posted on 06/16/2008 1:20:18 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know no thing.)
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To: John Leland 1789
Dr. Paisely is not trying to build or sustain a movement...

See, you lost me right there. Ridiculous.

...telling people that salvation, God’s greatest blessings, or the depths of Christian joy are tied somehow to his own church, denomination or communion table. And that does make a big diffrence to many.

Who does all that? When did we stop talking about the Catholic Church?

6,217 posted on 06/16/2008 1:20:38 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Marysecretary
No Mary, I don't believe any of that for a minute. Even as an Evangelical I never subjected Catholics to the type of supercilious,doctrinaire, accusations your side practices as a matter of course.

Don't you wonder why your side doesn't have an equivalent term to sado-evangelist?

It's because you practice it, and we don't.

6,218 posted on 06/16/2008 1:21:02 PM PDT by papertyger (What Would Jesus Do? ... Remember "freak out and turn over tables," is a valid option ;o)
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To: John Leland 1789
My, my, I forgot that Dr. Paisely does a very good job on this subject . . .

Anti-Catholic lies? I agree.

well, for a Protestant.

Guess what: you're protesting the Catholic Church, you're a Protestant.

6,219 posted on 06/16/2008 1:21:53 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Marysecretary

I forgot, you have your own personal definition of Christian.

And you’re welcome to it.

I’ll just stay over here, on the same page with the rest of the English-speaking world.

adj.

1. Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus’s teachings.
3. Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike.
4. Relating to or characteristic of Christianity or its adherents.
5. Showing a loving concern for others; humane.

n.

1. One who professes belief in Jesus as Christ or follows the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.
2. One who lives according to the teachings of Jesus.


6,220 posted on 06/16/2008 1:24:15 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski

“Do you not think He departed from the Old Testament?”

You seem to have misread me (by quite a bit.) I inferred, suggested no such thing. Let me restate: Jesus did not come to do away with the law but to fulfill the law. Christ came to give understanding to what was at the heart of the law. He did not abolish it. He magnified it, brought it to life (poor phrasing). Let me ask you, do you think that He said or did anything that departed from the Old Testament? If so, what was it? If not, if nothing can be found to show that He did opt for something other than scripture to live His divine life by, then we can conclude that Christ Himself was sola scriptura.

You are the one that said that sola scriptura was biblically inaccurate. I have suggested that the life of Christ reveals your statement to be false. I see you did not cite an instance where He departed from scripture in deference to the traditions of men, but have instead chosen to speak for whatever reason of the importance of Christ’s church. I am speaking of the person of Christ.


6,221 posted on 06/16/2008 1:25:00 PM PDT by MarDav
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To: papertyger

“...supercilious, doctrinare, accusations...”

Yes—and let me add: presumptions about the state of another’s soul.


6,222 posted on 06/16/2008 1:25:23 PM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words:"It's too late"))
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To: John Leland 1789

LOL

I found the tract you quoted.

Here’s the link (read carefully):

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/peter.htm


6,223 posted on 06/16/2008 1:25:40 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: MarkBsnr
It was some time ago. I wish that FR had an in-post search function.

I’ll see what Google can come up with.


Some time ago and you still bear the cross of agony. Get over it.
6,224 posted on 06/16/2008 1:26:13 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know no thing.)
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To: MarDav
Me, then: “Do you not think He departed from the Old Testament?”

You, now: You seem to have misread me (by quite a bit.) I inferred, suggested no such thing.

You, then: ...or show where He departed from scripture by keeping instead to the traditions of men.

Hmmm.

6,225 posted on 06/16/2008 1:28:27 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski

Does a Catholic protesting at the Republican National Convention make him/her a Protestant?


6,226 posted on 06/16/2008 1:29:33 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: MarDav
I see you did not cite an instance where He departed from scripture in deference to the traditions of men, but have instead chosen to speak for whatever reason of the importance of Christ’s church. I am speaking of the person of Christ.

Here, again, is my reply:

Scripture at that time was the Old Testament. Do you not think He departed from the Old Testament?

And what did He do in His life? Did He write, or did He teach orally?

As for sola scriptura, did Christ come to establish a church that could not function for 1500 years (until the printing press)?

Please.

6,227 posted on 06/16/2008 1:30:48 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: OLD REGGIE; MarkBsnr

I would say that it’s not a case of “bearing the cross of agony”, which is a demeaning comment.

I have also been told the same thing by the same poster. It is a matter of having that type of post corrected, as it should be.

I would expect that the repeated manner of posting in which the poster tells others they are going to hell is a matter for correction within the forum guidelines—for the sake of the integrity of the forum. Calling it to attention doesn’t merit a snide evaluation.


6,228 posted on 06/16/2008 1:33:20 PM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words:"It's too late"))
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To: 1000 silverlings; Quix
Nothing surprises me anymore. by the way, quix is the barbarian, I am the heathen, you can be either the apostate or the heretic.

I'd rather be the winsome dancing girl with an immaculate heart of gold.

Or a stewardess.

6,229 posted on 06/16/2008 1:33:45 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Petronski

What is the term for someone who protests the Protestants?


6,230 posted on 06/16/2008 1:33:45 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: Augustinian monk

Shots included?


6,231 posted on 06/16/2008 1:34:21 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: John Leland 1789

If they’re protesting the Catholic Church, yeah, I’d say so.


6,232 posted on 06/16/2008 1:35:13 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: John Leland 1789
What is the term for someone who protests the Protestants?

Biblically well-educated.

6,233 posted on 06/16/2008 1:35:55 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Marysecretary; Quix
You can be our “beloved infidel”, how’s that?

Oooh, that's a good one. I'd take that if I were you, Mary. You can always trade up for something at a later date. To a flirty Pharisee, perhaps.

6,234 posted on 06/16/2008 1:36:49 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarDav
“Did Jesus live by the traditions of men or “by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God?”

Now, prove every "Word" was written in the Bible.

Jesus Himself lived a sola scriptura life.

Then why didn't he tell anyone beside John to write anything down? Don't you think if it was that important He would have told us to follow the book that would be written?

6,235 posted on 06/16/2008 1:37:05 PM PDT by papertyger (What Would Jesus Do? ... Remember "freak out and turn over tables," is a valid option ;o)
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To: DungeonMaster
Catholics are not burdened by the false teaching known as sola scriptura.

LOL. Perfect.

6,236 posted on 06/16/2008 1:38:16 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
LOL. Perfect.

You find slander very funny. "Perfect," in fact.

6,237 posted on 06/16/2008 1:40:38 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: John Leland 1789
And the subject of "tradition," when treated by our Saviour during His earthly ministry, does not fare so well.

So where's His command to ammend the Scriptures and make them the highest authority.

If it were that important, don't you think we'd have been given unambiguous instructions?

6,238 posted on 06/16/2008 1:41:59 PM PDT by papertyger (What Would Jesus Do? ... Remember "freak out and turn over tables," is a valid option ;o)
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To: Petronski; 1000 silverlings; Quix; Augustinian monk; Marysecretary; DungeonMaster
DR.E: We are "consecrated to Mary?!?"

PETRONSKI: Nope. Doesn't say that.

Of course it does, in black and white.

Perhaps you didn't read the excerpt which says exactly that.

Our very consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary calls upon us to make reparation for the offenses that we and others have committed against her.

Are you consecrated to Mary, Petronski?

6,239 posted on 06/16/2008 1:43:51 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: fortheDeclaration

You can call Christ a liar if you wish, if that is your personal interpretation, but you do it at your own peril.


6,240 posted on 06/16/2008 1:45:45 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (TAZ:Untamed, Unpredictable, Uninhibited.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Ever diagram a sentence?

Our very consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary...

To what are we consecrated?

The Immaculate Heart.

The Immaculate Heart of whom?

Mary.

6,241 posted on 06/16/2008 1:49:32 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski; 1000 silverlings; Quix; Marysecretary; Augustinian monk; DungeonMaster; Mr. K
DR.E: There it is. Mary "bears the burden of all sin." Blasphemy and lies.

PETRONSKI: What? Your post? It simply does not say what you claim it says.

Again, read the excerpt...

God willed that Mary should be intimately associated with His Son in bearing the burden of all sin; surely then, her Immaculate Heart, in union with His divine Heart, should receive reparation from us who have caused them such pain.

Mary bears the burden of our sins with Christ, and therefore she "deserves" "reparation."

Ungodly lies that direct our eyes from Christ alone back onto the creature. There are few sins greater.

6,242 posted on 06/16/2008 1:49:54 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarkBsnr; fortheDeclaration
Thank you. I did not participate in that thread. I don't believe fortheDeclaration or any human on this earth can know your future.

I assure you if I had seen these posts (the last two) I would have taken exception.

It is just as bad as the Pope telling us we must be subject to the Roman Pontiff for salvation.

6,243 posted on 06/16/2008 1:52:04 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know no thing.)
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To: Petronski

Where in your answer is there a citing of Christ departing from Scripture? Is it when you say, “...or did He teach orally?”

Isa 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Is it when you say, “...did Christ come to establish a church?”

Deu 14:2 For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. (though the word church is not used the word ecclesia — a special calling out/called out ones, the phrase referring to these called out ones “peculiar people” is the same phrase Peter uses to describe the church in his first epistle.)

As to the functioning of the church, is the servant greater than the master, or does s/he also (like the Son of Man) live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God? Still waiting for you to identify where Christ departed from scripture in His life, choosing instead to go outside of scripture for direction.


6,244 posted on 06/16/2008 1:52:39 PM PDT by MarDav
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Mary bears the burden of our sins with Christ, and therefore she "deserves" "reparation."

Doesn't say that.

Mary should be intimately associated with His Son in bearing the burden of all sin...

It says she should be intimately associated with...

I'd explain it to you again, but you do not believe Mary had the choice--the free will--to say no, so the explanation would be lost on you.

6,245 posted on 06/16/2008 1:55:12 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: MarDav
Everything He did and said is outside of Scripture as it existed at the time, else why would the New Testament necessary?

Many of His acts may have been foretold in the Old Testament, but the actions of His life are a New Testament.

6,246 posted on 06/16/2008 1:59:38 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: papertyger

Which books of the bible are you suggesting are unimportant (since, as you say, Jesus didn’t tell anyone to write them down)?

But, of course, He did tell all those that recorded the books that make up the scriptures to indeed write them down—by His Spirit.

You said,
‘Don’t you think if it was that important He would have told us to follow the book that would be written?”

Yes. He said at one point to the Jews, “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” And, of course later He said, “Follow Me.” (emphasis on the “Me”)


6,247 posted on 06/16/2008 1:59:38 PM PDT by MarDav
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To: papertyger

Which books of the bible are you suggesting are unimportant (since, as you say, Jesus didn’t tell anyone to write them down)?

But, of course, He did tell all those that recorded the books that make up the scriptures to indeed write them down—by His Spirit.

You said,
‘Don’t you think if it was that important He would have told us to follow the book that would be written?”

Yes. He said at one point to the Jews, “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” And, of course later He said, “Follow Me.” (emphasis on the “Me”)


6,248 posted on 06/16/2008 1:59:48 PM PDT by MarDav
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To: Petronski
Your denial of the exact words in black and white spoken in that excerpt is noted for everyone to read.

Goes to prove it really is God who alone gives eyes to see.

6,249 posted on 06/16/2008 2:07:56 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarkBsnr; Marysecretary
have visited the Basilica in Carey, Ohio a number of times. Coming to the shrine has been healing for many people. The crutches, and bandages and other items that were left there over the last hundred years are remarkable.

I have unused crutches in my shed, I have several unused orthotics in my closet, and I can't begin to tell you how many bandages have been discarded in the trash over the years. Miraculous? No!

How many no longer needed artificial limbs have been left there over the years? Any? That would be miraculous.

6,250 posted on 06/16/2008 2:10:49 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know no thing.)
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