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The Worship of Mary? (An Observation)

Posted on 05/30/2008 10:21:34 AM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007

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To: MarkBsnr

I agree with what you say here...


11,751 posted on 07/08/2008 2:04:43 PM PDT by andysandmikesmom
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To: Quix

***I suppose I could respond

in tongues***

Beef tongues?


11,752 posted on 07/08/2008 4:04:30 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Forest Keeper

The only way to raise man up above his proper station is to first lower God.

= = =

Well put.

And what a slick crafty way to do it with a mother goddess caricature.


11,753 posted on 07/08/2008 7:26:02 PM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
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To: Quix

***The only way to raise man up above his proper station is to first lower God.

= = =

Well put.

And what a slick crafty way to do it with a mother goddess caricature.***

An even craftier way to do it is to label the holy ‘profane’ and the profane ‘holy’. And vehemently defend those propositions.

No mother goddess in Catholicism; no caricatures either. If you come across a Catholic site that deals in caricatures of mother goddesses, I’d be obliged to you if you’d let me know what they were.


11,754 posted on 07/08/2008 8:23:34 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Forest Keeper

Thank you, dear one. I appreciate you. M


11,755 posted on 07/08/2008 8:30:09 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: andysandmikesmom; Quix

***I agree with what you say here...***

Well, you are the only one to reply to my statement:

You were the one who introduced the concept of Pastor Wright to us. You provided information to us.

Based upon that information, I would not be inclined to ask him for a shoe shine. If you have further information, I would be grateful to entertain it.
......................

FRiend Quix has not enlightened us with any further information. That can only mean one of two things. Either he is unable to provide such information in a short time, or he is unable to provide such information at all.

What odds do you think would attach to the second proposition?


11,756 posted on 07/08/2008 8:35:04 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

We don’t have a Pope. We have only Christ...


11,757 posted on 07/08/2008 8:40:02 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: MarkBsnr

11,758 posted on 07/08/2008 8:43:26 PM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
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To: raygun

She’ll never be called Queen by me or by any of the other born again protestants here. Think what you will of Mary, but she would be shocked at the way she’s venerated by many (not all) Catholics. She was a humble and obedient young woman who bore the Saviour. She was not sinless, she had other children, and she was HIS mother, not mine or anyone else’s. To GOD be all the glory.


11,759 posted on 07/08/2008 8:43:39 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Marysecretary

***We don’t have a Pope. We have only Christ...***

This is a nice fantasy for most Protestants, but they have their leaders and setters of doctrine and interpreters of the Bible and their moral directors.

Some look to others; some look to themselves. For many, a glimpse of their own Pope is in their own mirror.


11,760 posted on 07/08/2008 9:30:24 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Quix

Unable to provide illuminating information.

Pity. Yet another claim swirls down the commode.


11,761 posted on 07/08/2008 9:31:46 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Marysecretary

***Think what you will of Mary, but she would be shocked at the way she’s venerated by many (not all) Catholics.***

I love the way that so many speak for others. Mary would do this. Jesus would do that. The Holy Spirit would do the other.

Do you have proof?

***She was not sinless, she had other children, and she was HIS mother, not mine or anyone else’s. ***

The early Church indicated otherwise. 1 Tim 3:

15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Not any old church; the Church of Jesus Christ which He founded and the Holy Spirit commissioned. Not churches of men that were founded in the 1500s and 1600s and 1700s and 1800s and 1900s and 2000s and...

Names like Luther and Calvin and Zwingli and Knox and Smyth and...


11,762 posted on 07/08/2008 9:37:17 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

11,763 posted on 07/08/2008 9:41:13 PM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
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To: MarkBsnr

As usual, Mark, we will have to agree to disagree...


11,764 posted on 07/08/2008 10:01:17 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Marysecretary

Scriptural evidence is key here.


11,765 posted on 07/09/2008 7:36:18 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Marysecretary

You might appreciate the Acts 15 commentary posted here:

http://daaixin.wordpress.com/da-ai-xins-commentary-on-acts-15-warning-some-satire/


11,766 posted on 07/09/2008 10:30:22 AM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
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To: Quix

I appreciate the colours.


11,767 posted on 07/10/2008 5:52:39 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

Sometimes, I try to minister to all . . . uhhhhhh

levels

of interests.


11,768 posted on 07/10/2008 7:11:40 PM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
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To: Quix

***Sometimes, I try to minister to all . . . uhhhhhh

levels

of interests.***

If you’d direct it to triple digit IQs, we’d be grateful.


11,769 posted on 07/11/2008 7:30:44 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

That’s no problem . . . depending on my perceptiveness.


11,770 posted on 07/11/2008 8:42:25 PM PDT by Quix (WE HAVE THE OIL NOW http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147)
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To: MarkBsnr
Some look to others; some look to themselves. For many, a glimpse of their own Pope is in their own mirror.

A pope being...? Since I don't see the word in the Bible, I don't look for it anywhere.

11,771 posted on 07/14/2008 7:15:48 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Obamafeld, "A CAMPAIGN ABOUT NOTHING".)
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To: DungeonMaster

***A pope being...? ***

Pontiff, steward of the church, head theologian, arbiter of doctrine. When one makes up his own theology, he acts as his own Pope.

***Since I don’t see the word in the Bible, I don’t look for it anywhere.***

Therefore you would not look for the term Trinity either, using the same logic. Let’s see, what else is not in the Bible?

The Lord’s day on Sunday. How about Rapture? Incarnation? Were Were any of the Apostles (except for Paul) baptized? How about Once Saved, Always Saved? Do you ask Jesus to Come Into Your Heart? Have you accepted Jesus as Your Personal Saviour? How about Prayer Meetings on Wednesday Nights? How about Denomination (or non-denominational)?

Just because something is not expressly written does not make it either untrue or unChristian.

Private interpretation, on the other hand is proscribed.


11,772 posted on 07/14/2008 9:34:25 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr
Pontiff, steward of the church, head theologian, arbiter of doctrine. When one makes up his own theology, he acts as his own Pope.

And what makes you think that?

11,773 posted on 07/14/2008 9:46:46 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Obamafeld, "A CAMPAIGN ABOUT NOTHING".)
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To: DungeonMaster

***Pontiff, steward of the church, head theologian, arbiter of doctrine. When one makes up his own theology, he acts as his own Pope.

And what makes you think that?***

Your posts, for one thing.


11,774 posted on 07/14/2008 12:34:55 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr

Enjoy your cult.


11,775 posted on 07/14/2008 1:25:36 PM PDT by DungeonMaster (Obamafeld, "A CAMPAIGN ABOUT NOTHING".)
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To: DungeonMaster

***Enjoy your cult.***

I do not have a cult, unlike so many of my Protestant brethren.

I am privileged to follow the Church of Jesus Christ. You know, the one found in the Bible? The Church with Apostolic Succession right back to the Lord? Are you following?

May I enquire as to the specifics of your theology? Mine is in plain sight and available to all.


11,776 posted on 07/14/2008 5:26:23 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; metmom; presently no screen name; RnMomof7; wagglebee

Ok, so you’re a Protestant who does not believe in the Trinity or in Jesus being the Son of God?


11,777 posted on 12/08/2010 12:24:47 AM PST by Cronos (Et Verbum caro factum est et habitavit in nobis (And the word was made flesh, and dwelt amonst us))
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To: Cronos; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; metmom; presently no screen name; RnMomof7; wagglebee
Ok, so you’re a Protestant who does not believe in the Trinity or in Jesus being the Son of God?

I do not consider myself a "Protestant".

I'm not protesting Rome;
I think Rome is lost in man's traditions.

Trinity ? Does Yah'shua believe in the "trinity"?

Yah'shua said our Elohim is YHvH and He is ONE.

He also said "the father and I are one".

"If you have seen me you have seen the father".

Are the terms Father and Son metaphors ?

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
11,778 posted on 12/08/2010 7:54:32 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; Cronos; metmom; RnMomof7
Yeah, we get it. You think the Holy Trinity is a some sort of false teaching of the Catholic Church.

It's incredible what some people who claim to be Trinitarian Christians will overlook just to ally themselves with a person who opposes Catholicism. It says A LOT about their actual faith.

11,779 posted on 12/08/2010 8:00:29 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee; Cronos; metmom; RnMomof7
Yeah, we get it. You think the Holy Trinity is a some sort of false teaching of the Catholic Church. It's incredible what some people who claim to be Trinitarian Christians will overlook just to ally themselves with a person who opposes Catholicism. It says A LOT about their actual faith.

I think it is a man made tradition to support impugning Holy Scripture.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
11,780 posted on 12/08/2010 8:05:30 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: wagglebee
Ah, it's not really that incredible. The people you speak of are pretty big on un-Christian behavior, so there is little they can do nor depths they can sink to that would be all that surprising. At least this guy is amusing, what for the way he talks to everyone as though he was teaching Grasshopper; to his fear of vowels. For some real fun, ask him what year it is...
11,781 posted on 12/08/2010 8:08:16 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; Cronos; metmom; RnMomof7
I think it is a man made tradition to support impugning Holy Scripture.

So, you DENY the existence of the Holy Trinity as commonly believed by Catholics, Orthodox and Trinitarian Protestants, is that correct? A simple yes or no will do.

11,782 posted on 12/08/2010 8:08:29 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee; Cronos; metmom; RnMomof7
U-2012>I think it is a man made tradition to support impugning Holy Scripture.

So, you DENY the existence of the Holy Trinity as commonly believed by Catholics, Orthodox and Trinitarian Protestants, is that correct? A simple yes or no will do.

Does Yah'shua deny the RCC trinity ?

Trinity ? Does Yah'shua believe in the "trinity"?

Yah'shua said our Elohim is YHvH and He is ONE.

He also said "the father and I are one".

"If you have seen me you have seen the father".

Are the terms Father and Son metaphors ?

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
11,783 posted on 12/08/2010 8:20:03 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; Cronos; metmom; RnMomof7

It’s amazing the lengths people will go to in order to avoid answering a simple yes or no question.

Anyhow, it doesnt’ matter. I asked you earlier on this thread if you subscribed to Christian Trinitarian beliefs and you responded that you don’t subscribe to “to Pagan babblings of the Roman church.”
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2023605/posts?page=1835#1835

Perhaps you weren’t aware that mainline Protestants didn’t reject Trinitarian dogma.


11,784 posted on 12/08/2010 8:30:16 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; Amityschild; Brad's Gramma; Captain Beyond; Cvengr; DvdMom; firebrand; ...

All;

I’m much more comfortable with the traditional Trinitarian constructions on spiritual realities . . . the terms, metaphors etc.

because I believe the Father, The Son and Holy Spirit are evident throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament.

HOWEVER,

WHO can claim precise, exhaustive, comprehensive, full fledged knowledge and understanding of GOD in such matters and terms?

Some visitations to Heaven report ‘viewing’

The Son merging with and flowing out of—as a light flowing out of light—The Son from The Father.

Certainly Christ DID SAY that in seeing Him we saw The Father.

HOW can we comprehensively know, in this realm, what He meant by that?

And HOLY SPIRIT IS CERTAINLY EVERYWHERE.

And God’s Word, Living Word holds the fabric of reality together.

What do we finite ones know about such things?

Where is the need to tear one another’s hearts out over such issues?

I am more than a little curious,

Uri’el-2012; & Roamer_1;

What do you do with the huge issue of whether

JESUS THE CHRIST CAME IN THE FLESH?


11,785 posted on 12/08/2010 8:30:51 AM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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To: wagglebee; Cronos; metmom; RnMomof7
It’s amazing the lengths people will go to in order to avoid answering a simple yes or no question.

Perhaps you weren’t aware that mainline Protestants didn’t reject Trinitarian dogma.

Who are we, created beings, to DEFINE the creator of the universe, creator of all time and all space.

The hubris, the imperiousness of the ROMAN "church" is breathtaking.

More Dogma unfounded in Holy Scripture.

I trust in the words of Yah'shua.
I reject man-made DOGMA.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
11,786 posted on 12/08/2010 9:11:30 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; Cronos; metmom; RnMomof7
More Dogma unfounded in Holy Scripture.

The fact that a heretical sect rejects the Holy Trinity DOES NOT mean that it's not in the Bible.

Some seem to have adopted some form of "hyper sola scriptura" in which they reject as false everything which is not explicitely stated in the Bible in terms that they happen to understand.

I trust in the words of Yah'shua.

Really?

Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 28:19)

The word NAME is SINGULAR that indicates oneness, hence the Trinity.

[7] And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. [8] And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7-8)

I am FULLY AWARE that the Comma Johanneum has long been in dispute and I am fully prepared to acknowledge that it is very probably not the writing of Saint John. Nevertheless, those verses even without the Comma have always been understood by Christians to indicate the Trinity.

11,787 posted on 12/08/2010 9:26:44 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
You must have the RCC bible, I don't it.
1Jo 5:7 For there are three that testify:

1Jo 5:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

You are aware that Matthew 28:19 was modified
The earlist version do not have

baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

11,788 posted on 12/08/2010 9:48:33 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

I don’t it ==>I don’t use it.


11,789 posted on 12/08/2010 9:52:58 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; Cronos; metmom; RnMomof7
You must have the RCC bible, I don't it.

Fine, let's look at it from the KJV:

7For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
-- 1 John 7-8

Nevertheless, I already acknowledged that the Comma Johanneum was likely added later; however, I also pointed out that Christians have always believed that this passages speaks of the Holy Trinity.

You are aware that Matthew 28:19 was modified The earlist version do not have

Again, let's look at the KJV:

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Matthew 28:19)

Now, if you want to talk about the Shem Tov Matthew, that's fine, but it's a fairly recent translation that was written from a Jewish perspective and has never been accepted by Christians as valid. ALL Christian Bibles translate Matthew 28:19 in a way that is fully consistent with the Vulgate, Textus Receptus, Douay-Rheims or King James Version.

11,790 posted on 12/08/2010 10:19:51 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

ALL Christian Bibles? Gee, I am so surprised that the poster solely targeted the “RCC bible” with his comment full-o-snark....


11,791 posted on 12/08/2010 10:30:44 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: wagglebee
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. (Matthew 28:19)

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Matthew 28:19 KJV

Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” [[Matt. xxviii. 19.]]

From Proof of the Gospel (the Demonstratio) by Eusebius.

Eusebius (265-339 CE) Bishop of Caesarea around 314 CE

Book III, Chapter 7, 136 (a-d), p. 157

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/eusebius_de_05_book3.htm

also
(2) Book III, Chapter 6, 132 (a), p. 152
(3) Book III, Chapter 7, 138 (c), p. 159
(4) Book IX, Chapter 11, 445 (c), p. 175
(5) Book I, Chapter 3, 6 (a), p. 20
(6) Book I, Chapter 5, 9 (a), p. 24

In ~311 CE Eusebius (265-339) Bishop of Caesarea
In his _Proof of the Gospels_
in Book three chapter seven states

Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” [[Matt. xxviii. 19.]]
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/eusebius_de_05_book3.htm

Apparently Matthew 28:19 was changed
after Eusebius wrote his Proof of the Gospel.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
11,792 posted on 12/08/2010 10:31:11 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; Hegewisch Dupa; Cronos; metmom; RnMomof7
Yes, I am aware that Eusebius quoted a manuscript that did not have the Trinitarian formula in Matthew 28:19 and I am aware that non-Trinitarians have ALWAYS used this fact as proof that the verse was changed. However, I am also aware that Jerome was translating a manuscript that DID have the formula just a few decades later and this is what Christians have always accepted. Different manuscripts that say different things DOES NOT mean that Christianity is wrong, the fact of the matter is we don't even know if the manuscript by Eusebius that this is taken from is right. Saint Jerome spoke very highly of Eusebius, yet there has never been any indication that Jerome contemplated changing this verse, a fact which is made all the more critical since we know that there WERE changes that Jerome wanted to make.

Frankly, I don't much care what Messianic Jews and other fringe sects believe. My intent was to demonstrate the heresies that Trinitarian Christians seem willing to overlook (and the FACT is that rejection of the Holy Trinity IS heresy to a Trinitarian Christian) on here just because the non-Trinitarian happens to dislike the Catholic Church.

11,793 posted on 12/08/2010 10:49:23 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

Thanks for the ping, and bless you for the informative, comprehensible and accurate post. I love the days on FR when I walk away from the ‘puter more knowledgeable then when I logged on


11,794 posted on 12/08/2010 11:37:00 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: MarkBsnr

hehehe


11,795 posted on 12/08/2010 11:41:15 AM PST by Gamecock
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To: wagglebee; Hegewisch Dupa; Cronos; metmom; RnMomof7
Yes, I am aware that Eusebius quoted a manuscript that did not have the Trinitarian formula in Matthew 28:19 and I am aware that non-Trinitarians have ALWAYS used this fact as proof that the verse was changed. However, I am also aware that Jerome was translating a manuscript that DID have the formula just a few decades later and this is what Christians have always accepted. Different manuscripts that say different things DOES NOT mean that Christianity is wrong, the fact of the matter is we don't even know if the manuscript by Eusebius that this is taken from is right. Saint Jerome spoke very highly of Eusebius, yet there has never been any indication that Jerome contemplated changing this verse, a fact which is made all the more critical since we know that there WERE changes that Jerome wanted to make. Frankly, I don't much care what Messianic Jews and other fringe sects believe. My intent was to demonstrate the heresies that Trinitarian Christians seem willing to overlook (and the FACT is that rejection of the Holy Trinity IS heresy to a Trinitarian Christian) on here just because the non-Trinitarian happens to dislike the Catholic Church.

YHvH has preserved His remnant of First Century
believers to share His Good News.

I'm not sure what will happen to the believers
of the fourth century Nicea chaired by the
Pagan Pontiff Constantine.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
11,796 posted on 12/08/2010 11:50:20 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: All

I for one denounce the declaring of our Protestant Brothers & Sisters in Christ as pagans


11,797 posted on 12/08/2010 11:56:22 AM PST by Hegewisch Dupa
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; Quix
Are the terms Father and Son metaphors ?

I think not exactly metaphors. I think analogies.

All our language is informed by created things processed through created organs of sense and mulled over by created minds. There can be no language or "concept" adequate to uncreated Reality.

It does NOT follow though that no analogy is better or worse than any other.

Look, what do we say when talking about operations of the mind? "I get it." "I see" "I hear you." "I have a good grasp of this." Even "I understand." All these are concrete images, though 'understand' is now limited in use to intellectual operations.

But, in my experience FWIW, there's a wonderful thing that happens. I start by saying something like, "God is kind of like a father," but after a while I realize that I am the analogy, the construct, the "figure". God is what a human father only seems to be. I end with, "in my carnal fatherhood, I am kind of, a little, like God."

However, there are meaningful parts of the Trinitarian language. I know that you all think we're head-tripping pagans and all, but we Scholastics (or, in my case, would-be Scholastics)think any position other than monotheism is incoherent, in the strict sense. So we think there is one God -- "has to be."

Now when we say that the Son is the "only begotten of the Father" and "eternally begotten of the Father before all worlds," we are saying, first, that the Son is the same kind of thing that the Father is. Like begets like, and creates unlike.

What makes the mystery is that "the kind of thing that the Father is," is the kind where there can only be one of them.

So while I am the same kind of thing that you two are (only WAY better looking), I am a separate "instantiation" of the "humanity." But that's okay because there's no essential problem with there being more than one human. But if the Son and the Holy Spirit are the same kind of thing that the Father is, then, urp, well, in some sense they must be "one with" or identical to the Father. But in another sense, there must be SOME kind of difference, because the Son obeys the Father, and when the Son leaves the Spirit is sent (and for other and better reasons -- most of which are over my head.)

So all the language about one "substance" but three "persons" (or one "ousia" and three "hypostases" is to provide a vocabulary which allows us to say, "In the most fundamental sense 'they' are one, but in a subordinate but nonetheless real sense 'that one' is truly three."

11,798 posted on 12/08/2010 12:00:50 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012; Hegewisch Dupa; Cronos; metmom; RnMomof7
YHvH has preserved His remnant of First Century believers to share His Good News.

An interesting fantasy for which there is no proof whatsoever.

What EXACTLY is this group of non-Trinitarians that you claim has existed since the first century? Give us a name.

I'm not sure what will happen to the believers of the fourth century Nicea chaired by the Pagan Pontiff Constantine.

I don't know who told you this nonsense, but they were wrong.

For starters, there is NO LIST of Popes that suggests that the Church has ever considered Constantine the Great a pope.

Secondly, there has NEVER been any evidence that he was anywhere near Nicea at the time of the Council.

Thirdly, the First Council of Nicaea didn't really even address the Holy Trinity. The Holy Trinity had been written about by Origen, Tertullian, Polycarp, Justin Martyr and Ignatius centuries earlier.

Finally, the First Council of Nicaea is accepted as valid by nearly ALL Protestants as is the Holy Trinity.

What I would love to know is why you never go on Protestant threads and berate them for saying the Nicene Creed and believing in the Holy Trinity. Although that is not nearly as telling as the fact that they will ignore your rejection of the Trinity in exchange for your opposition to the Catholic Church.

11,799 posted on 12/08/2010 12:20:57 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Hegewisch Dupa
I for one denounce the declaring of our Protestant Brothers & Sisters in Christ as pagans

Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to bother them, which is quite odd when you consider how nearly universal the Nicene Creed is.

11,800 posted on 12/08/2010 12:23:05 PM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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