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The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; mary; rcc; romancatholic
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Ever diagram a sentence?

Our very consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary...

To what are we consecrated?

The Immaculate Heart.

The Immaculate Heart of whom?

Mary.

6,241 posted on 06/16/2008 1:49:32 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski; 1000 silverlings; Quix; Marysecretary; Augustinian monk; DungeonMaster; Mr. K
DR.E: There it is. Mary "bears the burden of all sin." Blasphemy and lies.

PETRONSKI: What? Your post? It simply does not say what you claim it says.

Again, read the excerpt...

God willed that Mary should be intimately associated with His Son in bearing the burden of all sin; surely then, her Immaculate Heart, in union with His divine Heart, should receive reparation from us who have caused them such pain.

Mary bears the burden of our sins with Christ, and therefore she "deserves" "reparation."

Ungodly lies that direct our eyes from Christ alone back onto the creature. There are few sins greater.

6,242 posted on 06/16/2008 1:49:54 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarkBsnr; fortheDeclaration
Thank you. I did not participate in that thread. I don't believe fortheDeclaration or any human on this earth can know your future.

I assure you if I had seen these posts (the last two) I would have taken exception.

It is just as bad as the Pope telling us we must be subject to the Roman Pontiff for salvation.

6,243 posted on 06/16/2008 1:52:04 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know no thing.)
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To: Petronski

Where in your answer is there a citing of Christ departing from Scripture? Is it when you say, “...or did He teach orally?”

Isa 54:13 And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

Is it when you say, “...did Christ come to establish a church?”

Deu 14:2 For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth. (though the word church is not used the word ecclesia — a special calling out/called out ones, the phrase referring to these called out ones “peculiar people” is the same phrase Peter uses to describe the church in his first epistle.)

As to the functioning of the church, is the servant greater than the master, or does s/he also (like the Son of Man) live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God? Still waiting for you to identify where Christ departed from scripture in His life, choosing instead to go outside of scripture for direction.


6,244 posted on 06/16/2008 1:52:39 PM PDT by MarDav
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Mary bears the burden of our sins with Christ, and therefore she "deserves" "reparation."

Doesn't say that.

Mary should be intimately associated with His Son in bearing the burden of all sin...

It says she should be intimately associated with...

I'd explain it to you again, but you do not believe Mary had the choice--the free will--to say no, so the explanation would be lost on you.

6,245 posted on 06/16/2008 1:55:12 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: MarDav
Everything He did and said is outside of Scripture as it existed at the time, else why would the New Testament necessary?

Many of His acts may have been foretold in the Old Testament, but the actions of His life are a New Testament.

6,246 posted on 06/16/2008 1:59:38 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: papertyger

Which books of the bible are you suggesting are unimportant (since, as you say, Jesus didn’t tell anyone to write them down)?

But, of course, He did tell all those that recorded the books that make up the scriptures to indeed write them down—by His Spirit.

You said,
‘Don’t you think if it was that important He would have told us to follow the book that would be written?”

Yes. He said at one point to the Jews, “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” And, of course later He said, “Follow Me.” (emphasis on the “Me”)


6,247 posted on 06/16/2008 1:59:38 PM PDT by MarDav
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To: papertyger

Which books of the bible are you suggesting are unimportant (since, as you say, Jesus didn’t tell anyone to write them down)?

But, of course, He did tell all those that recorded the books that make up the scriptures to indeed write them down—by His Spirit.

You said,
‘Don’t you think if it was that important He would have told us to follow the book that would be written?”

Yes. He said at one point to the Jews, “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” And, of course later He said, “Follow Me.” (emphasis on the “Me”)


6,248 posted on 06/16/2008 1:59:48 PM PDT by MarDav
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To: Petronski
Your denial of the exact words in black and white spoken in that excerpt is noted for everyone to read.

Goes to prove it really is God who alone gives eyes to see.

6,249 posted on 06/16/2008 2:07:56 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarkBsnr; Marysecretary
have visited the Basilica in Carey, Ohio a number of times. Coming to the shrine has been healing for many people. The crutches, and bandages and other items that were left there over the last hundred years are remarkable.

I have unused crutches in my shed, I have several unused orthotics in my closet, and I can't begin to tell you how many bandages have been discarded in the trash over the years. Miraculous? No!

How many no longer needed artificial limbs have been left there over the years? Any? That would be miraculous.

6,250 posted on 06/16/2008 2:10:49 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know no thing.)
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To: Petronski

The foretold actions were fulfilled. Old Testament “shadows” gave way to New Testament substance. The ark of Noah, sacrifice of Isaac, the Passover, the tabernacle, etc. All of these were shadows of good things to come (Read Hebrews 10). Christ came and Thus He lived according to the scriptures.

The New Testament was necessary because God’s plan of redemption, which had been foretold from the beginning (the just shall live by faith), reached its fulfillment in Christ’s propitiary work on the cross. Everything in the Old Testament times was pointing forward to Calvary, and everything in New Testament times points back to Calvary (with the exception of course, of Christ’s Second Coming where His enemies will be made His footstool.


6,251 posted on 06/16/2008 2:10:57 PM PDT by MarDav
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

I do not deny the exact words as printed. I deny your misinterpretation of them.

That misinterpretation of those words is noted for everyone to see.


6,252 posted on 06/16/2008 2:11:29 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski
Our very consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary... To what are we consecrated? The Immaculate Heart. The Immaculate Heart of whom? Mary.

This appears more like a fun house than a religious discussion every day.

I believe you have just proven my point. The excerpt (wrongly) says we are consecrated to Mary which is exactly what I wrote and which you challenged!

6,253 posted on 06/16/2008 2:11:41 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarDav
...if nothing can be found to show that He did opt for something other than scripture to live His divine life by, then we can conclude that Christ Himself was sola scriptura.

What is it with you guys and your love for the "excluded middle" fallacy. It's like if you use it enough, it won't be a fallacy anymore.

6,254 posted on 06/16/2008 2:12:34 PM PDT by papertyger (What Would Jesus Do? ... Remember "freak out and turn over tables," is a valid option ;o)
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To: OLD REGGIE

May we come to your garage and pray for lower gas prices?


6,255 posted on 06/16/2008 2:13:53 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The excerpt (wrongly) says we are consecrated to Mary...

It does not. Are you blind?

It says we are consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Not to Mary, to Mary's Immaculate Heart.

Is English your first language?

6,256 posted on 06/16/2008 2:16:50 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Quix
Always opus out

If someone cannot defend their faith from the holy word of God, one would think that alone would force the believer to return to the Bible and search out the truth for themselves.

The frustration some people feel when they realize their beliefs do not align with Scripture must be fierce. But that irritation might just be the Holy Spirit moving them back to God's word.

6,257 posted on 06/16/2008 2:21:16 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Petronski; 1000 silverlings; Quix; Augustinian monk; Marysecretary; Mr. K; OLD REGGIE; ...
DR.E: The excerpt (wrongly) says we are consecrated to Mary...

PETRONSKI: It does not. Are you blind? It says we are consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Not to Mary, to Mary's Immaculate Heart.

Wow. Fascinating. Lines like that make all this time on FR well worthwhile.

So there's a difference between Mary and Mary's immaculate heart? What would that be? Is there a difference between Petronski and Petronski's heart (assuming....you know)?

6,258 posted on 06/16/2008 2:26:30 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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Comment #6,259 Removed by Moderator

To: Dr. Eckleburg
So there's a difference between Mary and Mary's immaculate heart?

If I thought you were actually genuinely curious about the teaching, I would tell you all about it. Even without knowing, the language makes it quite clear: "Mary" is not the same as "Mary's Immaculate Heart." You can see that, right?

6,260 posted on 06/16/2008 2:30:24 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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