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Faith & Works: Paul vs. James
Stand To Reason ^ | Gregory Koukl

Posted on 07/07/2008 10:49:08 PM PDT by Gamecock

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To: Gamecock

The author almost has it, but slips at the very end.

Verses which tell us we are saved by faith alone, lest any man should boast are also true with verses which tell us faith without works is dead.

The author is correct to point out that when an apparent contradiction exists, but through faith in Christ we have a friendly check and balance upon our thinking processes. Our past scarred thinking processes in our mind and soul, are evidenced in the outpouring of our heart. Whenever we think we see a contradiction in Scripture, our first response is to place the issue in God’s hands, let Him provide for us and if in His Will, grace us with the understanding He has intended.

BTW, this might not always be a painless process, but where we suffer it is due to our past sin rather than by His harm. Divine discipline might be in order, but it due to His love for us that He corrects us.

WRT faith and works associated with salvation, there are definite doctrines developed by many denominations which approach the issue from different directions.

The Catholic perspective recognizes salvation is spoken of in three tenses. One regards initial salvation associated with saving the believer from a judgment condemning the believer to the Lake of Fire eternally.

Other passages speak of working out our salvation, an ongoing process by which the believer is saved from many consequences of sin.

A third version is of perseverence which saves us from losing many crowns predestined for us in eternity past.

Other denominations might also discuss these doctrines but from building upon a slightly different ordering of verses and topical names of doctrines. Many Protestant doctrines look at the same verses with respect to initial saving faith, confession and justification, forgiveness and sanctification.

Upon initial salvation, when the believer receives the regenerated human spirit, the believer has eternal life. He is also sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Post salvation sin occurs, but this doesn’t remove the human spirit from the believer, rather it moves the believer out of fellowship with God. The believer still will not go into the Lake of Fire because he is part of the Royal Family of God, regardless if the degenerate believer wants that or not.

The degenerate believer, out of fellowship doesn;t get away with something by post salvation sin, rather he fails to be in the right place at the right time to perform by God’s Plan and leaves a crown predestined for him, sitting on the shelf eternally in heaven.

A believer sinning after salvation doesn’t result in the believer being sent to the Lake of Fire, nor is it proof that the initial saving faith was insufficient for God to recognize it for initial salvation to regenerate the human spirit, it merely manifests the believer slid back into temptation, not exercising proper faith at the time of his decision to sin.


51 posted on 07/08/2008 3:33:20 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Before I go on in this conversation, what religion are you? Why do you replace the “o” in “God” with a hypen, but the “i” in Christ with an asterisk? Why don’t you capitalize Christianity? Is this some sort of a purposeful disrespect?

And who says we condemn the Torah? Because we make exceptions for the circumcision of grown men, not making the slicing of their genitals a prerequisite for conversion? The Torah preserved a purpose, preserving a godly culture. But Catholicism is for bringing godliness to all peoples, as God commanded should be done. What was beneficial for godliness was retained; what was a hindrance to conversion of gentiles was relaxed. But Catholics fought hard to preserve the Torah, in the face of Manicheans, Gnostics, Arians, etc., who argued that it was no longer relevant.

>> Every argument liturgical chr*stians make for the validity of their rituals goes in spades for the defense of Torah observance, which they attack and disparage every bit as Luther and Calvin did the “popish mass.” <<

Give me one modern example of a Catholic disparaging the Torah.


52 posted on 07/08/2008 4:18:38 PM PDT by dangus
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To: Iscool

>> And Jesus said to pluck your eyes out <<

No he didn’t. Your omitting an enourmously important conditional clause in his statement. But if my eyes were to cost me my salvation by leading me into grave sin, I would pluck them out, as he would recommend. Since I don’t believe I’d be any less inclined to mortal sin if I were blind, I keep mine.

>> You’re skirting the issue which is, the will of the Father... <<

No, actually I was bringing it back up. The will of the Father is that we should believe on Christ. Christ gave us commands as to what we need to do.


53 posted on 07/08/2008 4:23:34 PM PDT by dangus
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; Alex Murphy; ..

Wow. No-one has yet responded to posts #9 or #10. Fascinating.


54 posted on 07/08/2008 4:30:05 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

For initial saving faith, sola fides is fine.

He made us to perform good works, and such are only divinely recognized as divinely good when performed through faith in Christ.

I agree with the bulk of you comment, although I also find those who appeal to an obvious sin as proof a person isn;t saved to be more grievous error, than simple faith alone in Christ alone.


55 posted on 07/08/2008 4:34:30 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: dangus
Before I go on in this conversation, what religion are you? Why do you replace the “o” in “God” with a hypen, but the “i” in Christ with an asterisk? Why don’t you capitalize Christianity? Is this some sort of a purposeful disrespect?

I am a Noachide. The hyphen is out of reverence. The asterisk is to avoid writing in full the name of a false "gxd." Most Jews and Noachides use an X (Xmas, Xtian, Xtianity), but I long ago made the personal decision not to do this because I felt that the "X" should not have any anti-chr*stian implications for chr*stians writing in a hurry, as at university lectures. So I go to the trouble of avoiding the "X" so that chr*stians themselves may use it without feeling like they are betraying their own religion. Instead it seems to have been mostly misunderstood for the nine years I've been here.

And who says we condemn the Torah? Because we make exceptions for the circumcision of grown men, not making the slicing of their genitals a prerequisite for conversion? The Torah preserved a purpose, preserving a godly culture. But Catholicism is for bringing godliness to all peoples, as God commanded should be done. What was beneficial for godliness was retained; what was a hindrance to conversion of gentiles was relaxed. But Catholics fought hard to preserve the Torah, in the face of Manicheans, Gnostics, Arians, etc., who argued that it was no longer relevant.

So why can't you understand why protestants question your own rituals and traditions such as prayers to saints, rosaries, etc.? If you're going to eviscerate the Holy Commandments, don't replace them with something else!

Every argument liturgical chr*stians make for the validity of their rituals goes in spades for the defense of Torah observance, which they attack and disparage every bit as Luther and Calvin did the “popish mass.”

Give me one modern example of a Catholic disparaging the Torah.

You mean aside from insisting it was adapted from Babylonian and Canaanite paganism? :-)

How about your own use of the term "Judaizing" for people who refused to give up the Commandments spoken by G-d's Mouth? You can see the beauty of non-Biblical Catholic rituals and consider protestants cruel for wanting you to drop them. But look at how you treated your own original co-religionists who didn't do exactly this with regard to the Torah!

Have you never considered how the charges and accusations of protestantism merely mirror what Catholics and Orthodox have always said about Jewish rituals, commandments, and oral traditions? For every Protestant attacking "Papish superstitions" there has been ample Catholics or Orthodox who attacked the Talmud. You see the Protestants as cruel for wanting you to drop your traditions. Let look at what you demand of the Jews!

The experience of Catholics in Protestant America has been a tit for tat reliving of its own persecution of Jews and Judaism--the attacks on "doctrines and commandments of men," the "chr*stless works religion," the whole shmeer. And Catholic apologetics has consisted of such responses as "we're older than you(???)" and "you have no idea of the beauty and meaning of our ancient traditions." But apparently your ears do not hear what your own mouths are saying.

Protestantism was risen up by G-d to give Catholicism/Orthodoxy a taste of its own medicine. How do you like it?

And again, I see a connection between the rejection of Jewish rituals and commandments (on the one hand) and the rejection of the historicity and facticity of the Bible's stories on the other. Certainly Catholics are more skeptical of the "old testament" than the are of medieval or modern miracle stories.

56 posted on 07/08/2008 4:45:43 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Vayiftach HaShem 'et-pi ha'aton vato'mer leVil`am meh-`asiti lekha ki hikkitani zeh shalosh regalim?)
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To: thefrankbaum
However, God has specified HOW to accept His gift. Not just calling Him "Lord, Lord," but rather doing the will of the Father. Now...what is the will of the Father? Jesus taught us in two simple commandments - Love God, and Love your neighbor.

Why do keep insisting Jesus was lying??? THIS is the will of the Father...

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

It's as clear as day in the scriptures...

Here is a warning to those that chose not to believe Jesus...

Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39 Search the Scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Note Jesus did NOT say to search the commentary by the Catholic church which is their catechism...Jesus did NOT say to search the opinions of the Catholic church fathers...Jesus did NOT say to search anyone's tradition...

Jesus said to Search the Scriptures...And if you don't, you do not have His word abiding in you, which can be evidenced by all these false references and teachings put out by the Catholic church...

Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

How is one going to come to Jesus if the one doesn't even know the will of the Father???

Doing such does not merit salvation, nor does it earn salvation - Faith and Works are the means of acceptance of His gift.

If you try to win God's favor by following the law, you'll be judged by the law...You have given up ALL grace...

Search the scriptures...

57 posted on 07/08/2008 4:47:56 PM PDT by Iscool (If Obama becomes the President, it will be an Obama-nation)
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To: Gamecock

Pitting James versus Paul reminds me of the teaching of Dr. Gene Scott. He referred to James as James the Jerk. I do think he had a point that James is where the legalists camped out, and legalism is the foundation for the hypocrites.


58 posted on 07/08/2008 4:53:58 PM PDT by Biblebelter
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To: Iscool
Why do keep insisting Jesus was lying??? THIS is the will of the Father...Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And how do you believe in Christ? By following His words? And what are His words...maybe I quoted them above?

Jesus said to Search the Scriptures...And if you don't, you do not have His word abiding in you, which can be evidenced by all these false references and teachings put out by the Catholic church...

Really? Jesus told people to search the Letters of Paul? Maybe as an observant Jew, teaching to observant Jews, he meant the Old Testament...just a crazy thought.

59 posted on 07/08/2008 5:01:29 PM PDT by thefrankbaum (Ad maiorem Dei gloriam)
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To: dangus; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg
No-one has yet responded to posts #9 or #10. Fascinating.

For the record, not an accurate statement when made. At that point, 9 had 1 reply, and 10 had 2 replies when 54 was posted (And 9 got an additional response 4 minutes and 25 seconds later).

60 posted on 07/08/2008 5:10:15 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: Gamecock
Faith & Works: Paul vs. James

To whom were these two books written and why ?

Romans was written by Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles;
the book is to those gentiles, who were already followers of Yah'shua.

James was an apostle to the twelve tribes and states such;
his teaching should be first of all seen in this light.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
61 posted on 07/08/2008 5:11:05 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Iscool

“If you try to win God’s favor by following the law, you’ll be judged by the law...You have given up ALL grace...

“Search the scriptures... “

Amen and amen. ALL glory to the Lamb of God, for no man can share in the work of the Lord nor will God share His glory with any creature.


62 posted on 07/08/2008 5:11:12 PM PDT by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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To: dangus; drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...
True faith is CONFIRMED by works. If a man's works do not confirm his faith, then his faith is either insincere, or misplaced.

I would disagree with this assessment. While I believe "True faith is CONFIRMED by works." a man's works does not confirm his faith. Rather it is our Lord's works through us that confirm our saving faith.

This might seem like hair spliting but it is a terribly important point. The works of the Spirit is joy, peace, self-control, etc. These are works that are manifested in a Christian life, not because of us but because of the Holy Spirit. We are His workmanship to bring us to good works. All Christians manifest some degree of good works or they are not a Christian. Abraham's works was a manifestation of God working through him.

63 posted on 07/08/2008 5:21:11 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: PAR35

Oops. #s 8 and 9. The fact that #9 was responded to after I commented that no-one had responded to it somehow means I was inaccurate?


64 posted on 07/08/2008 5:42:50 PM PDT by dangus
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To: HarleyD

>> I would disagree with this assessment. While I believe “True faith is CONFIRMED by works.” a man’s works does not confirm his faith. Rather it is our Lord’s works through us that confirm our saving faith. <<

Well, Paul says, “I have written unto you with mine own hand.” He did not write, “God has written unto you through me with mine own hand.” So I think you’re being a little hyper-critical. (That’s from the 6th chapter of the Letter of God Through Paul to the Galatians.) ;^)


65 posted on 07/08/2008 5:51:40 PM PDT by dangus
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To: Zionist Conspirator

>> I am a Noachide. <<

I’m not familar with the use of Noachide as a noun. I know it to mean referring to the seven laws of Noah, as in “the Noachide covenant.” I do not find a wikipedia entry of any such religion. Are you a practitioner of B’nei Noach?

If so, then you hold that non-Jews aren’t bound to the laws of Moses, but are bound to the laws of Noah. Ceratinly, the Catholic Church has always fervently upheld the Noachide laws*. What beef do you then have against the Catholic Church not upholding the entirety of the Talmud? Or did you not mean that you follow the B’nei Noach?

(*In truth, I’ve never heard the seventh law preached on at mass, but then again, it seems so unthinkable... It sorta seems like preaching that law would be akin to preaching, “thou shall not jam a tuning fork up your nose, and pour horseradish in the open wound.”)

>> The hyphen is out of reverence...Instead it seems to have been mostly misunderstood for the nine years I’ve been here. <<

And, yet, oddly you persist. And why do you not write “Christian”? You haven’t explained.

>> You mean aside from insisting it was adapted from Babylonian and Canaanite paganism? :-) <<

I mean support your assertion that Catholics rip on the Talmud.

>> Have you never considered how the charges and accusations of protestantism merely mirror what Catholics and Orthodox have always said about Jewish rituals, commandments, and oral traditions? <<

No, I didn’t. In fact, I’ve asked you to demonstrate that and you haven’t.

>> Protestantism was risen up by G-d to give Catholicism/Orthodoxy a taste of its own medicine. How do you like it? <<

Thank God he isn’t like you. I don’t believe God rises up evil to give people “a taste of their own medicine.”


66 posted on 07/08/2008 6:09:24 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
If so, then you hold that non-Jews aren’t bound to the laws of Moses, but are bound to the laws of Noah.

Yes, but Jews are bound by the Holy Torah. It will never be superseded by anything. It is precisely this which the liturgical churches deny. They insist that Jews must no longer observe the mitzvot of the Torah. Are you really so dense that you don't see any similarity between this attitude and that of Protestantism toward your own rituals? People who try to talk the Jews out of Torah observance have no business whining about the antinomianism of Protestantism.

And, yet, oddly you persist. And why do you not write “Christian”? You haven’t explained.

I did explain, in the very section of my post which you excerpt. You obviously didn't read it very well.

I mean support your assertion that Catholics rip on the Talmud.

Catholic and Orthodox chr*stians have the same attitude towards the Talmud that Fundamentalist Protestants have toward the Church Fathers. Until Catholics and Orthodox accept the Talmud they have no business putting down Protestants for not accepting the authority of the Church Fathers.

Have you never considered how the charges and accusations of protestantism merely mirror what Catholics and Orthodox have always said about Jewish rituals, commandments, and oral traditions?

No, I didn’t. In fact, I’ve asked you to demonstrate that and you haven’t.

You demonstrated it yourself in your initial answer to me in which you referred to some ancient chr*stians as "Judaizers." If they had no business practicing Jewish rituals, you most certainly have no business practicing post-Biblical chr*stian ones.

Thank God he isn’t like you. I don’t believe God rises up evil to give people “a taste of their own medicine.”

In other words you don't believe in the Biblical G-d. At least you're honest.

67 posted on 07/08/2008 6:39:17 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Vayiftach HaShem 'et-pi ha'aton vato'mer leVil`am meh-`asiti lekha ki hikkitani zeh shalosh regalim?)
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To: Manfred the Wonder Dawg; Iscool
“If you try to win God’s favor by following the law, you’ll be judged by the law...You have given up ALL grace...

“Search the scriptures... “

It's not a matter of 'winning God's favor'. Search for 'repent'...

Matt 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, 2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!"

Matt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach and to say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Shunning evils as sins and repentance are key to a saving faith. Sins are defined by the Ten Commandments.
68 posted on 07/08/2008 7:30:28 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (If you know these things, you are blessed if you act upon them. John 13:17)
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To: dangus
The fact that #9 was responded to after I commented that no-one had responded to it somehow means I was inaccurate?

No, the fact that 9 was responded to BEFORE you commented made your comment inaccurate.

69 posted on 07/08/2008 7:41:25 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: Zionist Conspirator

>> Catholic and Orthodox chr*stians have the same attitude towards the Talmud that Fundamentalist Protestants have toward the Church Fathers. Until Catholics and Orthodox accept the Talmud they have no business putting down Protestants for not accepting the authority of the Church Fathers. <<

>> You demonstrated it yourself in your initial answer to me in which you referred to some ancient chr*stians as “Judaizers.” If they had no business practicing Jewish rituals, you most certainly have no business practicing post-Biblical chr*stian ones. <<

Excuse me, but “Judaizers” were people who tried to bind Gentiles to the Talmud, by insisting on circumcision of converts. They also refused to eat in the presence of Gentiles, for fear that their own food might be contaminated. They held non-Gentiles in a 2nd-class status, within the Christian community.


70 posted on 07/08/2008 7:45:46 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus
Excuse me, but “Judaizers” were people who tried to bind Gentiles to the Talmud, by insisting on circumcision of converts. They also refused to eat in the presence of Gentiles, for fear that their own food might be contaminated. They held non-Gentiles in a 2nd-class status, within the Christian community.

So why do you try to bring Protestant converts to the Church Fathers? If chr*stianity rejects the Jewish Fathers of the Talmud then it has no business creating its own fathers to replace them.

71 posted on 07/08/2008 7:50:25 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Vayiftach HaShem 'et-pi ha'aton vato'mer leVil`am meh-`asiti lekha ki hikkitani zeh shalosh regalim?)
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To: DaveMSmith; Manfred the Wonder Dawg; Iscool

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Shunning evils as sins and repentance are key to a saving faith. Sins are defined by the Ten Commandments.

68 posted on July 8, 2008 8:30:28 PM MDT by DaveMSmith

Exodus 20
8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

9 "Six days you shall labor and do all your work,

10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work,
you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your
sojourner who stays with you.

11 "For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them,
and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

This Commandment also ?
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
72 posted on 07/08/2008 7:57:52 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: PAR35

>>No, the fact that 9 was responded to BEFORE you commented made your comment inaccurate. <<

Let’s see the message I first cc’d Gamecock to:

>> Thank you, Sara, but isn’t it interesting that debate rages on, without anyone responding to those posts? (except those with kind words to affirm them.) <<

So you see, in context, my assertion that no-one had responded to them was in the sense of rebutting them. What’s amazing is that my initial posts completely destroyed the notion of sola fides. But you don’t rebut those posts, you nitpick the semantics later comparably insignificant comments. Does that make you feel validated? Is there some sort of internal ad-hominem that you can reassure yourself with that somehow you’ve invalidated my point because you found some inane point to squabble with me over?

Hey, I’ll tell you what: I obviously admit referring to #9 and #10 was wrong, since I meant to refer to #8 and #9. Now, do you have a substantive point to discuss?


73 posted on 07/08/2008 8:07:02 PM PDT by dangus
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To: XeniaSt
Absolutely. We understand it closer to the definition in the article, however:

4) Have you consistently honored God by worshipping Him on a regular basis?

It is meant for instruction and love towards the neighbor. In a deeper sense, it is meant reformation and regeneration by the Lord.

74 posted on 07/08/2008 8:09:14 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (If you know these things, you are blessed if you act upon them. John 13:17)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Protestantism was risen up by G-d to give Catholicism/Orthodoxy a taste of its own medicine. How do you like it?

I think it's silly. If it was "risen up by GOD", then it wouldn't be continually fragmenting and splintering into quarelling factions. I could say something equally bigoted, considering Jewish history, but you see the point.

75 posted on 07/08/2008 8:25:52 PM PDT by Hacksaw (Deport illegals the same way they came here - one at a time.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

>> So why do you try to bring Protestant converts to the Church Fathers? If chr*stianity rejects the Jewish Fathers of the Talmud then it has no business creating its own fathers to replace them. <<

Boy, you’re really clinging to that notion that Catholicism disdains the Jewish Fathers with all your might, aren’t you? I’ll tell you what: It might take more Google foo than I’ve got, but if you can search through all my past statements, you’ll find me state several times: “The Jews won’t convert to Christianity until Christians properly understand Judaism.” I’ve even compared Christians to adopted children who think they’re loved more because Mommy and Daddy get them all new toys and treats, but the Jews are the older, natural-born children who love their parents not because they get a bunch of treats, but because they’re their parents.

I don’t know where you perceive this antipathy for the Jewish Fathers, but it’s not me, it’s not my church, and it’s not any true Christian.


76 posted on 07/08/2008 8:33:36 PM PDT by dangus
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To: XeniaSt
And in James's own directive, he says he and Peter will go to the Jews and Paul, et al can go to the gentiles. Since I'm not a Jews, I'll follow Paul's directions and trust in Salvation by faith alone (allein, as Luther pointed out), then do as much for others, to bring them to Him as I can while I can.

shalom b'SHEM

77 posted on 07/08/2008 8:34:10 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: dangus

Discussion won’t get us anywhere, since we would rely on the inerrant Bible as our authority, and Catholics rely on a sinful man, or group of sinful men, as authority. So, lacking a common ground, we’d just be talking past each other.


78 posted on 07/08/2008 8:37:04 PM PDT by PAR35
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I’m deciding I better ensure you understand my point.

>> Excuse me, but “Judaizers” were people who tried to bind Gentiles to the Talmud, by insisting on circumcision of converts. They also refused to eat in the presence of Gentiles, for fear that their own food might be contaminated. They held non-Gentiles in a 2nd-class status, within the Christian community. <<

These “Judaizers” weren’t merely Jews. They were Jews who were trying to enforce Talmudic law apon Christians, even when to do so posed an unreasonable burden. BY explaining who Judaizers were, I didn’t mean to accuse Jews of anything, but explain that these particular Jews were making demands of Christians that followers of Noachide laws would agree aren’t proper.


79 posted on 07/08/2008 8:38:16 PM PDT by dangus
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To: PAR35

>> Discussion won’t get us anywhere, since we would rely on the inerrant Bible as our authority, and Catholics rely on a sinful man, or group of sinful men, as authority. So, lacking a common ground, we’d just be talking past each other. <<

Well, certainly not if you resolutely cling to slander such as “Catholics rely on a sinful man, or group of sinful men, as authority.” See, because I know people have instructed you that Catholicism rejects any doctrine contrary to the bible. You just have an unshakable faith in a patently, directly anti-scriptural belief of Sola Fides.

I mean, you talk about following sinful men and relying on the inerrant Bible. Yet you follow a murderer named John Calvin who preached that Man is saved by faith alone, even when the bible says, word-for-word, that “Man is not saved by faith alone.”

You say “discussion won’t get us anywhere.” What you mean is your purpose cannot be advanced by engaging in an argument you are sure to lose. Because we all know when a Catholic makes a controvertible statement, or even errs in expressing himself, the GRPL swarms in, making their case amdist no limit of mutual congratulations.


80 posted on 07/08/2008 8:48:23 PM PDT by dangus
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To: dangus

What did Jesus teach was the work that God required to be Saved, when the Pharisees asked Him what must man do to have eternal life? What did Jesus teach Nicodemus in John 3 when Nic came asking questions?


81 posted on 07/08/2008 8:58:16 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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To: DaveMSmith
Absolutely. We understand it closer to the definition in the article, however: 4) Have you consistently honored God by worshipping Him on a regular basis?

It is meant for instruction and love towards the neighbor. In a deeper sense, it is meant reformation and regeneration by the Lord.

Do I understand the Jesuitical parsing correctly ?

The answer is no.

Do you prefer to worship on the Pagan day of the Sun instead ?

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
82 posted on 07/08/2008 9:11:29 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: XeniaSt
Do you prefer to worship on the Pagan day of the Sun instead ?

My church has worship services on Sunday. I'm a contemplative Christian who practices centering and receptive prayer.

We believe there are 2 forms of worship, internal and external. Internal worship means living a pious an holy life -- every day. I practice external worship online, which my church offers.

Not sure I understand 'Jesuitical parsing' as I'm not Catholic.

83 posted on 07/08/2008 9:30:05 PM PDT by DaveMSmith (If you know these things, you are blessed if you act upon them. John 13:17)
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To: JSDude1

God planned works for us from the foundation of the world. I believe that there are works that only you or I can do to promote the Kingdom of Heaven here on earth. If we refuse His call to do those particular works, we will be judged on that. That’s why we always have to pray and ask God to show us where He wants us to go and what we’re to do. He’s given us giftings that can point the way as well. It’s important to do those works, but without faith we really can’t.


84 posted on 07/08/2008 9:32:46 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Iscool

AMEN, Iscool. Why is that so hard to understand?


85 posted on 07/08/2008 9:36:45 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: sirchtruth

I’ve said that before, that God will always pursue you when you are saved, but it’s a concept that’s laughed at by some. Glad to see it here...


86 posted on 07/08/2008 9:41:49 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: dangus

Protestantism isn’t evil, dangus. Sorry you feel that way. Glad God doesn’t!


87 posted on 07/08/2008 9:50:00 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: PAR35

Exactly...


88 posted on 07/08/2008 9:53:05 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Marysecretary

Well that’s true Mary, but I still contend (backed up by the scriptures) that our Salvation and Faith is based upon Christ and His Grace ALONE, not our works, they only come about (as important as they are) because of our Faith firstly..!


89 posted on 07/08/2008 10:55:54 PM PDT by JSDude1 (It;s only a protest vote if your political worldview is Republican 1st, conservative 2nd-pissant)
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To: JSDude1

I agree, absolutely. Without our faith in Christ, our works mean nothing. But He knew who would receive Him and He has prepared those works for His children who follow Him.


90 posted on 07/08/2008 11:07:54 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: DaveMSmith
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

I'm not interested in the Tree of Life...My name is already written in the Book of Life...

91 posted on 07/09/2008 1:26:07 AM PDT by Iscool (If Obama becomes the President, it will be an Obama-nation)
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To: Iscool
"I'm not interested in the Tree of Life"

Best look at the next verse:

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

"Eating from the tree of life symbolizes acquisition of eternal life, and eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil symbolizes acquisition of damnation." CL 135

92 posted on 07/09/2008 4:21:54 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (If you know these things, you are blessed if you act upon them. John 13:17)
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To: Marysecretary
I’ve said that before, that God will always pursue you when you are saved, but it’s a concept that’s laughed at by some. Glad to see it here...

It's a curious thing. God our Father loves us. He's always made that clear. Once we chose to step inside his door we a forever his even if we decide to go back outside and play.

It's not about good works, bad works or no works, it's about him bridging the chasm of sin so there is no more separtion between us.

Once you accept his gift it's yours forever and you can't give back, throw it away, rewrap and give it to someone else, you have to decide how you're going to live WITH it!

Thanks for noticing we have a great, gracious, and loving God.

93 posted on 07/09/2008 5:28:53 AM PDT by sirchtruth (Vote Conservative Repuplican!!)
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To: dangus

Why did you ping me?


94 posted on 07/09/2008 5:34:02 AM PDT by wmfights (Believe - THE GOSPEL - and be saved)
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To: MHGinTN

What did Jesus tell the rich young man he had to do in order to be saved? Oh, right: Go and give all you own to the poor. What did John tell the people they had to do? Oh, right: Repent.

The dispute between Catholics and Calvinists over sola fides isn’t over whether faith is salvific. Of course it is. The argument is over whether faith can be salvific without works. And the Catholic position is that salvific faith inherently is accompanied by works. Faith without works is like a triangle that doesn’t have three sides.


95 posted on 07/09/2008 5:38:10 AM PDT by dangus
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To: wmfights

I believed you had been pinged already at #29.


96 posted on 07/09/2008 5:41:24 AM PDT by dangus
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To: Marysecretary

I was responding to Zionist Conspirator’s inference that God raised up Protestantism “to give Catholics and Orthodox a taste of their own medicine.”

As for me, I think that the founding cause of Protestant churches is evil, that the division of the Christian church is evil, and that the constant pre-occupation with bashing Catholic doctrines (like this thread) is evil. But that the faith held by Protestants is frequently blessed and good, and frequently far more blessed and more good than the faith held by fallen away / Amchurch Catholics like Ted Kennedy or Nancy Pelosi.

Protestantism is impaired Christianity. That it is impaired is evil; that it is Christianity is blessed and good.


97 posted on 07/09/2008 5:55:13 AM PDT by dangus
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To: MHGinTN
Ahmain.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

98 posted on 07/09/2008 6:23:56 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Gamecock

“Faith alone saves, but faith that is alone is not the genuine article. It’s not saving faith.”

This is clear in Scripture, and Reformers taught such. Sola Fide means that God-given faith appropriates justification by imputed righteousness (Rm. 3:9-5:1), but it is IMPOSSIBLE to Biblically believe on the Lord Jesus Christ without effectually confessing Him as such, as enabled. Faith, like love, causes responses corresponding to the desires and will of it’s object. What you really believe will be manifest in what you do. But the key distinction is that it is not by any merit of our works, which must includes even the heart assent of faith or “sinners prayer,” that we are justified by, but by imputed righteousness, appropriated by God-given faith. Thus it cannot be said that souls “by their very works sake.. have merited eternal life” (Trent), if that is to mean that by any merit of works themselves one is justified.

Paul (against the Jews) in Romans 4 and elsewhere deals with the very issue of upon what basis sinful man is justified, and states that God justifies a man by faith without requiring works as regards a means of merit. But elsewhere makes it clear such faith is a confessional one. James (against “easy believers”) specifically deals with what manner of faith is saving, and requires works as a condition of salvation. What i believe both are saying is that God only imputes righteousness in response to a confessional faith, which begins in the heart, but which will (if at all possible) be manifested outwardly, and seals such faith as salvific, and without such it is considered incomplete. And which confession God also enables. But again, it is not be any merit of any confession that one is saved, but by imputed righteousness true faith appropriates.

James is not contrary to Paul in this who attests, “That if thou shalt CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth CONFESSION is made unto salvation” (Rom 10:10). If one does believe in the heart, such a faith, if real, will constrain confession. “We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak” (2 Cor 4:13). The Lord Himself stated, “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven” (Mat 10:32). And the writer of Hebrews declares that Jesus “became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him” (Heb 5:9).

And so we see that true faith and confession are inseparable, and that the only kind of faith that saves is one that will manifest heart faith by outward confession. But what constitutes a confession? It is a manifestation of response, which begins at the heart, the outward confession of which Paul states here is by the mouth. But confession is surely not limited to the mouth, but can be any faith (in Christ as Lord and Savior) motivated action. As regards bodily action besides the mouth, the primary formal manifestation is volitional baptism (Mark 16:16), which for some can be a “sinner’s prayer” in body language (Acts 2:38). This is not adding works to salvation, any more than the mental assent of faith is. In another instance, previously lost (Acts 11:14) Cornelius and household believed on the Lord Jesus and received the Holy Spirit just as the apostles did, before they spoke or were baptized (Acts 10:43-47; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13).


99 posted on 07/09/2008 6:54:09 AM PDT by daniel1212 ( Give your sins and life to Him who died your us and rose again. Jesus is Lord.)
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To: dangus; XeniaSt; xzins; Revelation 911; Godzilla
Prior to the crucifixion, ALL Jews (including The Son of God there with them) were under the Mosaic law, thus the directions to the 'rich young ruler' were consistent with the law up to then. In perhaps what is another rendition of that scene, Jesus tells his disciples who want to run after the turning away young man, "Let the dead go bury the dead." The Jews were still under the law of sin and death. If you check the Greek translated as 'repent' you will find a meaning related to faith as an action word (see my profile page if you like) similar to what Gene Scott taught regarding 'action based upon belief, sustained by confidence in His Promise'.

BTW, JOhn told the Jews to repent because The Kingdom Of God was at hand ... Jesus, God in human flesh, was at hand and things were about to change and be different from before as Jesus fullfilled that which no Jew before could fullfill. John was baptising folks, too. Were they receiving the justification by faith with that act of submission? It is always good to understand to whom Jesus was speaking, and thus the timing of His words for His audience then, and down through the ages to even us.

When Jesus told Nicodemus 'You must be born again', He was explaining something hard for Nic to comprehend on that temporal side of the cross. We know this because Nic zoomed in on the earthly, typical interpretation of 'be born again'. But Jesus was referring to that which would come. Do you think the folks to whom He preached in sheol --in 'Abraham's bosom'-- came out of sheol without being born again? Absolutely not, because that is precisely what needs be for them to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, as Jesus taught Nicodemus. But they were not born into new physical bodies as we define such. How do you imagine Nicodemus explained that 'being born again' AFTER he bought the loads of spices for Jesus's burial and learned of His resurrection? From that moment onward, I suspect that Nicodemus explained being born again using the example of 'first fruits', Jesus coming out of the grave and ascending unto the Father in Heaven. Yet Nic still had a mystery on his hands because Jesus took His resurrected body to Heaven! Ah, the great mystery that Paul later explains as we shall have new bodies in some where/when of God's choosing because we already have spiritual rebirth by our faith in His atonement.

What do you suppose Paul discussed with Peter, James and later John, when he returned to Jerusalem on more than one occasion to meet with the Apostles there? Now those are Church conferences I would paid to attend! And Paul tells his letter audience 'From them I received nothing beyond what I have taught you, repeatedly.' Paul taught salvation by 'faithing' ... action, based upon belief, sustained by the confidence living in God's Will produces.

100 posted on 07/09/2008 7:07:39 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Believing they cannot be deceived, they cannot be convinced when they are deceived.)
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