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The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; mary; rcc; romancatholic
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To: Petronski

The foretold actions were fulfilled. Old Testament “shadows” gave way to New Testament substance. The ark of Noah, sacrifice of Isaac, the Passover, the tabernacle, etc. All of these were shadows of good things to come (Read Hebrews 10). Christ came and Thus He lived according to the scriptures.

The New Testament was necessary because God’s plan of redemption, which had been foretold from the beginning (the just shall live by faith), reached its fulfillment in Christ’s propitiary work on the cross. Everything in the Old Testament times was pointing forward to Calvary, and everything in New Testament times points back to Calvary (with the exception of course, of Christ’s Second Coming where His enemies will be made His footstool.


6,251 posted on 06/16/2008 2:10:57 PM PDT by MarDav
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

I do not deny the exact words as printed. I deny your misinterpretation of them.

That misinterpretation of those words is noted for everyone to see.


6,252 posted on 06/16/2008 2:11:29 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski
Our very consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary... To what are we consecrated? The Immaculate Heart. The Immaculate Heart of whom? Mary.

This appears more like a fun house than a religious discussion every day.

I believe you have just proven my point. The excerpt (wrongly) says we are consecrated to Mary which is exactly what I wrote and which you challenged!

6,253 posted on 06/16/2008 2:11:41 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarDav
...if nothing can be found to show that He did opt for something other than scripture to live His divine life by, then we can conclude that Christ Himself was sola scriptura.

What is it with you guys and your love for the "excluded middle" fallacy. It's like if you use it enough, it won't be a fallacy anymore.

6,254 posted on 06/16/2008 2:12:34 PM PDT by papertyger (What Would Jesus Do? ... Remember "freak out and turn over tables," is a valid option ;o)
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To: OLD REGGIE

May we come to your garage and pray for lower gas prices?


6,255 posted on 06/16/2008 2:13:53 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
The excerpt (wrongly) says we are consecrated to Mary...

It does not. Are you blind?

It says we are consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Not to Mary, to Mary's Immaculate Heart.

Is English your first language?

6,256 posted on 06/16/2008 2:16:50 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: 1000 silverlings; Quix
Always opus out

If someone cannot defend their faith from the holy word of God, one would think that alone would force the believer to return to the Bible and search out the truth for themselves.

The frustration some people feel when they realize their beliefs do not align with Scripture must be fierce. But that irritation might just be the Holy Spirit moving them back to God's word.

6,257 posted on 06/16/2008 2:21:16 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Petronski; 1000 silverlings; Quix; Augustinian monk; Marysecretary; Mr. K; OLD REGGIE; ...
DR.E: The excerpt (wrongly) says we are consecrated to Mary...

PETRONSKI: It does not. Are you blind? It says we are consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Not to Mary, to Mary's Immaculate Heart.

Wow. Fascinating. Lines like that make all this time on FR well worthwhile.

So there's a difference between Mary and Mary's immaculate heart? What would that be? Is there a difference between Petronski and Petronski's heart (assuming....you know)?

6,258 posted on 06/16/2008 2:26:30 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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Comment #6,259 Removed by Moderator

To: Dr. Eckleburg
So there's a difference between Mary and Mary's immaculate heart?

If I thought you were actually genuinely curious about the teaching, I would tell you all about it. Even without knowing, the language makes it quite clear: "Mary" is not the same as "Mary's Immaculate Heart." You can see that, right?

6,260 posted on 06/16/2008 2:30:24 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
It actually says "God willed that Mary should be intimately associated with His Son in bearing the burden of all sin;..."

You claimed it says "There it is. Mary "bears the burden of all sin." Blasphemy and lies."

Now everyone can see the difference.

6,261 posted on 06/16/2008 2:32:51 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: MarDav
But, of course, He did tell all those that recorded the books that make up the scriptures to indeed write them down—by His Spirit.

Thus proving you have to go outside of Scripture for direction and simultaniously disproving sola scriptura.

6,262 posted on 06/16/2008 2:33:25 PM PDT by papertyger (What Would Jesus Do? ... Remember "freak out and turn over tables," is a valid option ;o)
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To: papertyger; Marysecretary
No Mary, I don't believe any of that for a minute. Even as an Evangelical I never subjected Catholics to the type of supercilious,doctrinaire, accusations your side practices as a matter of course.

Don't you wonder why your side doesn't have an equivalent term to sado-evangelist?

It's because you practice it, and we don't.

I'm impressed with the tone of loving kindness displayed here.

How about "Haughty Hate"?

6,263 posted on 06/16/2008 2:38:13 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know no thing.)
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To: Petronski
the language makes it quite clear: "Mary" is not the same as "Mary's Immaculate Heart." You can see that, right?

No, any sane person grounded in Scripture would not "see that" in the slightest.

"Consecrated to Mary" is the exact same things as "consecrated to Mary's immaculate heart."

However the RCC finagles these words into a terrible blasphemy as it steals the glory of Christ and allots it to His mother is a lie all Christians should rebute.

Certainly God is not fooled by these idiotic word games.

"Flee from idalotry." -- 1 Corinthians 10:14

6,264 posted on 06/16/2008 2:39:02 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: All
Today's Gospel Mt 5:38-42

Jesus said to his disciples: “You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on your right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles. Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.”

6,265 posted on 06/16/2008 2:42:20 PM PDT by mgist (Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hear)
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To: Petronski
Mary should be intimately associated with His Son in bearing the burden of all sin;.

It doesn't say Mary is associated with Christ's bearing of the burden of all sin. It says Mary is associated herself with the act of bearing the burden of all sin with her Son.

Do you really think God doesn't see how the RCC mocks Jesus Christ in this idolatrous tandem redemption?

6,266 posted on 06/16/2008 2:44:20 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"Consecrated to Mary" is the exact same things as "consecrated to Mary's immaculate heart."

Uh, no. Sorry.

Then you truncate Scripture again:

"Flee from idalotry." -- 1 Corinthians 10:14

1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, fly from the service of idols.

Mary is not an idol.

6,267 posted on 06/16/2008 2:47:06 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: papertyger; Marysecretary; OLD REGGIE; 1000 silverlings; Quix
Don't you wonder why your side doesn't have an equivalent term to sado-evangelist?

Ah, that's an easy one. It is because Protestants on this forum really try to abide by the rules and not make this personal.

Your use of the term "sado-evangelist" when speaking to an individual is contrary to the rules of FR.

Further, your obvious pride in that terms speaks volumes.

6,268 posted on 06/16/2008 2:48:02 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Petronski

What is the difference between being “consecrated to Mary” and “consecrated to Mary’s heart,” immaculate or otherwise?


6,269 posted on 06/16/2008 2:49:41 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: OLD REGGIE

The ones that didn’t believe walked away.

The ones that did stayed and became the foundation of Christ’s church.


6,270 posted on 06/16/2008 2:50:04 PM PDT by TASMANIANRED (TAZ:Untamed, Unpredictable, Uninhibited.)
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To: papertyger

No Mary, I don’t believe any of that for a minute. Even as an Evangelical I never subjected Catholics to the type of supercilious,doctrinaire, accusations your side practices as a matter of course.”

Me either, I had my questions and I had been taught the same silliness that these people hold onto like it was Scripture itself.

I asked my questions respectfully of people I respected and if they didn’t have the answer, they asked someone who knew or we found out together.

I remember one time when my friends were Catechizing me a woman came to our prayer meeting, she wouldn’t come back because we were too intellectual.


6,271 posted on 06/16/2008 2:50:54 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Here you misinterpret it: It doesn't say Mary is associated with Christ's bearing of the burden of all sin.

And here you add words to distort it to your meaning: It says Mary is associated herself with the act of bearing the burden of all sin with her Son.

Do you really think God doesn't see how the RCC mocks Jesus Christ in this idolatrous tandem redemption?

This IS God's Church. God the Son founded it and God the Holy Spirit guides it. I sincerely doubt He is impressed with your misinterpretations.

6,272 posted on 06/16/2008 2:51:34 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski

Jesus taught entirely orally and that is how the early Church taught.


6,273 posted on 06/16/2008 2:52:15 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Perhaps someone will come along to explain it to you. I could give you links if you want. As for me dancing to your tune? Uh, no. Not now.

Matthew 7:6


6,274 posted on 06/16/2008 2:53:04 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski
Mary is not an idol.

AMEN!

Therefore I urge all my Catholic brothers and sisters to stop praying to Mary, venerating Mary, believing Mary is an intercessor between God and men, believing Mary is a "co-redeemer," kneeling to Mary, building wooden statues of Mary to fall down to, and thinking that they are in any way consecrated by or to or through Mary who most definitely does not shoulder the burden of our sins and who was a fallen, fallible creature like the rest of us, saved by grace alone.

"Flee from idolatry." -- 1 Corinthians 10:14

6,275 posted on 06/16/2008 2:56:21 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Petronski
Does Mary in any way bear (or co-bear) the burden for your sins?
6,276 posted on 06/16/2008 2:59:18 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

There is no idolatry in any of that. A lot of that is not even Catholic teaching.


6,277 posted on 06/16/2008 2:59:40 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: MarkBsnr; 1000 silverlings; Quix; OLD REGGIE; fortheDeclaration; Uncle Chip; Marysecretary
Jesus taught entirely orally and that is how the early Church taught.

lol. Read the Scriptures, Mark. Christ said repeatedly...

"What saith the Scriptures?

6,278 posted on 06/16/2008 3:02:26 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Petronski

Would that were true.


6,279 posted on 06/16/2008 3:03:18 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: MarDav

***Jesus Himself lived a sola scriptura life—or show where He departed from scripture by keeping instead to the traditions of men.***

What Scripture are you referring to here?


6,280 posted on 06/16/2008 3:03:52 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: John Leland 1789

He also argues that Sunday is not the Lord’s Day, the Church is the harlot, and that the Pope is the antiChrist.

Nice.


6,281 posted on 06/16/2008 3:03:55 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION

PROLOGUE

"FATHER, . . . this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."1 "God our Savior desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."2 "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved"3 - than the name of JESUS.

6,282 posted on 06/16/2008 3:04:26 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

It is true.


6,283 posted on 06/16/2008 3:05:20 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Running On Empty

***I received the same “admonition” from the same poster.

Never does such a comment cease to amaze me, especially so when it’s addressed to you personally, as was done to me.***

I wonder what his Judgement Room looks like. Will he have angels serving him and saints praying endlessly to him?


6,284 posted on 06/16/2008 3:06:00 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Petronski

Then someone should tell the RCC to stop encouraging its members to believe Mary shoulders the burden for their sins.


6,285 posted on 06/16/2008 3:06:05 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"Flee from idalotry." -- 1 Corinthians 10:14"

I think this may refer to people who were worshiping the sun, mother nature, Greek Gods, etc. There were entire civilizations that worshiped animals and the like.

I don't see how God would have a problem with our great appreciation of His children that have served him.

We are called to love each other. Not ignore everyone except Jesus.

The following is an interesting article.
"Woman Who Had Near-Death Experience Recalls Surprising Way She Was 'Judged' ...

While we should be prudent with everything we accept, I think it is an insightfull article. It is only for those who believe that Jesus is still with us and continues to enlighten us. Not for Sola Scritura followers.(This article wasn't in the Bible)

6,286 posted on 06/16/2008 3:06:11 PM PDT by mgist (Thus in Psalm 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hear)
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To: tiki; Marysecretary
I asked my questions respectfully of people I respected and if they didn’t have the answer, they asked someone who knew or we found out together.

I remember one time when my friends were Catechizing me a woman came to our prayer meeting, she wouldn’t come back because we were too intellectual.




Oh wow! The "Righteous Catholic" equivalent of the Trilateral Comission. Only the few are deserving of entrance.

"Pride goeth.............."

6,287 posted on 06/16/2008 3:06:22 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE (I am most likely a Biblical Unitarian? Let me be perfectly clear. I know no thing.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

While Christ walked the earth, did He preach or did He write?


6,288 posted on 06/16/2008 3:06:36 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

What is the RCC?


6,289 posted on 06/16/2008 3:08:32 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: MarkBsnr
Please, Dr. E., read the words of Jesus which are as mountains over the words of men.

LOL. And yet you asserted the supremacy of "oral tradition" with you wrote...

Jesus taught entirely orally and that is how the early Church taught.

Seems like you're now confirming the fact that Jesus' ministry has been committed to the written word.

On that, we agree.

6,290 posted on 06/16/2008 3:10:09 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: John Leland 1789

***Dr. Paisely is not trying to build or sustain a movement by telling people that salvation, God’s greatest blessings, or the depths of Christian joy are tied somehow to his own church, denomination or communion table. And that does make a big diffrence to many.***

Well, what has he done?

He created his own church. And has parlayed that status into becoming the head of the Democratic Unionist Party and has been a member of both the British and European Parliaments (kinda reminds me of certain preachers here in that regard).

http://www.ianpaisley.org/antichrist.asp gives Paisley’s full explanation of how the Pope is the anti Christ.

What is he doing? Gathering money and power.


6,291 posted on 06/16/2008 3:18:04 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Petronski

LOL, They are so intent on harm to Catholics that they would rather take the word of someone who believes Jesus isn’t Jesus.

Par for their course. No slander too malicious, no pretended ignorance too fantastic, just as long as those words “prove” their position.

These people who supposedly base their believe on Scripture alone will grasp any straw to defame Catholicism. It is quite sad.


6,292 posted on 06/16/2008 3:19:09 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: OLD REGGIE

***Better to know what you are saying and have a slight spelling definciency than to spell correctly and have a logic deficiency.***

I prefer to have a good knowledge of what I am saying, good spelling and grammar and good logic and reason.

And, by the Grace of God, I am a member of His Church. He has blessed me considerably, I can ask for no more except to be with Him forever.


6,293 posted on 06/16/2008 3:20:48 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

***It was some time ago. I wish that FR had an in-post search function.

I’ll see what Google can come up with.

Some time ago and you still bear the cross of agony. Get over it.***

Some of us have meetings and stuff to go to, but if you insist. I did manage to find the other references you enquired about.


6,294 posted on 06/16/2008 3:22:48 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: papertyger

***So where’s His command to ammend the Scriptures and make them the highest authority.

If it were that important, don’t you think we’d have been given unambiguous instructions?***

You’d think that the hijacking Reformed Holy Spirit would bring a full set during the moment of saving the elect that is perfect and therefore nobody would argue or misunderstand or have hundreds of different Bibles and tens of thousands of different beliefs.


6,295 posted on 06/16/2008 3:26:08 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

***I assure you if I had seen these posts (the last two) I would have taken exception.***

I believe you would. Even though we are on different sides usually. And I thank you for that.

***It is just as bad as the Pope telling us we must be subject to the Roman Pontiff for salvation.***

See?


6,296 posted on 06/16/2008 3:28:41 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarDav

***But, of course, He did tell all those that recorded the books that make up the scriptures to indeed write them down—by His Spirit.***

Where does it say that? Are you making this up? Chapter and verse please.

***Yes. He said at one point to the Jews, “Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.” ***

Testimony is not all encompassing. It by itself does not necessarily consitute proof. It is evidence.

***And, of course later He said, “Follow Me.” ***

To the Apostles, to which He later told them to go to the whole world.


6,297 posted on 06/16/2008 3:31:49 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: OLD REGGIE

***I have unused crutches in my shed, I have several unused orthotics in my closet, and I can’t begin to tell you how many bandages have been discarded in the trash over the years.***

In many cases, the people were carried in and walked out. It’s been a few years, but I remember a bunch of wheelchairs, and at least a couple of stretchers.


6,298 posted on 06/16/2008 3:33:54 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

***”What saith the Scriptures?

Read the Scriptures, Mark. Christ said repeatedly...***

You mean like this?

John 19:
24
So they said to one another, “Let’s not tear it, but cast lots for it to see whose it will be,” in order that the passage of scripture might be fulfilled (that says): “They divided my garments among them, and for my vesture they cast lots.” This is what the soldiers did.

If we look at the timeline, first came the OT, then came Christ (from whence came the Gospels) and then came the rest of the NT. Perhaps there is some difficulty in understanding the sequence of events that I can help with.


6,299 posted on 06/16/2008 3:45:18 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

***Please, Dr. E., read the words of Jesus which are as mountains over the words of men.

LOL. And yet you asserted the supremacy of “oral tradition” with you wrote...***

Ummm, the oral tradition taught the words of the Lord.

***Jesus taught entirely orally and that is how the early Church taught.

Seems like you’re now confirming the fact that Jesus’ ministry has been committed to the written word.***

Your ears to hear may have had the batteries turned off. The written word includes Scripture and the Catechism.


6,300 posted on 06/16/2008 3:48:58 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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