Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.
There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.
Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).
Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.
Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.
I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.
But do I WORSHIP them?
No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.
I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.
There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?
I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.
Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.
In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.
At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.
You claimed it says "There it is. Mary "bears the burden of all sin." Blasphemy and lies."
Now everyone can see the difference.
Thus proving you have to go outside of Scripture for direction and simultaniously disproving sola scriptura.
How about "Haughty Hate"?
No, any sane person grounded in Scripture would not "see that" in the slightest.
"Consecrated to Mary" is the exact same things as "consecrated to Mary's immaculate heart."
However the RCC finagles these words into a terrible blasphemy as it steals the glory of Christ and allots it to His mother is a lie all Christians should rebute.
Certainly God is not fooled by these idiotic word games.
"Flee from idalotry." -- 1 Corinthians 10:14
Jesus said to his disciples: “You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on your right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles. Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.”
It doesn't say Mary is associated with Christ's bearing of the burden of all sin. It says Mary is associated herself with the act of bearing the burden of all sin with her Son.
Do you really think God doesn't see how the RCC mocks Jesus Christ in this idolatrous tandem redemption?
Uh, no. Sorry.
Then you truncate Scripture again:
"Flee from idalotry." -- 1 Corinthians 10:14
1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, fly from the service of idols.
Mary is not an idol.
Ah, that's an easy one. It is because Protestants on this forum really try to abide by the rules and not make this personal.
Your use of the term "sado-evangelist" when speaking to an individual is contrary to the rules of FR.
Further, your obvious pride in that terms speaks volumes.
What is the difference between being “consecrated to Mary” and “consecrated to Mary’s heart,” immaculate or otherwise?
The ones that didn’t believe walked away.
The ones that did stayed and became the foundation of Christ’s church.
No Mary, I don’t believe any of that for a minute. Even as an Evangelical I never subjected Catholics to the type of supercilious,doctrinaire, accusations your side practices as a matter of course.”
Me either, I had my questions and I had been taught the same silliness that these people hold onto like it was Scripture itself.
I asked my questions respectfully of people I respected and if they didn’t have the answer, they asked someone who knew or we found out together.
I remember one time when my friends were Catechizing me a woman came to our prayer meeting, she wouldn’t come back because we were too intellectual.
And here you add words to distort it to your meaning: It says Mary is associated herself with the act of bearing the burden of all sin with her Son.
Do you really think God doesn't see how the RCC mocks Jesus Christ in this idolatrous tandem redemption?
This IS God's Church. God the Son founded it and God the Holy Spirit guides it. I sincerely doubt He is impressed with your misinterpretations.
Jesus taught entirely orally and that is how the early Church taught.
Perhaps someone will come along to explain it to you. I could give you links if you want. As for me dancing to your tune? Uh, no. Not now.
Matthew 7:6
AMEN!
Therefore I urge all my Catholic brothers and sisters to stop praying to Mary, venerating Mary, believing Mary is an intercessor between God and men, believing Mary is a "co-redeemer," kneeling to Mary, building wooden statues of Mary to fall down to, and thinking that they are in any way consecrated by or to or through Mary who most definitely does not shoulder the burden of our sins and who was a fallen, fallible creature like the rest of us, saved by grace alone.
"Flee from idolatry." -- 1 Corinthians 10:14
There is no idolatry in any of that. A lot of that is not even Catholic teaching.
lol. Read the Scriptures, Mark. Christ said repeatedly...
"What saith the Scriptures?
Would that were true.
***Jesus Himself lived a sola scriptura life—or show where He departed from scripture by keeping instead to the traditions of men.***
What Scripture are you referring to here?
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