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Evangelicals: Change of Heart toward Catholics
The Black Cordelias ^ | July 28, 2008 | The Black Cordelias

Posted on 07/29/2008 4:39:52 PM PDT by annalex

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To: annalex; Boagenes
Perhaps, but then these diverse interpretations also exist in the Protestant world.

And the reality is that most of the beliefs that Protestants condemn Catholics for are SHARED by Lutherans (many Marian beliefs, the Real Presence, the Sacraments, including Confession).

101 posted on 07/30/2008 1:35:59 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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Comment #102 Removed by Moderator

To: annalex
insistence on biblical inerrancy free from fundamentalist literalism;
Why would literalism be a disadvantage. And how can you say the Scriptures are "inerrant" but not take them literally? You would have to depend on some human authority to decide the meaning apart from the words themselves. The secular world would never accept this authority.

hierarchical structure with immutable 2 thousand year-old agenda
No weight or authority to this argument at all...again, relying on human, not divine authority.

absence of independent local leadership
What has this got to do with anything? non sequitor

moral absolutes that derive from natural law and therefore apply to Catholics and non-Catholics alike
Why is this a RC distinctive? Protestants believe the same thing?

monastic tradition
How does this possibly counter secularism? non sequitor

independent from the government education by celibate clergy
Another non sequitor. How could this possibly counter secularism?

conditional obedience to civil laws: a law that the Church sees as unjust does not have to be obeyed no matter how many people voted for it
And this differs from Protestant position how?

Your arguments are vacuous and full of non sequitors...you have proved absolutely nothing!

103 posted on 07/30/2008 1:45:16 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: annalex

I could not be Roman Catholic on the issues listed. On the other hand, I have listed both strengths and weaknesses as I see them. That seems fair to me.


104 posted on 07/30/2008 1:46:20 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: roamer_1

...let’s see...what do they have in common? Why, except for the U.S., atheism...

which began where... The European continent fell long ago to the scourge of liberalism that is now affecting the Protestant nations. Catholic nations fared no better, and it could be argued, were the genesis thereof...

...I would suggest that the scourge of liberalism, as you call it, is the hallmark of modernist Protestant thought, culminating in acceptance, and encouragement of homosexuality and other vices emerging from their very pulpits...and as for Catholic nations being the genesis thereof, please sir, get some sleep and some medication...


105 posted on 07/30/2008 2:02:31 PM PDT by IrishBrigade
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To: annalex
But the Catholic interpretation is that of the fathers of the Church, who produced the canon of gospels.

That is arguable, as many threads here attest.

Anyone can intepret; only a Catholic can explain.

Nonsense.

106 posted on 07/30/2008 2:05:36 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1; annalex

See #104

The texts containing the gospel are found only in the New Testament. Paul clearly spells out the gospel at the beginning of 1 Corinth 15. It’s clear.

There are no excuses.


107 posted on 07/30/2008 2:07:45 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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To: sandyeggo
Catholicism stands just as soundly today as it did 2000 1600 years ago.

Twelve-hundred years of which it used in crushing it's detractors unmercifully.

108 posted on 07/30/2008 2:10:27 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: annalex

Ditto that. As I said on an earlier thread, when I was much younger doing things I knew were a sin, it was easier to avoid a message that told me my choices were a sin.


109 posted on 07/30/2008 2:19:19 PM PDT by Jaded (Does it really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: wagglebee

They existed, they just weren’t expounded by name, because what they define was simply assumed as part of the faith for the first three hundred or so years. It was only the consolidation of power under the (presumed and assumed) authority of Rome that the so-called “One True Church of Rome” arrogated and abrogated all authority, including even the interpretation of scripture, to itself.


110 posted on 07/30/2008 2:28:43 PM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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To: roamer_1

Many people left the church because they want to contracept, they want to shack up, they want to abort. They want to choose lifestyles they know not to be good. They want to pick and choose. And why not with the plethora of non-Catholic Christian churches you can shop for whatever suits your whim.

A friend had a daughter who was living with a guy. She wanted to get married in the Catholic Church because... well just because, it was her right. The priest told her that they needed to have separate living arrangements until they were married. The couple actually left the Catholic church because the priest told them shacking up was a sin. He was more delicate in his expression. The mother called the bishop and complained that “how dare the priest make them feel bad”.

I know another woman who used to be Catholic. She left the church because the evening her mother passed away the priest was not available to go to the hospital. She was Pentecostal for a few years. Now she follows Joel Osteen.

A good friend grew up Baptist. When she married she joined the Catholic Church. She remarried after her husband passed away. This husband was never “churched” and was told by friends growing up that all Catholics are going to hell. They church shopped for a while. Now they rather like Joel, as well. To her, all Christian churches are created equal. Changing churches, denominations or associations is no big deal.


111 posted on 07/30/2008 2:32:37 PM PDT by Jaded (Does it really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: wagglebee
I'm a Lutheran (LCMS) and I don't believe the Marian beliefs, nor does *any* Lutheran. Nothing the Catholic church teaches about Mary is believed by Lutherans apart from the fact that she was the mother of our Lord and that she conceived Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. We recite the Apostle's Creed.

Also, no Lutherans practice private confession. We practice a general confession. But private confession to a pastor, inside a little booth, that we do not do. I believe the church, in the Lutheran Confessions, still supports the notion of private confession, but it is not considered a sacrament nor is it at all practiced by any Lutheran body that I've ever heard about. Sacraments in the Lutheran Church are believed to be only those that contain some outward sign - Baptism (the water) and the Lord's Supper (bread & wine).

112 posted on 07/30/2008 2:34:24 PM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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Comment #113 Removed by Moderator

To: roamer_1

Fuzzy math?


114 posted on 07/30/2008 2:39:47 PM PDT by Jaded (Does it really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: LiteKeeper
Why would literalism be a disadvantage.

Because it is not taking the scripture in its historical, cultural and linguistic context. Ever received that circular e-mail how those who rely on the prohibition of homosexuality in the Leviticus should also stone adulterers, etc.? That is effective against literalism; it is not effective agains tthe Catholic teaching that distinguishes between ancient Mosaic law and the law of the gospel.

absence of independent local leadership

... means that the secular authority has no one answerable to it in the Catholic clergy, which responds to Rome.

natural law

Many Protestants believe in the law that they find in the Bible, but they do not believe in the natural law outside of it. This allows the civil authority to insist that the legal constructs that they invent are universal, while the Catholic teachings only apply to Catholics, and the Biblical precepts only to those who believe in the Bible.

monastic tradition

... counters secularism because it shows a moral social model independent of it and indifferent to the secular world.

education by celibate clergy

... counters secularism insofar as introduction of sexual promiscuity to the youth is an important secularist tactic.

conditional obedience to civil laws

Every Protestant denomination that supports abortion "rights", for example, does so because it is the "law of the land". Besides, given the multiplicity of the denominations it is easy to portray any ethical tenet as optional and matter of individual preference. See the part about the natural law.

116 posted on 07/30/2008 2:43:32 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: sandyeggo
Catholicism stands just as soundly today as it did 2000 years ago.

Are you saying that the RCC of today is the same as that of the first centuries after the resurrection of Christ?

117 posted on 07/30/2008 2:54:18 PM PDT by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: sandyeggo

Holds to the same dogmas and doctrines?


119 posted on 07/30/2008 3:02:47 PM PDT by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: sandyeggo
The tension between throne and altar that existed in every European polity from Constantine until the 19th Century, the "Holy Roman Empire" (which I will admit was as much a secular polity as it was ridden with clerical influence, often fought by the Emperor himself), the power of the Church over temporal affairs (see Mazarin, Cisneros, Richlieu, etc.).

In the 20th century, the most notorious examples of clerically influenced governments were in Spain, Portugal, and Croatia. Franco, Salazar, and Pavelic basically allowed the Church to run cultural policy, and (to a lesser extent than the European polities from the 4th to 19th centuries) political affairs as well.

121 posted on 07/30/2008 3:11:42 PM PDT by Clemenza (No Comment)
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To: sandyeggo

May God have mercy.


122 posted on 07/30/2008 3:14:52 PM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: sandyeggo

Let’s pick one out of the stack - the priesthood.

Are you saying that the Roman Catholic priesthood of today is the same as that “from the book of Acts on”?


124 posted on 07/30/2008 3:24:15 PM PDT by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: sandyeggo
I do not deny that Catholics had it rough in England, and America. Nor do the Protestants deny it. But it pales in comparison to the Catholic scourge. Not only in time, but in scale. Furthermore, the Protestants do not claim to be inerrant, nor have they ever claimed to be such. That is the point.

The RCC cannot claim to be inerrant unless they also choose to embrace their past actions as correct as done in Christ's name. To do so would be inexcusable, so I really see no defense wrt the subject whatsoever.

125 posted on 07/30/2008 3:24:52 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1

Christ founded the Catholic Church circa 32 AD.


126 posted on 07/30/2008 3:28:49 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Petronski
Actually, it was the Holy Spirit who founded the church on the day of Pentecost.

Acts chapter 2 gives the account.

128 posted on 07/30/2008 3:30:48 PM PDT by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: sandyeggo
I'm interested in your reply.

Is the Roman Catholic priesthood the same today as it was from the founding of the church "from Acts onward"?

129 posted on 07/30/2008 3:32:15 PM PDT by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: roamer_1
Furthermore, the Protestants do not claim to be inerrant, nor have they ever claimed to be such. That is the point.

You haven't been on the Religion threads for very long, have you? /rhetorical question

It's possible to see one protestant say about another protestant confession, "Them fellers was wrong." But you will never hear them say it about their own confession. That's what's so funny: all the other protestants didn't get it quite right, they made mistakes, but if we concentrate on the Catholics, we won't have to take responsibility for all the (other guys') protestant errors.

It's almost like the demand for reparations. No living American owned slaves. Likely, their grandparents didn't either. No living black American was a slave, and likely their grandparents weren't either. But white America OWES reparations, because of what was done in the past.

In the same way, each individual Catholic is held responsible, by protestants, for every Catholic, pope, priest, and writer throughout the last 2000 years. I mean, seriously, posters have asked "What about what you did to Gallileo?" Honestly. Sometimes I wonder.

132 posted on 07/30/2008 3:56:03 PM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Well said!


133 posted on 07/30/2008 3:56:30 PM PDT by Celtman (It's never right to do wrong to do right.)
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To: Petronski
Christ founded the Catholic Church circa 32 AD.

Yeah, riiight...

134 posted on 07/30/2008 4:13:09 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: sandyeggo; wagglebee
Much of what is considered "Catholic scourge" is outright falsehood.

Revisionism at it's finest. I have already begun this discussion with wagglebee, and have begun to order the research necessary to refute it properly. I will publish within a few months time (as time allows). I will be certain to raise an article here to discuss the Crusades and Inquisitions in Europe and Northern Africa more fully at that time.

My experience regarding this issue is certainly from anti-Catholic sources, but not Protestant ones. I had made a study of ancient European trade routes some years ago, and in the course of that study, relied upon the work of bards and troubadours, as well as more conventional first person historical sources.

I am so offended by the revisionism I find going on regarding this subject that I have made it a personal priority to correct it.

stay tuned.

135 posted on 07/30/2008 4:28:32 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Boagenes; lightman
I'm a Lutheran (LCMS) and I don't believe the Marian beliefs, nor does *any* Lutheran. Nothing the Catholic church teaches about Mary is believed by Lutherans apart from the fact that she was the mother of our Lord and that she conceived Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. We recite the Apostle's Creed.

Also, no Lutherans practice private confession. We practice a general confession. But private confession to a pastor, inside a little booth, that we do not do. I believe the church, in the Lutheran Confessions, still supports the notion of private confession, but it is not considered a sacrament nor is it at all practiced by any Lutheran body that I've ever heard about. Sacraments in the Lutheran Church are believed to be only those that contain some outward sign - Baptism (the water) and the Lord's Supper (bread & wine).

This just goes to show how very far the LCMS is removed from Lutheranism.

136 posted on 07/30/2008 4:35:54 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: redgolum

Any insight?


138 posted on 07/30/2008 4:49:31 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: Judith Anne; Dr. Eckleburg; Lord_Calvinus
It's possible to see one protestant say about another protestant confession, "Them fellers was wrong." But you will never hear them say it about their own confession.

Hmmm. You must not have heard me going round about with the venerable Dr. Eckleburg and Lord Calvinus (among others) the other day about infant baptism then, huh? I am Dutch Reformed (technically) attending a Presbyterian (PCA, [Yes Dr.E, it is PCA]) Church, who has significant differences with Reformed theology on infant baptism, and with aspects of predestination. I had no problem speaking my mind at all. And as one might expect, they did not seem timid in their replies, either.

In the same way, each individual Catholic is held responsible, by protestants, for every Catholic, pope, priest, and writer throughout the last 2000 1600 years.

Again, that is *not* the point. The reason I brought it up was as an example of errancy. NOTE: The Catholic Church is no less inerrant than any other church. WE (churches, confessions) ALL HAVE, AND WILL, MAKE MISTAKES. Sometimes they are big ones. The difference is that the rest of us admit to them. We confess...

139 posted on 07/30/2008 4:56:43 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: wagglebee; Boagenes
Boagenes;

I respectfully suggest that you need to reread the Lutheran Confessions, especially the, Augsburg Confession,:

Article XI: Of Confession.

1] Of Confession they teach that Private Absolution ought to be retained in the churches, although in confession 2] an enumeration of all sins is not necessary. For it is impossible according to the Psalm: Who can understand his errors? Ps. 19, 12.

Regarding actual practice, it is much more common that you may suppose. The 250+ member/subscribers to the Rule of the Society of the Holy Trinity (comprised of LCMS, ELCA, and ELCIC clergy) have bound themselves to this chapter:

Chapter V
Confession and Absolution

Individual or personal confession of sins is to be kept and used by us for the sake of the absolution, which is the word of forgiveness spoken by a fellow pastor as from God himself. Therefore, members will:

1. Learn and adopt the understanding and practice of Confession and Absolution as described in the Augsburg Confession (Article XI, XII, XXV), and the Small Catechism.

2. Seek out a trustworthy pastor who will be willing to serve as a confessor and who will be able to be available for one's individual confession regularly and frequently.

3. Prepare to make individual confession by examining one's personal life and relationship with God and others in the light of the Ten Commandments. Also helpful are the penitential Psalms (6, 32, 38, 51, 102, 130, 143) and the Prayer of Manasseh in the Apocrypha.

4. In preparation for hearing the confession of others, make regular and frequent use of Confession and Absolution, keep confidences, so as to be worthy of the trust of others, read and reflect on the Holy Scriptures so as to provide a reservoir of passages with which to comfort consciences and strengthen the faith of penitents (see FC, SD XI.28-32).

5. Both as penitent and confessor, refrain from extraneous conversation so that attention is centered on the penitent's confession of sins, the Absolution or forgiveness of sins, and the confessor's use of Scripture passages which comfort the conscience and encourage faith in the Word of God which absolves; refrain from challenging or evaluating the confession; use the order of Confession and Absolution of the Small Catechism or that of the service books of the Church.

6. As absolved penitents, expect to be held accountable by the confessor for reconciliation with those whom we have offended and restoration of what we have taken or broken.

7. Confession and Absolution is a sacramental rite of the Church (AP XII.4) and therefore is normally conducted in church buildings where provision can be made for privacy and confidentiality.

Since Confession and Absolution has fallen into disuse among many of us, its restoration demands utmost care and concern for both penitent and confessor. Introduction to and initial use of Confession and Absolution may call for simply following the order of Confession and Absolution lest the penitent worry about a full enumeration of sins or the confessor about comforting and encouraging with passages of Scripture.

Time for private Confession is a part of every Chapter and General Retreat.

140 posted on 07/30/2008 5:29:33 PM PDT by lightman (Waiting for Godot and searching for Avignon)
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To: lightman

Thanks for the clarification.


141 posted on 07/30/2008 5:37:29 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
This is common to all branches of Lutheranism that I have ever heard of - ELCA, LCMS, WELS, etc. In fact, the more conservative the denomination, the less they allow any Romanism. Marianism is right out, and private confession is almost never practiced by any Lutheran denomination except at the request of the congregant, because they feel they need to.

The LCMS is the best of Catholicism and the best of Protestantism. It's Catholicism without the "made up stuff" and Protestantism without the non-creedal, anything goes, pseudo-Baptist, non-denominational, Emergent rubbish.

142 posted on 07/30/2008 5:50:00 PM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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To: wagglebee; Boagenes; lightman
Private confession is still practiced, but is not considered a sacrament because it does not have a outward sign. It used to be pretty wide spread, but as with everything else it isn't used as much today. As an example, you used to have to have some sort of meeting with the pastor before Communion (which because of the old Circuit pastor days, was very infrequent). My grandfather and father remember that.

As for the Marian doctrines. As a Lutheran, you can hold to the perpetual virginity of Mary, and Luther himself leaned very close to Mary not committing any particular sin (but not free from Original Sin). In many European Synods, that is considered “in bounds”, and used to be in the ball park for what is now the LCMS until the decree on the Immaculate Conception of Mary (which was not a doctrine at the time of the Reformation). Some of the other Marian doctrines such as the Assumption were not thought of, as they were not very popular in Northern Europe at that time.

Of interest, Ordination can be considered a Sacrament according the Book of Concord (forgive me, I forgot the citation). And in fact some of the Scandinavian synods like the Finnish one have a valid Apostolic Succession (which most of the mid European countries can not have due to the 30 years war and the disruption it caused). However, this is not considered a Sacrament in the LCMS (though a Rite, which is at times very close to the RCC view of a Sacrament, much like Confirmation).

Got to go. My pregnant bride is calling!

143 posted on 07/30/2008 5:54:11 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: All

Praise be to God. This is a very interesting and needed read.

I’ve only read up through the first 50 posts, but some of the best Prot/Cath posts I’ve read in a long time.

There is a deep spiritual need for all Christians, despite our diffeneces in doctrine, to come together for three reasons:

1. Christ would want us together, despite differences, standing in harmony together as Christian brothers and sisters.

2. Christ would want us to fight the strong pervasive secular sentiment against Life, and indeed God Himself.

3. God is Light, Truth, and Good. Our world has a lot of darkness, deceit, and evil. I’m not talking about social gospel, but the Full Gospel of Jesus Christ. What we Christians know is Christ’s real Mission.

I hope that we can make distinctions between our doctrinal combat, where we each believe we are right with God, and feel compelled to defend and persuade; and our overall rightness in walking in Christ, together against literal Satanic evil that is enveloping the souls of our nation and world.


144 posted on 07/30/2008 5:57:38 PM PDT by rbmillerjr ("bigger government means constricting freedom"....................RWR)
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To: lightman
I said that in my post. It's affirmed in the Augsburg Confession, but it is not regularly practiced (I think most Lutherans of any of the denominations would say, "Confession, what?") by any Lutheran denomination, mostly because they do not believe it is a sacrament like the Catholic Church does. You'll notice that what you quoted says it should be retained, but they don't treat it as a sacrament any longer, and they also don't insist on enumeration of sins.

It's still in the confessions because Luther and the early Reformers were all ex-Catholic monks and such, and didn't let go of their upbringing easily. But scripture plainly shows that we confess our sins to God, and he is just, and will forgive us. In fact, they use one of the Psalms (see what you quoted) to support the stance that one cannot enumerate each and every sin. It's this part of Catholicism that causes such terrible guilt in most Catholics. We live by grace, we are justified by Christ. We don't live under sin any longer.

What drove Luther from the church was that he could not understand how one could be forgiven and yet still feel such constant, oppressive guilt. He was going to Confession so many times a day that the priest acting as his confessor once said to him, "Brother Martin, it is not necessary for you to confess every fart." It was this that made him turn to the scriptures and find there the simple message - we are saved by grace, through faith, not by how good or bad we behave - we cannot save ourselves through trying to be "good enough" - we can never be good enough. And before you lob out the antinomian argument, I suggest you read the Lutheran Confessions and the history of Luther's argument, because you can find all the details there that I don't have time or energy to even begin to start reiterating here. But Luther knew that "even while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us."

145 posted on 07/30/2008 6:03:27 PM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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To: rbmillerjr
I love Catholics as my brothers and sisters in Christ. I admire much about the Catholic Church and I absolutely love Pope Benedict XVI (see my posts on the threads about his book "Jesus of Nazareth"). I argue relentlessly against much of what they believe, but that is only about doctrine. So long as any Christian subscribes to the basic tenets that are laid out in the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed, then they are my brother or sister in Christ, so far as I'm concerned.

Brothers and sisters argue, sometimes heatedly, but they still love each other. I will argue points of doctrine no end, but I will never suggest that a Catholic is any less Christian than I consider myself to be. People who say silly things like "Catholics are not Christian", are simply fools. Heaven is not filled with only Catholics, or only Lutherans, or only Baptists, or only...(but I'm pretty sure there won't be many Episcopalians there...)

146 posted on 07/30/2008 6:11:05 PM PDT by Boagenes (I'm your huckleberry, that's just my game.)
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To: Boagenes; lightman
What drove Luther from the church was that he could not understand how one could be forgiven and yet still feel such constant, oppressive guilt

That is a sin of presumption: refusal to believe in sacramental absolution. Related to that is apparent Luther's scrupulosity. Should every compulsive sinner start his own church, or was Luther somehow special?

147 posted on 07/30/2008 6:14:38 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: sandyeggo
So, I'm assuming the research materials you are ordering are better than what you've had to this point?

I meant ordering as to mean compiling. Quite a bit is here, though I will have to dig through my stacks to find it again, The rest will largely come from a friend's library in Chicago. Sources will be attributed, naturally.

As far as what I have had to this point, I suspect you refer to "Estimates of the Number Killed by the Papacy in the Middle Ages and later"by David Plaisted, which I posted some little while ago. If you can offer a reasonable refutation other than "it's anti-Catholic", you are welcome to. With the exception of his rather presumptuous extended extrapolation wrt the Waldensians, it is a rather good piece, and is attributed for your perusal.

148 posted on 07/30/2008 6:21:27 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: annalex
Related to that is apparent Luther's scrupulosity.

Precisely why the citation from Psalm 19 is in the Augsburg Confession's section on Confession.

Should every compulsive sinner start his own church, or was Luther somehow special?

We are all compulsive sinners, according to Romans 7. Indeed, the teaching of simul justus et peccator ("simultaneously justified and sinner", or sometimes condensed to "justified sinner") is one of Lutheranisms doctrinal gifts to Christendom; and, like some other gifts, one that is misuderstood both by extreme Catholics who have trouble grasping the full import of Justification and by extreme Calvanists/fundamentalists who have trouble grasping that the truly redeemed can ever sin.

Luther was somehow special in that he enjoyed the protection of a German Prince--otherwise he would have met the same fate as John Huss.

149 posted on 07/30/2008 6:30:11 PM PDT by lightman (Waiting for Godot and searching for Avignon)
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To: Jaded
Many people left the church because they want to contracept, they want to shack up, they want to abort. [...] Changing churches, denominations or associations is no big deal.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

150 posted on 07/30/2008 6:40:31 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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