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The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

Some of you will remember my recent decision to become a Catholic. I suppose I should be surprised it ended getting derailed into a 'Catholic vs. Protestant' thread, but after going further into the Religion forum, I suppose it's par for the course.

There seems to be a bit of big issue concerning Mary. I wanted to share an observation of sorts.

Now...although I was formerly going by 'Sola Scriptura', my father was born and raised Catholic, so I do have some knowledge of Catholic doctrine (not enough, at any rate...so consider all observations thusly).

Mary as a 'co-redeemer', Mary as someone to intercede for us with regards to our Lord Jesus.

Now...I can definitely see how this would raise some hairs. After all, Jesus Himself said that He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that none come to the Father but through Him. I completely agree.

I do notice a bit of a fundamental difference in perception though. Call it a conflict of POV. Do Catholics worship Mary (as I've seen a number of Protestants proclaim), or do they rather respect and venerate her (as I've seen Catholics claim)? Note that it's one thing to regard someone with reverence; I revere President Bush as the noted leader of the free world. I revere my father. I revere Dr. O'Neil, a humorous and brilliant math teacher at my university. It's an act of respect.

But do I WORSHIP them?

No. Big difference between respecting/revering and worshiping. At least, that's how I view it.

I suppose it's also a foible to ask Mary to pray for us, on our behalf...but don't we tend to also ask other people to pray for us? Doesn't President Bush ask for people to pray for him? Don't we ask our family members to pray for us for protection while on a trip? I don't see quite a big disconnect between that and asking Mary to help pray for our wellbeing.

There is some question to the fact that she is physically dead. Though it stands to consider that she is still alive, in Heaven. Is it not common practice to not just regard our physical life, but to regard most of all our spirit, our soul? That which survives the flesh before ascending to Heaven or descending to Hell after God's judgment?

I don't think it's that big of a deal. I could change my mind after reading more in-depth, but I don't think that the Catholic Church has decreed via papal infallibility that Mary is to be placed on a higher pedestal than Jesus, or even to be His equal.

Do I think she is someone to be revered and respected? Certainly. She is the mother of Jesus, who knew Him for His entire life as a human on Earth. Given that He respected her (for He came to fulfill the old laws; including 'Honor Thy Father and Mother'), I don't think it's unnatural for other humans to do the same. I think it's somewhat presumptuous to regard it on the same level as idolatry or supplanting Jesus with another.

In a way, I guess the way Catholics treat Mary and the saints is similar to how the masses treated the Apostles following the Resurrection and Jesus's Ascension: people who are considered holy in that they have a deep connection with Jesus and His Word, His Teachings, His Message. As the Apostles spread the Good News and are remembered and revered to this day for their work, so to are the works of those sainted remembered and revered. Likewise with Mary. Are the Apostles worshiped? No. That's how it holds with Mary and the saints.

At least, that's how my initial thoughts on the subject are. I'll have to do more reading.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; mary; rcc; romancatholic
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To: MarDav

I asked some questions, will you answer them?


6,351 posted on 06/16/2008 8:57:12 PM PDT by tiki (True Christians will not deliberately slander or misrepresent others or their beliefs)
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To: MarDav

***Not exactly, not an audible voice, if that’s what you are referring to. The Lord communicates through prayer***

Are you saying that the Lord prays to you?

***When you are in a relationship with someone, you talk.***

Prayer is you talking to God. How does the Lord communicate with you?

***A favorite verse of mine is in Jeremiah 29, verse 13 “And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.” That is God talking, no?***

It is Scripture. You read it; how does it talk to you?

***That is God talking, no? He is saying (promising) that when we dilegently search for Him with a true heart, we will find Him. That’s just what the Lord Jesus did. He came to seek and to save that which was lost. He came with a heart that was perfect, loving, seeking.***

You said that He talks to you. How does He do that, with you?

***Why wouldn’t He continue to demonstrate that love, reveal it, let His loved one know just how much s/he means to Him? ***

Never said that He wouldn’t. How does He reveal it to you?

I am seeing responses here that the Biblioters give. I had a different opinion of your faith previously.


6,352 posted on 06/16/2008 9:02:40 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: John Leland 1789

***“Christians are not autonomous.”

Misrepresentation of what I said. I said nothing about the “Christians.” True Christians, regardless of earthly affiliation, or no earthly affiliation at all, are attached to Jesus Christ and sealed by the Spirit of God — ALL an operation of God, not of man, nor of any visible church on the earth.***

You said that you had worked to create three autonomous churches. No church is autonomous - all churches are under the authority of the bishop appointed by God. Do these churches have a bishop?

***When God seals an idividual, that seal lasts forever.***

The seal is a mark of God; the seal of the beast is also a mark. No guarantees; we have the ability to walk away from Christ; we have, with God’s Grace, the ability to walk away from the beast.

***Visible churches on earth come, and they go.***

The One Church stays and watches the others come and go.


6,353 posted on 06/16/2008 9:06:41 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: paterfamilias

I believe Mary had been the recipient of previous miracles of Jesus and knew exactly what He is capable of doing. He would not disobey His mother. I don’t know about Mary’s death because of the prophecies written about her in Revelation. I envy Mary her faith and her humble submission to the Father’s commands. She truly is a blessed woman, and I know if anyone were to kneel to her, she would tell them the same thing Paul and Peter and John would have said. Only Jesus accepted any kind of worship. The scripture you quote, reveals Jesus as Son of Man, and nothing about Jesus as King of Kings and LORD of Lords, ruler with the Almighty.


6,354 posted on 06/16/2008 9:12:33 PM PDT by huldah1776 ( Worthy is the Lamb)
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To: MarkBsnr
“No church is autonomous”

Yes, Biblical churches are autonomous from man-made hierarchies and denominations.

” - all churches are under the authority of the bishop appointed by God. Do these churches have a bishop?”

All of these churches have their own bishop (1 Timothy ch. 3), and deacons. And they have other pastors and teachers (Ephesians 4) as well. And these bishops were called and placed there by God, and it is very obvious to the members of those churches that it is so.

“The seal is a mark of God; the seal of the beast is also a mark. No guarantees; we have the ability to walk away from Christ; we have, with God’s Grace, the ability to walk away from the beast.” (MarkBsnr)

As long as we all know what you believe. We understand that that is what the Catholic Church has taught you, but we disagree that it has anything to do with Biblical Truth. There is nothing in 2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; Ephesians 1:13; 4:30 (etc.) that indicates the seal can be broken, and actually, it appears quite to the contrary.

“The One Church stays and watches the others come and go.”

But that one doesn't matter, it is merely a visible earthly organization of political religionists in our view, and since we are partakers of Christ Himself, personally and in reality, once-and-forever, we don't need such a church that might try to wrongly teach us that the seal with which the Holy Ghost hath sealed us can be broken.

And actually, perpetuity (IF someone is looking for something visible all the time) of doctrine and practice since the Apostolic days, can be found in a dozen movements of Christians, all of whom could make the same claim as Rome, but alas, they never went into political kingdom building.

6,355 posted on 06/16/2008 10:16:27 PM PDT by John Leland 1789
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To: MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; OLD REGGIE
Gee, you seem very upset about me stating the facts about what will happen if you reject the free Grace of the Gospel.

I would tell that to anyone who rejects it that they are going to hell.

You believe in a different Gospel, faith plus works and therefore have rejected the true Gospel.

If you told me I were going to hell for rejecting the RCC gospel it wouldn't affect me for one second.

Giving the true Gospel is telling those who aren't saved that they are lost and going to hell if they reject the truth of God's FREE gift of salvation.

You have been warned, your blood isn't on my hands.

And any of my Christian brethren who would tell you anything less would not be giving you true Gospel.

6,356 posted on 06/16/2008 10:34:19 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: John Leland 1789

Amen brother, thank you for the post!


6,357 posted on 06/16/2008 10:35:56 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: TASMANIANRED
You can call Christ a liar if you wish, if that is your personal interpretation, but you do it at your own peril.

That is what the scriptures actually teach.

It is you that blasphemes God everytime you think that you have changed a wafer into Him!

LOL!

6,358 posted on 06/16/2008 10:39:17 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Christians are called by God to imitate Christ.

Actually, we are called to FOLLOW Christ, never to 'imitate' Him, something we cannot do.

6,359 posted on 06/16/2008 10:41:42 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: OLD REGGIE; Dr. Eckleburg; MarkBsnr
If fortheDeclaration made an absolute unqualified, statement that you were going to hell I will join you in condemming the hubris involved. Not one of us can claim to know the "future" of another. I wish you could identify a post or two which justify your claim. I don't doubt your honesty but I sometimes doubt your ability to objectively interpret what was actually said.

Sorry brother, but if someone professes a different Gospel, he is on the way to hell.

No different than a Moslem, Hindu, Mormon etc.

He has stated that he rejects the true Gospel of salvation by faith alone and has therefore proudly proclaimed his own condemnation by following the RCC Gospel.

If he doesn't like to hear the consequences of that Gospel, let him repent of it and receive the free gift of salvation by faith alone in Christ alone. Lets stop all the ecumenical game playing and be honest that those who reject the true Gospel are heading to a real hell, based on what they have admitted believing.

On what basis would you state that he wouldn't be going to hell for not believing the Gospel that we are saved by?

6,360 posted on 06/16/2008 10:53:11 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: OLD REGGIE; papertyger; Dr. Eckleburg
Lets be honest on what each side thinks of the other!

All these pretender Christians never answer for their own inconsistencies by making it a point to constantly accuse real Christians. 5,984 posted on Monday, June 16, 2008 9:40:39 AM by papertyger

Either the RCC gospel is true or the scriptural one is true-they can't both be true.

Thus, you are either saved or lost based on receiving the true Gospel.

God the Father isn't going to 'look at your heart' He is going to see if you have been washed in the Blood of His Son and received the free gift of salvation.

That is what gets your name in the Book of life and if that name isn't in that Book, you will be face the wrath of God.

6,361 posted on 06/16/2008 11:01:11 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: MarkBsnr; OLD REGGIE
***I was told by a poster here numerous times that I am going to hell. I think that is a terrible thing for anyone to say, although I don’t recall seeing such a thing here. (I admit I am forgetfull though.) :) I don’t believe it would be a breach of confidentiality if you identified that poster and pinged her/him so I, and I am sure others, can join in in condemnation of such a terrible thing.*** Sure. It was fortheDeclaration.

That sure upset you!

Exactly what it was suppose to do and that is why Christ preached more on Hell than He did on Heaven.

Remember that line from the act of contrition, 'because I fear the loss of heaven and the pains of hell'

I didn't say you had to go to hell, only that you were if you continued to put your trust in a false Gospel, faith plus works.

6,362 posted on 06/16/2008 11:08:29 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
As the link states, "Jesus and the New Testament writers never once quote the Apocrypha, although there are hundreds of quotes and references to almost the entire book of the Old Testament." Among those who rejected the Apocrypha were Josephus, Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius and Jerome. Like so many errors, the Apocrypha was not deemed "orthodox" until the Council of Trent. And we know why Trent was conducted -- to end the Reformation. What better way than to assemble questionable materials and put the imprinteur of God on the errors they contain?

Amen and amen!

6,363 posted on 06/16/2008 11:11:10 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: Quix
My immortal soul is very secure in Jesus, in His Blood covering; in my walk with Him as my Lord and Savior, led of His Spirit as well as I can manage to cooperate—that too being covered by His Blood and Love.

Amen.

6,364 posted on 06/16/2008 11:12:07 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
LOL. God COULD inspire in Pig Latin, but He didn't. I'll stick with the Jewish canon as the Jews received and delivered it; not with Rome's rewrite centuries later by way of the Greeks.

Amen.

All scripture was written by the Jews in both Hebrew (Old Testament) and the New (Greek) 'What advantage have the Jew....chiefly that unto to them were committed the oracles of God' (Rom.3:2)

6,365 posted on 06/16/2008 11:16:36 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: 1000 silverlings
Simple, they were unbelievers in the first place,only following him to see some easy miracle, read the whole chapter.

Amen.

6,366 posted on 06/16/2008 11:18:10 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: Marysecretary
Indeed. I only care what Christ thinks, not the Councils nor some of our brethren who disagree so vehemently with us.

That is correct sister, we must willing to go outside the camp and bear His reproach (Heb.13:13) and be willing even to reject one's own family (Matt.10:37)

6,367 posted on 06/16/2008 11:32:11 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: MarkBsnr
You keep saying this and then you keep reverting back to the gospel of misunderstood Paul.

And you keep saying that I am misunderstanding Paul, which I am not.

Eternity will reveal who really understood Paul.

6,368 posted on 06/16/2008 11:36:37 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: MarkBsnr
Ah, ignoring verse once again. I quoted extensive Paul (and not misunderstood Paul) in order to show you what we believe, and what a true Bible Believer should believe. You have largely ignored it and posted duelling verse. You see how you have ignored the mathematical operator “and”? We do not cherry pick - we include all verse.

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

Phil 2:12 means that the Christian needs to keep going in the process of salvation with ‘fear and trembling’ - a common Old Testament expression indicating awe and seriousness in the service of God (cf Exodus 15:16; Judith 2:28; Psalm 2:11; Isaiah 19:16).

And who is disputing that service ought to serious?

And don't throw in non-scriptural books like Judith as a proof-text for anything! ***Judgement Seat in which the Christian will be judged for his works on earth *** And what do you think that the ramifications will be for that Judgement?

At that Judgement for the saved, rewards or loss of rewards (1Cor.3)

[ ***Salvation is an event, not a process. Sanctification is a process, but one grows because one IS saved, not TO BE saved or to STAY saved***]

Methinks that you have things backwards and have reversed cause and effect.

No, and that is what makes my Gospel correct and yours a false one.

You are working for your salvation, which you cannot earn or merit.

[ ***If you are placing your confidence in anything other than the shed Blood of Christ for your eternal salvation, you have nullified grace and are not saved, since you are saved by grace and not works, else grace is no longer grace. ***]

Without the Grace of God, we cannot be saved.

That is what I said, but you nullify the grace of God when you add works to it.

Now to him that worketh is the reward of grace, but of debt, But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Rom.4:4-5)

And that is the Paul that you are claiming I am misunderstanding.

Works cancel out grace, and it is of faith that it might be of grace (Rom.4:16a)

Now, there is no further reason for you and I to continue to post to one another.

You are trusting the Roman Catholic Church, I am trusting the word of God.

We will see in eternity which one was gave us the true Gospel.

6,369 posted on 06/16/2008 11:52:18 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: MarkBsnr
***And if you reject the grace of God, as you state you have, you are (according to the Gospel I believe) going to Hell.*** I do not reject the Grace of God and have never stated it. Are you mistaken or are you telling lies? ***Two different Gospels, only one is right, choose the wrong one and end up damned.*** You have repeatedly claimed that your misunderstanding of Paul is your gospel. We follow the Gospel of Jesus Christ. ***If you believe your Church has the true Gospel (faith plus works) you shouldn’t be upset about anything I say about your eternal state, I am not upset about anything you say about mine!*** No man can know another’s eternal state. Only those that the brightest angel has deluded can claim that.

Ofcourse one can know another's eternal state, if doesn't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ he is going to hell! (Jn.3:36).

It must be by faith alone (not of works) because he makes faith null and void since grace and works are mutually exclusive (Rom.4:5-6).

So, if one tells me that they have rejected the true Gospel of Christ,(faith alone in Christ alone), I do know, as any believer knows, their eternal state, since scripture says what it will be.

6,370 posted on 06/16/2008 11:57:31 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: MarkBsnr
[***You composed quite a few posts Judging me. Have you repented? Are you saved?***]

I notice that you do not indicate repentence or even shame. However, I will answer, as all good Catholics ought.

Repent of what, telling you the truth?

I am not the one 'judging you' the word of God is.

I do note that you call yourself a Catholic and not a Christian.

Which is good, because there is a difference. As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).

How someone can say that they are saved and yet hope to be saved is really amazing!

If you are depending on what the Roman Catholic Church teaches regarding salvation, you are going to be very disappointed in eternity.

But at least you received the true Gospel on these threads, but you have chosen to reject it for the false gospel of Roman Catholicism (Gal.1)

6,371 posted on 06/17/2008 12:05:21 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: Always Right
[Does Catholicism preach the same Gospel as Protestants or not?]

When the Bible explains what the Gospel is, it defines it as the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus. So, I would say Catholicism does preach the same Gospel.

And that same Bible states the difference between faith and works, and that the Gospel can only be received by faith. (Rom.4:4-5, Eph.2:8-9).

Any gospel that preaches any mixture of the two is preaching a false gospel that cannot save, which Paul called accursed (Gal.1)

6,372 posted on 06/17/2008 12:08:24 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: MarkBsnr

2Cor.2:
15 For we are the good odour of Christ unto God, in them that are saved and in them that perish.

http://www.newadvent.org/bible/2co002.htm


6,373 posted on 06/17/2008 12:15:40 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: MarkBsnr

5 But to him that worketh not, yet believeth in him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reputed to justice, according to the purpose of the grace of God.
http://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom004.htm


6,374 posted on 06/17/2008 12:19:21 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: fortheDeclaration
so YOU are the only one with the "true" gospel?

But at least you received the true Gospel on these threads, but you have chosen to reject it for the false gospel of Roman Catholicism (Gal.1)

Surely, you are not implying that Gal 1 states that Roman Catholicism is false? It says no such thing.

6,375 posted on 06/17/2008 12:35:58 AM PDT by tioga
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To: OLD REGGIE
I'm impressed with the tone of loving kindness displayed here.

How about "Haughty Hate"?

Perhaps you should consult my tagline.

There is nothing haughty about being repulsed by the stench of a smoker though they can't smell it themselves.

6,376 posted on 06/17/2008 3:27:32 AM PDT by papertyger (What Would Jesus Do? ... Remember "freak out and turn over tables," is a valid option ;o)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Ah, that's an easy one. It is because Protestants on this forum really try to abide by the rules and not make this personal.

What a farce. The rules are, by their nature, favorable to anti-Catholic bigots.

Your side constantly makes it personal by accusing a nebulous RCC edifice to which your targets belong by default.

Your use of the term "sado-evangelist" when speaking to an individual is contrary to the rules of FR.

And of course I haven't done that, or my posts with that term would have been pulled, now wouldn't they.

But you already know that, don't you?

Further, your obvious pride in that terms speaks volumes.

It does do a spectacular job of conveying the perverse character of the "accusers for Jesus"

Nevertheless, the term is not of my invention, so "pride," much as some would dearly wish was a component of my usage, is an empty accusation.

6,377 posted on 06/17/2008 3:56:17 AM PDT by papertyger (What Would Jesus Do? ... Remember "freak out and turn over tables," is a valid option ;o)
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To: MarkBsnr

“...The Lord communicates through prayer***”
You said:
Are you saying that the Lord prays to you?

When you pray, do you ever wait (listen) for the answer? Why is that not plain to you?

You said,
“It is Scripture. You read it; how does it talk to you?”

It is the very nature of scripture to speak to the one reading it. When you read something, you comprehend its import. Well, the scriptures are the Word of God!

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

God’s word taught me about myself. Through His Spirit, the word cut into me with its truth, contending with my spirit, convicting me of my sin, convincing me of His goodness and mercy, persuading me of His Truth, His righteousness, revealing to me His Son. Now, after receiving salvation, it continues to work in me (on me) by reminding me day by day of God’s will for my life. Jesus took the basin of water and went around washing the disciples’ feet. To Peter He said, “He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.” Peter was not in need of the washing of regeneration (he had already obtained it in professing Christ as His Savior), but he needed the cleansing of his feet (daily, don’t you suppose?) Now, forward to Ephesians 5, “Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.” Those in Christ need the daily washing of water by the word that they might be cleansed. The word is instructive in this regard, as the psalmist has said, “Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by taking heed thereto according to thy word.”

There are many other examples to be found of the efficacy of scripture. When the believer reads it, it instructs him it admonishes him, it exhorts him, it rebukes him, it commends him. It talks to him!


6,378 posted on 06/17/2008 3:58:28 AM PDT by MarDav
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To: tiki

Are the scriptures I have cited not in the bible you rely upon? If not, which ones? If so, are there any I have mishandled, misrepresented?


6,379 posted on 06/17/2008 4:06:07 AM PDT by MarDav
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To: MarDav
Absolutely false. Jesus said, "the Spirit testifies of Me." There is no going outside of Scripture when God, by His Spirit, inspires the human authors of Scripture to pen His word. It is the revealed word of God, just as Jesus is the incarnate Word. Thus, proving one need (must) not go outside of scripture for direction.

You really do have my sincerest sympathies. You see I understand your position is completely untennable, even if you don't.

Acknowledging the Spirit's inspiration of human authors says absolutely nothing about the content of the revelation, and the fact is there is no revelation in the Scripture authorizing sola scriptura.

Or do you believe as some that God cannot successfully communicate His word by His Spirit through human authorship?

So why is it so preposterous that God can successfully communicate through the human agency of the Church?

You can't have yours without giving me mine.

6,380 posted on 06/17/2008 4:28:08 AM PDT by papertyger (What Would Jesus Do? ... Remember "freak out and turn over tables," is a valid option ;o)
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To: papertyger

You, and a few others may have misunderstood my intent. By saying, “There is no going outside of Scripture when God, by His Spirit, inspires the human authors of His Scripture to pen His word,” I am simply stating that it is then that those writers cease to become conduits of their own thoughts and are now indicating the thoughts of God. The scripture verses I cited were to indicate that this is what God does. He communicates His thoughts. He has used human instruments to do so.

When you speak of an institution acting in this same capacity, I would say, “With God, all things are possible.” But, that would not be enough to “give you yours.” That institution’s members would have to be operating in such a way as to be fully inspired by the Holy Spirit of God and acting in one voice in such a way as to be of one mind in matters concerning God’s revelation of Himself. They would, likewise, have to be completely consistent with God’s character, nature, person, work, as well as completely in line with every jot and tittle of His previously revealed word.


6,381 posted on 06/17/2008 4:40:27 AM PDT by MarDav
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Thank you:)


6,382 posted on 06/17/2008 4:46:19 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: MarDav
If so, are there any I have mishandled, misrepresented?

Are there any instances where you see that there might be questions about how you have dealt with or interpreted or applied certain verses?

For example, you quote:Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

How do you know that that refers to the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testament? "The Word of God" does not necessarily or clearly denote only the Scriptures.

Similarly, while I'd entertain an argument that the quote from Psalm 119 refers to the Torah, I don't see that it indisputably refers to the Tanakh, much less to the NT.

I don't want to say, "You have mishandled this or that," but I can say that I think the conclusions you draw from the verses you cite are not proved by the verses.

6,383 posted on 06/17/2008 4:54:34 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: fortheDeclaration
God the Father isn't going to 'look at your heart' He is going to see if you have been washed in the Blood of His Son and received the free gift of salvation.

So all those warnings Jesus gave regarding unprofitable servents were for nothing.

And don't give me the "well they weren't really saved" business, either. Those warnings are specifically designed to demonstrate the only differences were the level of service. Injecting any other differences is nothing but a cynical attempt to preserve a failed doctrine.

6,384 posted on 06/17/2008 5:06:24 AM PDT by papertyger (What Would Jesus Do? ... Remember "freak out and turn over tables," is a valid option ;o)
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To: papertyger
So all those warnings Jesus gave regarding unprofitable servents were for nothing. And don't give me the "well they weren't really saved" business, either. Those warnings are specifically designed to demonstrate the only differences were the level of service. Injecting any other differences is nothing but a cynical attempt to preserve a failed doctrine.

What part of 'not of works' don't you understand?

6,385 posted on 06/17/2008 5:35:44 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: tioga
so YOU are the only one with the "true" gospel?

No, there are plenty of others who have believed the true Gospel.

[ But at least you received the true Gospel on these threads, but you have chosen to reject it for the false gospel of Roman Catholicism (Gal.1) ]

Surely, you are not implying that Gal 1 states that Roman Catholicism is false? It says no such thing.

Galatians is a book condemning those who preached a false gospel, mixing faith with works.

If you reject sola fide, you reject the true Gospel, it is just that simple.

6,386 posted on 06/17/2008 5:38:33 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: MarDav
I am simply stating that it is then that those writers cease to become conduits of their own thoughts and are now indicating the thoughts of God.

That's all well and good, except you have no biblical texts to validate your rather detailed claims. The verses you cite are far more ambiguous than your usage would indicate.

But, that would not be enough to "give you yours."

Sure it would. Exceptions to every one of your self-imposed institutional "qualifiers" CAN be demonstrated from Scripture.

For example no one can deny God revealed much through David, yet he could hardly be said to be "completely consistent with God’s character, nature, person, work, as well as completely in line with every jot and tittle of His previously revealed word."

6,387 posted on 06/17/2008 5:38:53 AM PDT by papertyger (What Would Jesus Do? ... Remember "freak out and turn over tables," is a valid option ;o)
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To: papertyger

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the pool of fire.

http://www.newadvent.org/bible/rev020.htm


6,388 posted on 06/17/2008 5:44:55 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Christus)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
PETRONSKI: It does not. Are you blind? It says we are consecrated to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. Not to Mary, to Mary's Immaculate Heart.

All of his one line snipes and he posts something like this. Where is that picture of WTF cat when you need it?

6,389 posted on 06/17/2008 5:46:50 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Obamafeld, "A CAMPAIGN ABOUT NOTHING".)
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To: fortheDeclaration
What part of 'not of works' don't you understand?

The part that gets His servant thrown into "utter darkness."

6,390 posted on 06/17/2008 5:49:28 AM PDT by papertyger (What Would Jesus Do? ... Remember "freak out and turn over tables," is a valid option ;o)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
God willed that Mary should be intimately associated with His Son in bearing the burden of all sin; surely then, her Immaculate Heart, in union with His divine Heart, should receive reparation from us who have caused them such pain.

Mary bears the burden of our sins with Christ, and therefore she "deserves" "reparation."

Ungodly lies that direct our eyes from Christ alone back onto the creature. There are few sins greater.

Thanks for the ping. This stuff is unbelievable. I was thinking of some of your findings from yesterday and your efforts to point out what these RC writings are saying. Yet those efforts seem to fall on deaf ears. It's little wonder that the Word of God has no effect when words don't seem to have any meaning. We come to a point where the debate starts to seem a bit futile.

6,391 posted on 06/17/2008 5:50:19 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Obamafeld, "A CAMPAIGN ABOUT NOTHING".)
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To: MarDav
When you speak of an institution acting in this same capacity, I would say, “With God, all things are possible.” But, that would not be enough to “give you yours.” That institution’s members would have to be operating in such a way as to be fully inspired by the Holy Spirit of God and acting in one voice in such a way as to be of one mind in matters concerning God’s revelation of Himself. They would, likewise, have to be completely consistent with God’s character, nature, person, work, as well as completely in line with every jot and tittle of His previously revealed word.

Sez who? ;-)

Seriously: Every member of a hospital has to be well before the hospital can practice medicine effectively? Where do you find that all the Christians at the time of the council of Jerusalem were acting in such a way that those in the council were right to think of themselves as inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Did God judge Israel through Samson? Were Jeremiah and Isaiah ANd their religious communities "Operating in such a way as to be fully inspired"? Isn't this works righteousness in the final analysis?

I don't see that this notion has its basis in Scripture. To judge by what the Bible tells us happened in the early Church there was disagreement and misunderstanding of God's will regarding Gentiles, and yet God spoke through the Council, and did so so clearly that the Council claimed that what was said "Seemed good to the Holy Spirit."

6,392 posted on 06/17/2008 5:54:47 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: fortheDeclaration
Galatians is a book condemning those who preached a false gospel, mixing faith with works.

I'm always intrigued at how "of the law" always gets edited out of any screed about "works."

6,393 posted on 06/17/2008 5:58:28 AM PDT by papertyger (What Would Jesus Do? ... Remember "freak out and turn over tables," is a valid option ;o)
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To: John Leland 1789

***Yes, Biblical churches are autonomous from man-made hierarchies and denominations.***

All the NT churches were started by Church officials acting within the Church. There were no authorized churches begun in any Scripture.

***All of these churches have their own bishop (1 Timothy ch. 3), and deacons. And they have other pastors and teachers (Ephesians 4) as well. And these bishops were called and placed there by God, and it is very obvious to the members of those churches that it is so.***

How were these bishops called and placed by God? Did Ian Paisley get called and placed? How about Jeremiah Wright?

***We understand that that is what the Catholic Church has taught you, but we disagree that it has anything to do with Biblical Truth. There is nothing in 2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; Ephesians 1:13; 4:30 (etc.) that indicates the seal can be broken, and actually, it appears quite to the contrary.***

Rev 7:
1 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, 2 holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on land or sea or against any tree.
2
Then I saw another angel come up from the East, 3 holding the seal of the living God. He cried out in a loud voice to the four angels who were given power to damage the land and the sea,
3
“Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”
4
I heard the number of those who had been marked with the seal, one hundred and forty-four thousand marked 4 from every tribe of the Israelites:
5
twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Judah, 5 twelve thousand from the tribe of Reuben, twelve thousand from the tribe of Gad,
6
twelve thousand from the tribe of Asher, twelve thousand from the tribe of Naphtali, twelve thousand from the tribe of Manasseh,
7
twelve thousand from the tribe of Simeon, twelve thousand from the tribe of Levi, twelve thousand from the tribe of Issachar,
8
twelve thousand from the tribe of Zebulun, twelve thousand from the tribe of Joseph, and twelve thousand were marked from the tribe of Benjamin.
9
After this I had a vision of a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation, race, people, and tongue. They stood before the throne and before the Lamb, wearing white robes and holding palm branches 6 in their hands.
10
They cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation comes from 7 our God, who is seated on the throne, and from the Lamb.”
11
All the angels stood around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They prostrated themselves before the throne, worshiped God,
12
and exclaimed: “Amen. Blessing and glory, wisdom and thanksgiving, honor, power, and might be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
13
Then one of the elders spoke up and said to me, “Who are these wearing white robes, and where did they come from?”
14
I said to him, “My lord, you are the one who knows.” He said to me, “These are the ones who have survived the time of great distress; 8 they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15
“For this reason they stand before God’s throne and worship him day and night in his temple. The one who sits on the throne will shelter them.
16
They will not hunger or thirst anymore, nor will the sun or any heat strike them.
17
For the Lamb who is in the center of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to springs of life-giving water, 9 and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”

The seal is a mark or sigil, like one imprints on a letter. The seal goes on those who are saved. After they are saved, not before.

***But that one doesn’t matter, it is merely a visible earthly organization of political religionists in our view, and since we are partakers of Christ Himself, personally and in reality, once-and-forever, we don’t need such a church that might try to wrongly teach us that the seal with which the Holy Ghost hath sealed us can be broken.***

Your definition of ‘seal’ is wrong. It is not a plastic baggie.

***And actually, perpetuity (IF someone is looking for something visible all the time) of doctrine and practice since the Apostolic days, can be found in a dozen movements of Christians, all of whom could make the same claim as Rome, but alas, they never went into political kingdom building.***

There is only one Church of Jesus Christ, that has existed since Pentecost. All others are churches of men.


6,394 posted on 06/17/2008 6:00:21 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: fortheDeclaration; MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg; OLD REGGIE
You believe in a different Gospel, faith plus works and therefore have rejected the true Gospel.

Amen brother.

We are commanded to preach The Gospel.

Mark 16:15 And He Said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

Before the "we believe that too crowd" starts look at Trent and see what they must believe in order to be RC.

Canon 24: "If any one saith, that the justice received is not preserved and also increased before God through good works; but that the said works are merely the fruits and signs of Justification obtained, but not a cause of the increase thereof; let him be anathema."

CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed."

6,395 posted on 06/17/2008 6:02:47 AM PDT by wmfights (Believe - THE GOSPEL - and be saved)
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To: Mad Dawg

I would have copied and pasted the Bible in its entirety, but I think that would have been a bit much (;>}

I use scripture in my answers because I do not want to “mess up” what the Lord has said, mishandling or misrepresenting, notwithstanding—I am fallible, human and need to be checked, just as anyone else would. And that, I suppose, is the point. If the scriptures instruct us in this way or in that, and the scriptures are God’s word, then we owe it to our own eternal souls to listen to what they have to say (one was asking me if God “spoke” to me, and if so, how?—I think He was believing me to be getting some “special messages from above” or something). How do I know if the scriptures say what they say about a given area (grace, salvation, sin, etc)? I read them, I check them against other scriptures, I consider what other professing Christians have to say, I check them again, I re-read them, and on and on. Ultimately, God’s word settles the matter: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
God promised His followers that He would give to them His Spirit, Who is able to guide them into all truth...Who testifies of Me (Christ). God has given communication to man for as long as His special creation has been around (Adam communed with God in the garden) He is a revelatory God; for some reason He desires fellowship with His special creation:

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;”

It is in God’s nature to communicate. To speak.

You said,, “The Word of God” does not necessarily or clearly denote only the Scriptures.” I am not sure what you are trying to indicate here, but I know one on this thread was pointing out how Jesus “spoke” when He was revealing the mind of God, and I suppose the conclusion of the matter for that poster was that this means that all of scripture, all that God has to communicate, all that God has revealed of His full mind, His full intent, His full will has not been written down for us (I am not trying to put words in your mouth, feel free to clarify). To that I can only say, Amen, with a caveat. The Queen of Sheba, when she beheld Solomon’s wealth and wisdom concluded, “Surely, the half hath not been told!” Likewise, things concerning His will and intents for the future are part of His unfolding plan (prophetic books, such as The Revelation contain things that will become apparent, but are simply not fully apparent just now). But God has revealed in His scripture all that is necessary for things pertaining to salvation (2Tim. 3:15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.)
The test, though, of whether something is or is not of God is that it must be brought up against what is known of God—His word. When I try to discern if something is like God, how do I discern this? I take it and place it against what I know about God. I can, I suppose, place it against what someone else has said about God and rely upon that one’s authority, but if I want to know for myself (it is, after all, my eternal soul that is at issue in these matters), I must do the assaying (and God, by His Spirit, graciously reveals Himself:

Phil. 3:10-15 “That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.”

I can, of course, draw lessons from history, look to those in the past who have made similar inquiries. But I still need to be sure that they have made their inquiries based on valid suppositions, evidences, etc. and that their intent was to discern the mind of God and not mishandle/misrepresent.

There are no private interpretations (so any conclusions I or someone else draws from scripture must be checked), but there are depths of understanding. I’m a school teacher. I have ‘A’ students, ‘B’ students, and you can go right on down the line. Each one has a level of understanding, an intellect. Was each accountable for what was on the final exam? You betcha. Did each pass? No. Did each receive the same grade? Uh-uh. Did some do better than others? Well, now, that’s an interesting question. I had some ‘B’ students who were actually a bit disappointing, and I had some ‘D’ students who were a pleasant surprise. Both students were able to enter into the joy of 11th grade! Likewise, with believers. All enter into the joy of the Lord (I’m talking about those who have accepted Christ as Savior), but not all with the same understanding. Some will not fully grasp the nature of grace the way others might, for example. Does God look disfavorably upon those that don’t fully understand? Only if they were not using the measure of grace God had given them to understand.

While it may well be true, as you point out, the verse from Psalm 119 may be pointing specifically to the Torah (how many of the histories, wisdom books, prophtetic books were written at the time? Not to mention, none of the NT), yet the application of what the psalmist mentions is indeed valid for all of scripture (the NT verse in Ephesians 5 I cited indicates the church is to cleanse itself by the “washing of water of the word”—the principle established in the Old is continued in the New. I’m not sure I see how that can be viewed any other way, as, when scripture is compared with scripture, there is consistency.


6,396 posted on 06/17/2008 6:07:32 AM PDT by MarDav
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To: fortheDeclaration

***Gee, you seem very upset about me stating the facts about what will happen if you reject the free Grace of the Gospel.***

I guess that you haven’t been reading my responses very closely. I’m more amused at arrogance and hubris than anything else. I’m also amused at the anti Christian behaviour demonstrated by supposedly Christian individuals.

***Giving the true Gospel is telling those who aren’t saved that they are lost and going to hell if they reject the truth of God’s FREE gift of salvation.***

I don’t think that you understand what the true Gospel is. Your posts reference little Gospel.

***You have been warned, your blood isn’t on my hands.***

Nice of Your Highness to warn me. The brightest angel must be so proud.


6,397 posted on 06/17/2008 6:15:43 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: papertyger

“For example no one can deny God revealed much through David, yet he could hardly be said to be “completely consistent with God’s character, nature, person, work, as well as completely in line with every jot and tittle of His previously revealed word.”

True. And it during the times when David’s character is inconsistent with the character and nature of God, that he is to be ignored, rejected (sorry about that, David). But, how would one know when those times occur? Would it not be by checking David’s character and nature against that of God’s? And, how would this be accomplished? Would it not be by seeking to know, understand, confirm the nature and character of God? And how would one do that?


6,398 posted on 06/17/2008 6:18:56 AM PDT by MarDav
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To: DungeonMaster
Yet those efforts seem to fall on deaf ears. It's little wonder that the Word of God has no effect when words don't seem to have any meaning. We come to a point where the debate starts to seem a bit futile.

Somebody put up a list of, what appellations for Mary, including the famous "Gentile . Lady". I asked what in particular was wrong with them.

As far as I can tell, I received not one answer.

And you call this a "debate"? This is no debate.

I put up an analogy asking whether to note the beauty of the moon is to somehow fail to appreciate the greatness of the sun. Not one response from those who disagree with us. This is you idea of "debate"?

Others post cartoons. You call that "debate"?

I can see how this quote could be understood in a way which troubles those who over the Lord. But what we have here is even the most serious an irenic efforts at a dispassionate presentation of what Catholic teach being met with cartoons, with colored fonts and mocking laughter, with cross-fire while one poster says we are paranoid for saying that people have said we are going to hell while another poster repeatedly says precisely that. We have scarcely ever a real attempt at refuting what we teach, but in stead an attack on something we do not believe. Followed my much concerned shaking of heads and expressions of pious hope that we be delivered from some pit miles away from where we've ever been.

And THAT nonsense is called a debate and you all wonder if it might just be futile.

Let's just do a little exercise here:
Jesus Christ is the Wisdom of God.
For 9 months, give or take, that wisdom, which cannot be contained, yet resided in the womb of His mother.
We therefore call her the Throne of wisdom,
and our Protestant brethren immediately collapse in a dither of vapors and horror because they fear that, noting the throne, we will somehow miss the splendor of Him who sits upon it.

And this you call "debate".

6,399 posted on 06/17/2008 6:21:10 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: fortheDeclaration

***Actually, we are called to FOLLOW Christ, never to ‘imitate’ Him, something we cannot do.***

What else is purged from your Bible?

1 Corinthians 11
1
Be imitators of me, as I am of Christ.

Do you guys not read Scripture at all? Or just cherry picked verse? For folks that like Paul so much, you really don’t seem to know him at all.


6,400 posted on 06/17/2008 6:23:08 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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