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Evangelicals: Change of Heart toward Catholics
The Black Cordelias ^ | July 28, 2008 | The Black Cordelias

Posted on 07/29/2008 4:39:52 PM PDT by annalex

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Comment #151 Removed by Moderator

To: xzins

Good points . . .

Though I don’t think the ship is all that tightly ran . . . on the whole.


152 posted on 07/30/2008 6:49:52 PM PDT by Quix (key QUOTES POLS 1900 ON #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Petronski
The Catholic Church--as founded by Christ circa AD 32--has made no errors on the Gospel message...just as He promised.

Hmmn... but the Church of Rome, as founded by Leo IX in AD 1054, has erroneously departed from the Gospel of Christ.  Specifically, the novelties of salvation by works and the sacrifice of the mass twist the Gospel almost beyond recognition.

153 posted on 07/30/2008 7:03:12 PM PDT by Celtman (It's never right to do wrong to do right.)
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To: Gamecock

What an absolutely HORRIFIC history.

What is it with this RC edifice obsession with

the dead/graduated?

Only the LDS seem more obsessed with the dead/graduated!


154 posted on 07/30/2008 7:03:19 PM PDT by Quix (key QUOTES POLS 1900 ON #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Celtman
...the Church of Rome, as founded by Leo IX in AD 1054...

LOL

I don't know what that is.

I'm talking about the Catholic Church.

155 posted on 07/30/2008 7:05:03 PM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: annalex
Because it is not taking the scripture in its historical, cultural and linguistic context. Ever received that circular e-mail how those who rely on the prohibition of homosexuality in the Leviticus should also stone adulterers, etc.? That is effective against literalism; it is not effective agains tthe Catholic teaching that distinguishes between ancient Mosaic law and the law of the gospel

You have completely misunderstood, and/or misrepresented, the evangelical position on the "literal" interpretation of Scripture. Evangelicals adhere to the historical-grammatical interpretation of Scripture: Scripture taken in its historical context, with attention paid specifically to the literally genre of any given passage: poetry is interpreted differently from historical narrative, etc. You have created a straw man argument that does not apply to what evangelicals actually believe. Further, dispensational theology believes you must distinguish in the way in which God rules in this world or the economy by which He mediates His rule in this world at different points in time.

156 posted on 07/30/2008 7:21:59 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: annalex
monastic tradition

... counters secularism because it shows a moral social model independent of it and indifferent to the secular world.

Except that there is nothing biblical about the monastic life...and there is no way that a "secular" society will see it as a model for themselves. It is viewed by the secular world as an aberration, and certainly of no value whatsoever to them.

157 posted on 07/30/2008 7:26:38 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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Comment #158 Removed by Moderator

To: sandyeggo
I read the Didache here (all versions), and from the context it's not singling out a "priest" to perform the baptism. The audience appears to be Christians in general.

Only reference to priests is in chapter 13, and the subject is prophets being treated as "high-priests".

I think you're assuming that it is addressed to priests but the content and context doesn't support that assumption.

So, it's an instruction as to how to baptize but it's not specifically directed to priests.

Looks like a difference to me. Then: any Christian could baptize. Now: Roman Catholic priest baptizes.

159 posted on 07/30/2008 7:29:55 PM PDT by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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Comment #160 Removed by Moderator

To: annalex
education by celibate clergy

... counters secularism insofar as introduction of sexual promiscuity to the youth is an important secularist tactic.

And the secular world says that the celibate clergy have no understanding of the non-celibate world. Again, there is no way that the celibate lifestyle is a model for them...and they will disregard it.

Having said that, the Bible clearly speaks to this subject, and a "celibate" teacher is not required to speak to the biblical standard. Again, your argument that this is the exclusive property of the Roman Catholic just doesn't follow.

161 posted on 07/30/2008 7:34:30 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: annalex
conditional obedience to civil laws

Every Protestant denomination that supports abortion "rights"

You have confused Protestant denominations with evangelicals. There is not a single evangelical denomination that I know of that is pro-abortion. And don't look now, but there are American Catholics who are pro-choice (read, pro-death of the unborn). And once again, the pro-life position is not the exclusive property of Catholicism. You have staked out exclusive territory that is just not yours alone.

162 posted on 07/30/2008 7:37:52 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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To: Quix

I would disagree. On the whole the RCC is a very tightly run ship. Having a few weak persons in the US Army does not make it a loosely run military organization. The command structure is tight. The outputs are regular and according to standards. The same with the RCC. Organizationally, it is in every nation on the planet, and nearly in every county-sized unit. It has an administrative hierarchy that goes to the lowest level. It communicates extremely well up and down the line. It has a clear idea of the outputs it desires, and it is very successful at implementing those to standard.

I’m not talking about theology here, quix. I’ve addressed that in an earlier post.


163 posted on 07/30/2008 7:39:33 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain -- Those denying the War was Necessary Do NOT Support the Troops!)
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Comment #164 Removed by Moderator

To: sandyeggo
Pastor can baptize, correct, but it's not the rule.

When I was baptized after getting saved, I was baptized by my younger brother and a good friend of mine and they used the formula.

So in the Didache the instruction about baptism wasn't specifically given to priests, was it? It was given to all Christians.

165 posted on 07/30/2008 7:46:32 PM PDT by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: sandyeggo

The issue is “influence on the secular world,” and the assertion that the Roman Catholic Church is the only antidote, to the exclusion of the Protestant/Evangelical church. The uniqueness of John the Baptist cannot be taken as a model for the monastic life...and has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion.


166 posted on 07/30/2008 7:47:57 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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Comment #167 Removed by Moderator

Comment #168 Removed by Moderator

To: sandyeggo

You are excused!


169 posted on 07/30/2008 7:54:50 PM PDT by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America; the Islamization of Eurabia)
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Comment #170 Removed by Moderator

To: sandyeggo
You said:

The subject would take a book. I don't have time for that at the moment, but here's one example of priestly duty "then" and "now":

Here's my original question as found in post #127:

Is the Roman Catholic priesthood the same today as it was from the founding of the church "from Acts onward"?

You cited the Didache as an example of a priestly duty "then" and "now", and I read it and made the assertion that there isn't contextual evidence that the Didache's intended audience is all Christians, not just priests.

171 posted on 07/30/2008 8:07:08 PM PDT by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: sandyeggo
We really don’t know to whom the instruction was given, do we?

Yes, we can know.

We can read the document and use our minds and intellect look at the context.

172 posted on 07/30/2008 8:23:26 PM PDT by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: annalex; Gamecock
Suddenly, Catholic apologetics, which is as old as the Catholic Church itself, got a leg up and there was an explosion of books, magazines and websites

Telling, eh?

Among Christians, "apologetics" is about Christ, the Gospel, and God's Word.

Here, it's Rome, Rome, Rome.

173 posted on 07/30/2008 8:25:35 PM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: wagglebee
It's nice to see someone acknowledge that the "Five Solas" did not exist for the first fifteen centuries of Christianity.

Ha.

I'm a non-denominational Christian and I find that genuinely funny.

174 posted on 07/30/2008 8:26:24 PM PDT by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: BibChr

“Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. “ - Jesus, John 17:17


175 posted on 07/30/2008 8:29:40 PM PDT by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: sandyeggo
Sorry, you have suspected wrong. I haven't followed a conversation with you regarding this subject (that I recall, anyway) so I'm approaching you with a clean slate.

In that case, I want you to understand that this has become a sore point for me (as you probably have ascertained). Your reply to me, giving the impression that "most of what they say is all lies" is what set me off, and for that I apologize.

I also want you to understand that it is the history that I am concerned with. I am "old school" in that I will happily take the word of the scholars closest to the events in question over those seeking to revise their work- It must be so, by the nature of the discipline, and the evidence must be overwhelmingly to the contrary to overturn their good works. With that in mind, I invite you to look at Plaisted's work. If you can get past the anti-Catholic tone to look at the numbers and the references he cites (which is why I posted it in the first place), and would care to offer an argument of substance, I would be happy to hear your reply.

I was going specifically by your comments in the post to which I responded; namely that you'd said your earlier observations had come from admittedly anti-Catholic sources and bards and troubadors! A rather rickety stool indeed.

This offers me some consternation, as Catholics seem to put such faith in oral tradition... The songs of the bards and troubadours are exactly that, and much can be learned of everyday life, history, and every sort of thing, even if they are a bit whimsical or irreverent at times. Especially when dealing with the Occish peoples and the Celts, where no other record exists. If one wishes to learn of them first hand there are few other sources.

As to the sources being anti-Catholic, one would be hard pressed to find anything in medieval Europe that would be a neutral source- either one is with Rome, or one is crushed.

My study was to consider ancient trade routes as established by the Phoenicians, supposing their good friends the Hebrews would have partnered with them quite a bit, and to look for evidences of Hebrew colonies along those routes. That evidence is there, and easy to establish. But then I thought one might suspect that the fruits of the Pentecost (why was every one in Jerusalem again? Remember speaking in [up to 12] tongues?) might just turn up along those same routes... And they do. In the Iberian Peninsula of Spain, at Gibraltar, the South of France, in Brittany, in the British Isles, in the Benelux region, and so on. The world was a whole lot bigger than we have been lead to believe, I'd guess.

It is odd, though, that all of these places are also the generators of supposed heresies against the RCC, isn't it?

At any rate, with the little that Rome has left us in the way of evidence, all that is left is the tales of troubadours and bards, the rest is buried in the ground, waiting to come back into the light.

As an aside, your moniker has always intrigued me... did you drop your waffle at the beach? :P

176 posted on 07/30/2008 11:38:46 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: Gamecock
I just can't help but think that somewhere in here the Catholic church committed an error of some sort.

What an amazing and repulsive display. Luckily for the recipient (unlike most), he was already dead before the RCC authorities assailed him for his alleged offenses.

177 posted on 07/31/2008 12:57:28 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1; Quix; NYer
Quix in 154: What an absolutely HORRIFIC history.
roamer in 177: What an amazing and repulsive display.

Nothing but crickets from our Catholic FRiends.


178 posted on 07/31/2008 1:30:29 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: Gamecock; Quix
Nothing but crickets from our Catholic FRiends.

Funny how that works out.

I would still like an RCC answer explaining how 1200 (nearly) continuous years of crusades, inquisitions, genocides, religious persecutions, torture, rape, pillage, sword, and blood do not represent an errant Church.

I really would like an answer.

179 posted on 07/31/2008 1:44:18 AM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just Socialism in a business suit.)
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To: roamer_1; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper
***I would still like an RCC answer explaining how 1200 (nearly) continuous years of crusades, inquisitions, genocides, religious persecutions, torture, rape, pillage, sword, and blood do not represent an errant Church.***

The answer, if one is provided, will go something like this: What you need to realize is that The Catholic Church is inerrant, in so far as it is inerrant. The Pope is infallible, but only in so far as he is infallible. You Proddies just don't understand because you are Proddies.

180 posted on 07/31/2008 2:05:50 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: All

lol, I see the anti catholic Harpie crowd is here.


181 posted on 07/31/2008 3:05:38 AM PDT by rbmillerjr ("bigger government means constricting freedom"....................RWR)
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To: roamer_1
The source of the old heresies is an interesting study. Part of it was (as you suggest) the early Christian communities were cut off from each other. Many of these later died out (such as in Britain).

The other main source was attempts to merge Christianity with Greek philosophy. This is where the Gnostics come in, and some of the other more odd heresies.

But for the later Medieval heresies, these can't be the source.

182 posted on 07/31/2008 4:43:57 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: roamer_1; Quix; Dr. Eckleburg; Forest Keeper
Amazing how RCs equate telling the truth with anti-Cathloicism.

Which, I guess, on second thought, is what it is....

183 posted on 07/31/2008 5:00:13 AM PDT by Gamecock (The question is not, Am I good enough to be a Christian? rather Am I good enough not to be?)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

I know that Pelagian was the source of a heresy, but could you give details of the Pelagian view of justification?


184 posted on 07/31/2008 5:17:46 AM PDT by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: roamer_1
I would still like an RCC answer explaining how 1200 (nearly) continuous years of crusades, inquisitions, genocides, religious persecutions, torture, rape, pillage, sword, and blood do not represent an errant Church.

Before responsing, it would be helpful to know your understanding of that period in history. Please post references and links. Thank you.

185 posted on 07/31/2008 5:43:41 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: roamer_1

Why am I not surprised.


186 posted on 07/31/2008 6:52:53 AM PDT by Jaded (Does it really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: Gamecock

ITTM

INDEED TO THE MAX.


187 posted on 07/31/2008 7:17:37 AM PDT by Quix (key QUOTES POLS 1900 ON #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Truth Defender

I see Judith Anne has called the mod in because what I said was antagonistic. I can’t see it but... That’s what they do.


188 posted on 07/31/2008 7:24:26 AM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: roamer_1
I would still like an RCC answer explaining how 1200 (nearly) continuous years of crusades, inquisitions, genocides, religious persecutions, torture, rape, pillage, sword, and blood do not represent an errant Church.

An honest . . . TRUE-TO-HISTORY-TRUE-TO-REALITY ANSWER from the RC reps on that matter?

Hell would be more likely to hold an Olympic snowball fight, first.

THEY CANNOT--EVEN TO THEMSELVES--EVEN TO THE PERSON IN THEIR MIRRORS--DARE TO RISK EVEN THE KERNAL of such an honest, true-to-history-and-reality logical answer to that question.

If they do, the house of cards is in shambles.

Have you ever seen one of those string and stick sculptures--all tensioned just right etc? Their house of cards is like that only chaotic vs orderly.

The rubber stretches from point A to point W. And from point C to point X. And from point K to point YY. and from point G to point QQ . . . a Gordian Knot would be a slipknot by comparison.

The mutually exclusive terminal level deal breaker BRAZEN CONTRADICTIONS within the edifice and it's endless reams of dogma and fantasized doctrines & !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! of men and worse . . . are as obvious as warts on a toad . . . unless one is addicted there-to; obsessed there-with and worshiping there-at.

Some folks with sufficient fair-mindedness and openness to Holy Spirit to learn and see truth, yet . . . may well profit eternally from your great efforts. It increasingly looks like a number of rabid folks hereon may well not be included in that cluster.

189 posted on 07/31/2008 7:27:18 AM PDT by Quix (key QUOTES POLS 1900 ON #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Truth Defender

Being born again means you can’t get away with the stuff you used to. The Holy Spirit is at work in your life to rid you of the garbage you bring into your Christian walk. When you begin to change, then people KNOW the Holy Spirit is in you. When you begin to love people without reservation, then people know the HS is within you. You cannot live the Christian life without Him working in and through the believer. All this takes time, to be sure, but there should be evidence of the HS in your life when you are born again.


190 posted on 07/31/2008 7:27:48 AM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Gamecock
. . . What you need to realize is that The Catholic Church is inerrant, in so far as it is inerrant. The Pope is infallible, but only in so far as he is infallible. You Proddies just don't understand because you are Proddies.

INDEED TO THE MAX! That is INDEED their irrational construction on reality as endlessly DEMONSTRATED by thousands of pages of convoluted rubber logic hogwash on these pages.

All with the most polished expression of incredulity that anyone would consider such rubber logic to be the least bit amiss . . . along with terminal Olympic Class haughty indignation that there could possibly be the least micro-gram of a flaw in such assertions.

Maybe some need an ice dunking to be awakened and brought back to this reality.


191 posted on 07/31/2008 7:34:49 AM PDT by Quix (key QUOTES POLS 1900 ON #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: rbmillerjr

NO.

But a cluster of Believers who are against

—rubber histories
—rubber Bibles
—rubber logic
—rubber dictionaries
—fantasized dogma
—fantasized unrelatives of Jesus
—fantasized purities

. . . heresies . . . doctrines and traditions of man and worse . . .


192 posted on 07/31/2008 7:36:31 AM PDT by Quix (key QUOTES POLS 1900 ON #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Gamecock

THE TRUTH

is certainly against the corrupt elements, lying elements,

rubber history elements
rubber Bible elements
rubber logic elements
rubber dictionary elements

political power-mongering bureaucracy elements

etc. of the RC edifice.

Of course . . . without all that . . . it wouldn’t be anything resembling the RC edifice we are all familiar with . . .

which must be where the terror comes from . . .

to imagine that with all the sacred cows gored . . . what would be left . . .

That would be frightful for those addicted to worshiping the sacred cows.


193 posted on 07/31/2008 7:38:59 AM PDT by Quix (key QUOTES POLS 1900 ON #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: NYer

Doesn’t really matter—parsing words and historical facts is back to the rubber edifice.

The summary in that paragraph is sufficient for the point.

The BRAZENLY OBVIOUS CONTRADICTIONS are inescapable.

Y’all simply refuse to deal with them.


194 posted on 07/31/2008 7:40:23 AM PDT by Quix (key QUOTES POLS 1900 ON #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: roamer_1; sandyeggo

I believe that I have previously addressed your claim that every violent death in Europe from the fall of Rome through the 18th Century is somehow attributable to the papacy:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2023605/posts?page=11638#11638
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2023605/posts?page=11102#11102
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2023605/posts?page=10782#10782
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2023605/posts?page=10195#10195


195 posted on 07/31/2008 7:44:32 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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Comment #196 Removed by Moderator

To: All

“Evangelicals: Change of Heart toward Catholics”

You can’t expect everybody to want to unite against secularism and anti Christian sentiment for Christ. But most of those are not evangelicals. They think evangelicals are wrong as well. Everybody is wrong but them.

“You shall know them by thier fruits”


197 posted on 07/31/2008 8:25:33 AM PDT by rbmillerjr ("bigger government means constricting freedom"....................RWR)
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To: lightman
the teaching of simul justus et peccator ("simultaneously justified and sinner", or sometimes condensed to "justified sinner") is one of Lutheranisms doctrinal gifts to Christendom

The Christians had been reading Romans 7 for 15 centuries prior to Luther without the need to invent self-serving doctrines that directly contradict it. Some gift.

198 posted on 07/31/2008 10:28:53 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: LiteKeeper; sandyeggo
You have completely misunderstood, and/or misrepresented, the evangelical position on the "literal" interpretation of Scripture

It is true that every time anyone says anything about any evengelical position, an evangelical will be found who would say it is a misrepresentation. You just followed up with two posts to me that apply the same error of fundamentalist literalism to monasticism and celibacy (combined with apparent ignorance of the scripture passages concerning John the Baptist). Well, whatever the evangelical manner of scriptural interpretation is, your posts illustrate why it is inadequate and un-Catholic.

199 posted on 07/31/2008 10:36:51 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: LiteKeeper
You have staked out exclusive territory that is just not yours alone.

Masybe I was unclear in my 82 when I said "these are the things that are together uniquely Catholic, that are each a bastion against the forces of secularism". I did not say that each of these things alone is uniquely Catholic, but rather that they together, as a list, only apply to the Roman Catholic Church.

200 posted on 07/31/2008 10:40:49 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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