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Beginning Catholic: Catholic Purgatory: What Does It Mean? [Ecumenical]
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Posted on 08/13/2008 9:02:31 AM PDT by Salvation

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1 posted on 08/13/2008 9:02:32 AM PDT by Salvation
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To: All
From Scripture -- A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Scripture

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.


2 posted on 08/13/2008 9:03:57 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

BTTT


3 posted on 08/13/2008 9:05:26 AM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: All
From Scripture -- Purification After Death By Fire

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.


4 posted on 08/13/2008 9:05:39 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Thanks!


5 posted on 08/13/2008 9:05:47 AM PDT by fetal heart beats by 21st day (Defending human life is not a federalist issue. It is the business of all of humanity.)
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To: nickcarraway; Lady In Blue; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; Catholicguy; RobbyS; markomalley; ...
Catholic Discussion Ping!

Please notify me via FReepmail if you would like to be added to or taken off the Catholic Discussion Ping List.

6 posted on 08/13/2008 9:07:01 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: fetal heart beats by 21st day

LOL! You beat to the ping!


7 posted on 08/13/2008 9:07:33 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Thanks for posting (and your pings). Interesting. Educational.


8 posted on 08/13/2008 9:08:32 AM PDT by PGalt
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To: Salvation

One thing we can do for souls in Purgatory is pray for them, especially the most abandoned souls. This is very important.


9 posted on 08/13/2008 9:10:21 AM PDT by hershey
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To: Salvation

Question:

From the Apostles Creed
“on the third day, He arose again from the dead.”

Was Jesus in Purgatory?


10 posted on 08/13/2008 9:15:17 AM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: hershey

I find I Cor 3:15 the strongest scriptural support for purgatory, and interestingly it also shows the importance of a persons works.


11 posted on 08/13/2008 9:15:17 AM PDT by ChinaGotTheGoodsOnClinton (To those who believe the world was safer with Saddam, get treatment for that!)
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To: hershey
Nine Days of Prayer for the Souls in Purgatory

Novena for the Holy Souls in Purgatory
 

Prayer to Our Suffering Savior for the Holy Souls in Purgatory

O most sweet Jesus, through the bloody sweat which Thou didst suffer in the Garden of Gethsemane, have mercy on these Blessed Souls. Have mercy on them.
R. Have mercy on them, O Lord.

O most sweet Jesus, through the pains which Thou didst suffer during Thy most cruel scourging, have mercy on them.
R. Have mercy on them, O Lord.

O most sweet Jesus, through the pains which Thou didst suffer in Thy most painful crowning with thorns, have mercy on them.
R. Have mercy on them, O Lord.

O most sweet Jesus, through the pains which Thou didst suffer in carrying Thy cross to Calvary, have mercy on them.
R. Have mercy on them, O Lord.

O most sweet Jesus, through the pains which Thou didst suffer during Thy most cruel Crucifixion, have mercy on them.
R. Have mercy on them, O Lord.

O most sweet Jesus, through the pains which Thou didst suffer in Thy most bitter agony on the Cross, have mercy on them.
R. Have mercy on them, O Lord.

O most sweet Jesus, through the immense pain which Thou didst suffer in breathing forth Thy Blessed Soul, have mercy on them.
R. Have mercy on them, O Lord.

(Recommend yourself to the Souls in Purgatory and mention your intentions here)

Blessed Souls, I have prayed for thee; I entreat thee, who are so dear to God, and who are secure of never losing Him, to pray for me a miserable sinner, who is in danger of being damned, and of losing God forever. Amen.

 


Written by St. Alphonsus Liguori this novena has prayers for each day which are followed by the Prayer to Our Suffering Savior for the Holy Souls in Purgatory


Day 1 

Jesus, my Savior I have so often deserved to be cast into hell how great would be my suffering if I were now cast away and obliged to think that I myself had caused my damnation. I thank Thee for the patience with which Thou hast endured me. My God, I love Thee above all things and I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee because Thou art infinite goodness. I will rather die than offend Thee again. Grant me the grace of perseverance. Have pity on me and at the same time on those blessed souls suffering in Purgatory. Mary, Mother of God, come to their assistance with thy powerful intercession.

Say one Our Father, one Hail Mary, and the Prayer to Our Suffering Savior for the Holy Souls in Purgatory
.


Day 2 

Woe to me, unhappy being, so many years have I already spent on earth and have earned naught but hell! I give Thee thanks, O Lord, for granting me time even now to atone for my sins. My good God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee. Send me Thy assistance, that I may apply the time yet remaining to me for Thy love and service; have compassion on me, and, at the same time, on the holy souls suffering in Purgatory. O Mary, Mother of God, come to their assistance with thy powerful intercession.

Say one Our Father, one Hail Mary, and the Prayer to Our Suffering Savior for the Holy Souls in Purgatory .


Day 3

My God! because Thou art infinite goodness, I love Thee above all things, and repent with my whole heart of my offenses against Thee. Grant me the grace of holy perseverance. Have compassion on me, and, at the same, on the holy souls suffering in Purgatory. And thou, Mary, Mother of God, come to their assistance with thy powerful intercession.

Say one Our Father, one Hail Mary, and the Prayer to Our Suffering Savior for the Holy Souls in Purgatory .


Day 4 

My God! because Thou art infinite goodness, I am sorry with my whole heart for having offended Thee. I promise to die rather than ever offend Thee more. Give me holy perseverance; have pity on me, and have pity on those holy souls that burn in the cleansing fire and love Thee with all their hearts. O Mary, Mother of God, assist them by thy powerful prayers.

Say one Our Father, one Hail Mary, and the Prayer to Our Suffering Savior for the Holy Souls in Purgatory .
 


Day 5 

Woe to me, unhappy being, if Thou, O Lord, hadst cast me into hell; for from that dungeon of eternal pain there is no deliverance. I love Thee above all things, O infinite God and I am sincerely sorry for having offended Thee again. Grant me the grace of holy perseverance. Have compassion on me, and, at the same time, on the holy souls suffering in Purgatory. O Mary, Mother of God, come to their assistance with thy powerful intercession.

Say one Our Father, one Hail Mary, and the Prayer to Our Suffering Savior for the Holy Souls in Purgatory .


Day 6 

My Divine Redeemer, Thou didst die for me on the Cross, and hast so often united Thyself with me in Holy Communion, and I have repaid Thee only with ingratitude. Now, however, I love Thee above all things, O supreme God; and I am more grieved at my offences against Thee than at any other evil. I will rather die than offend Thee again. Grant me the grace of holy perseverance. Have compassion on me, and, at the same time, on the holy souls suffering in Purgatory. Mary, Mother of God, come to their aid with thy powerful intercession.

Say one Our Father, one Hail Mary, and the Prayer to Our Suffering Savior for the Holy Souls in Purgatory .


Day 7 

God, Father of Mercy, satisfy this their ardent desire! Send them Thy holy Angel to announce to them that Thou, their Father, are now reconciled with them through the suffering and death of Jesus, and that the moment of their deliverance has arrived.

Say one Our Father, one Hail Mary, and the Prayer to Our Suffering Savior for the Holy Souls in Purgatory .


Day 8 

Oh my God! I also am one of these ungrateful beings, having received so much grace, and yet despised Thy love and deserved to be cast by Thee into hell. But Thy infinite goodness has spared me until now. Therefore, I now love Thee above all things, and I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee. I will rather die than ever offend Thee. Grant me the grace of holy perseverance. Have compassion on me and, at the same time, on the holy souls suffering in Purgatory. Mary, Mother of God, come to their aid with thy powerful intercession.

Say one Our Father, one Hail Mary, and the Prayer to Our Suffering Savior for the Holy Souls in Purgatory .


 Day 9

My God! How was it possible that I, for so many years, have borne tranquilly the separation from Thee and Thy holy grace! O infinite Goodness, how long-suffering hast Thou shown Thyself to me! Henceforth, I shall love Thee above all things. I am deeply sorry for having offended Thee; I promise rather to die than to again offend Thee. Grant me the grace of holy perseverance, and do not permit that I should ever again fall into sin. Have compassion on the holy souls in Purgatory. I pray Thee, moderate their sufferings; shorten the time of their misery; call them soon unto Thee in heaven, that they may behold Thee face to face, and forever love Thee. Mary, Mother of Mercy, come to their aid with thy powerful intercession, and pray for us also who are still in danger of eternal damnation.

Say one Our Father, one Hail Mary, and the Prayer to Our Suffering Savior for the Holy Souls in Purgatory .
 


12 posted on 08/13/2008 9:18:12 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: hershey
More prayers
13 posted on 08/13/2008 9:19:10 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: kellynla

We don’t know for sure — maybe someone has a better answer than me.

I would say that the Bible quote Christ to the Good Thief: Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise.”

So where was Paradise at that time?

As far as sin is concerned — I would say that Jesus only descended into hell (Purgatory at that time) to free the captive souls.

Anyone have more substantial info on this?


14 posted on 08/13/2008 9:22:28 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: All
Beginning Catholic: Catholic Purgatory: What Does It Mean? [Ecumenical]

Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]

PURIFYING THE SOUL ON EARTH IS WORTH 100X WHAT IT TAKES AFTER [Catholic Caucus]

What Happens After Death?

Purgatory

A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory

The Doctrine of Purgatory

The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus

Required for entrance to Purgatory? Personal question for Cathloic Freepers.

(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory

Straight Answers: What Is Purgatory Like?

Do Catholics Believe in Purgatory?

Purgatory, Indulgences, and the Work of Jesus Christ (Discussion)

Prayer to Release the Souls of Purgatory

The Forgotten Souls in Purgatory

Praying for the dead [Purgatory]

15 posted on 08/13/2008 9:25:23 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation; kellynla

Actually, Jesus descended into “the Bosom of Abraham,” or the “Limbo of the Fathers,” where the righeous dead were waiting for the coming of the Messiah.


16 posted on 08/13/2008 9:25:56 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: All
Beginning Catholic: The Catholic Church's Origin [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Church Authority In Scripture [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Catholic Tradition: Life in the Spirit [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Infallibility: Keeping the Faith [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Moral Conscience: Catholic Teaching for a Strong Faith [Ecumenical]

Beginning Catholic: Catholic Morality: Life in Christ [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: When Was The Bible Written? [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Books of the Catholic Bible: The Complete Scriptures [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: A Strong Start in the Faith: The Catholic RCIA Stages [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: The RCIA Inquiry Stage In the Catholic Church [Ecumenical]

Beginning Catholic: Accept No Substitutes: Catholic Orthodoxy [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Basic Tenets of Catholicism [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: The Creed Of The People Of God: The Essentials/Catholic Belief [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Creeds: Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Catholic Purgatory: What Does It Mean? [Ecumenical]

17 posted on 08/13/2008 9:28:05 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Pyro7480

Thanks for that. I have heard those phrases before. Now I will retain them.


18 posted on 08/13/2008 9:29:52 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

I have a book about St. Joseph compiled by French Benedictines that beautifully described the tradition that when St. Joseph died, he went there to announce the good news that their wait was coming to an end, and that when Our Lord arrived to preach the Gospel to them and bring them to Heaven, St. Joseph was the first one to “make the jump.”


19 posted on 08/13/2008 9:32:34 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: kellynla

I believe he “descended into hell” which, prior to His arrival, contained all the dead since they had no means of entry into Heaven, having died before Christ opened the gates to Heaven via His sacrificial death.

Those who embraced Christ’s message were released.

Those who rejected His message remained.

After His resurrection, God’s saving grace was and remains available.

Only those who obey him perfectly in this life can enter Heaven directly.

Those who are free from serious, unrepented sin must undergo temporary purification in purgatory.

Those who refuse His grace and die obstinate in their sins go to hell.


20 posted on 08/13/2008 9:33:47 AM PDT by fetal heart beats by 21st day (Defending human life is not a federalist issue. It is the business of all of humanity.)
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To: Pyro7480

“Actually, Jesus descended into “the Bosom of Abraham,” or the “Limbo of the Fathers,” where the righeous dead were waiting for the coming of the Messiah.”

Interesting. Thanks
Do you have any links for that.


21 posted on 08/13/2008 9:34:26 AM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: Salvation

“— or immediate and everlasting damnation. (Catechism, 1022)”

What would a person have to do to get that reward? Not that I think that will be my end (I hope!)...


22 posted on 08/13/2008 9:35:44 AM PDT by nralife
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To: Pyro7480

What is the name of that book. It sounds fabulous!


23 posted on 08/13/2008 9:35:45 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

Thank you so much for posting this. Recently, I re-read CS Lewis’ “The Great Divorce” and really enjoyed his viewpoint. His exploration of sin, and what keeps us out of heaven is wonderful.

But as it is a bit incomplete, this fuller explanation is great.


24 posted on 08/13/2008 9:42:33 AM PDT by Judith Anne
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To: hershey
One thing we can do for souls in Purgatory is pray for them, especially the most abandoned souls. This is very important.

What are we to pray for, exactly? What do you mean by "abandoned souls"?
25 posted on 08/13/2008 9:46:43 AM PDT by armydoc
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To: Salvation
Thank you for posting that novena.

Another thread on Purgatory:

OF GUARDIAN ANGELS AND THE ROLE THEY PLAY NOT JUST ON EARTH BUT IN PURGATORY [Catholic Caucus]
26 posted on 08/13/2008 9:50:20 AM PDT by Miss Didi ("Good heavens, woman, this is a war not a garden party!" Dr. Meade, Gone with the Wind)
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To: Salvation
The Glories of St. Joseph
27 posted on 08/13/2008 9:51:22 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: Pyro7480

Appreciate the link. I will call up and order it locally at the Catholic Book Store.


28 posted on 08/13/2008 9:54:43 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: armydoc

I believe those are the souls, in purgatory, who have no one to pray for them, or are forgotten. I say a special prayer for these souls every night.


29 posted on 08/13/2008 10:04:08 AM PDT by sneakers (Liberty is the answer to the human condition.)
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To: Salvation

Hell is mentioned more than 50 times in the bible.

Heaven is mentioned more than 700 times in the bible.

Purgatory is mentioned 0 times in the bible.

Purgatory is not even described in the bible.

If it existed why would God not speak of it in His Word?


30 posted on 08/13/2008 10:05:11 AM PDT by free_life (If you ask Jesus to forgive you and to save you, He will.)
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To: kellynla
Limbo
31 posted on 08/13/2008 10:16:55 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("If the angels could be jealous of men, they would be so for one reason: Holy Communion." -M. Kolbe)
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To: free_life

I guess you missed the Scripture references inspired by the Holy Spirit.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2061191/posts?page=2#2

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2061191/posts?page=4#4


32 posted on 08/13/2008 10:17:28 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: free_life

My pastor disagrees with you. Hell is mentioned more than heaven.


33 posted on 08/13/2008 10:18:29 AM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation; Pyro7480

While I had a minute, I did some “digging”

In his Exposition on the Apostles’ Creed, Thomas Aquinas asserts that the first and primary reason Christ descended into hell was “to bear the whole punishment of sin, so that he might wholly expiate sin.”

Question: Christ’s descent into hell
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4052.htm


34 posted on 08/13/2008 10:36:12 AM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: Salvation
I've heard it described this way: Those who are called to Heaven retire from this world with an invitation to the feast. Among these, though, are many who are sullied in sin. Who wouldn't want to be purified to enter the feast unstained?
35 posted on 08/13/2008 10:43:52 AM PDT by pgyanke (Public "servants" have decided it's their job to use the public's money to fight the public)
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To: free_life

“Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” (2 Macc 12:46)

It’s mentioned right there.
Do you believe that the Bible is the Word of Our Lord? Then it was mentioned, wasn’t it?


36 posted on 08/13/2008 10:55:33 AM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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Do Catholics still offer up their suffering for the souls in Purgatory?

I hope many went to heaven on the suffering I offered up during my 2 days in labor! : )


37 posted on 08/13/2008 11:31:38 AM PDT by radiohead (Please donate to the flooded libraries in Iowa.)
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To: free_life
If it existed why would God not speak of it in His Word?

Not to flog a dead horse but, of course, Catholics do not think that the Holy Bible comprises the entire Word of God.

38 posted on 08/13/2008 12:12:10 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: kellynla
Thanks for that. There seem to be two streams in Catholic thought about what Jesus was doing in Hell. Sometimes I think they are two ways of expressing the same thing.

One is what you said. The other is the so-called "harrowing" to which Peter alludes and about which there is a very fine description in the apocryphal Acts of Pilate.

I don't know much about it, but I have read that Hans Urs von Balthasar is thought by people who know more than I (a LARGE group) to be wrong in saying that in Hell IHS suffered the extreme alienation from God which is the ultimate effect of sin.

Personally I think that as IHS conquered death by suffering it, it is not so outrageous to think that He harrowed Hell by entering into it fully, so I see no conflict.

39 posted on 08/13/2008 12:12:18 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: radiohead
Do Catholics still offer up their suffering for the souls in Purgatory?

This one does, though generally I just pray that since God knows best what to do with it, He should decide.

40 posted on 08/13/2008 12:33:34 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: radiohead
“Do Catholics still offer up their suffering for the souls in Purgatory?”

This Catholic does...I remember my Irish mother telling us
“offer it up for the poor souls in purgatory”...of course the “pour souls in purgatory” never had to eat my mother's cooking. LOL ...J/K

41 posted on 08/13/2008 12:33:57 PM PDT by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: Mad Dawg

Very interesting concept.


42 posted on 08/13/2008 12:52:22 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: radiohead

I do......while in the hospital three times this last year!


43 posted on 08/13/2008 12:53:01 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

None of those scriptures mention purgatory nor an place or state between this world (life) and heaven. surely if there was such a place God just come out and plainly state so in His Word, after all it would be absolutely necessary we know about it. He tells us clearly about heaven and hell but not this purgatory; speaks for itself that there is no such place. I believe the doctrine of purgatory to be very dangerous and would say more to warn those that believe this only because of a genuine concern for others eternity but in respect for the rules of this ecumenical thread I can’t and won’t.

Trust the finished work of Jesus on the cross and nothing else. For nothing else can be trusted.


44 posted on 08/13/2008 1:00:57 PM PDT by free_life (If you ask Jesus to forgive you and to save you, He will.)
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To: sneakers
I believe those are the souls, in purgatory, who have no one to pray for them, or are forgotten. I say a special prayer for these souls every night.

Again, what specifically are you praying for? What are you asking God to do?
45 posted on 08/13/2008 1:08:51 PM PDT by armydoc
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To: netmilsmom
“Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.” (2 Macc 12:46)

It’s mentioned right there. Do you believe that the Bible is the Word of Our Lord? Then it was mentioned, wasn’t it?

I would reply what you quote above is not in the bible. This quote is in opposition to Jesus Who said He alone paid for all sin and if another gospel is preached not to follow it.

Question. I am trying to discuss this without offending anyone, but seeing that this is an ecumenical thread would it be better if I stopped and said no more in this thread?

46 posted on 08/13/2008 1:11:18 PM PDT by free_life (If you ask Jesus to forgive you and to save you, He will.)
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To: free_life

Maccabees is in the Catholic Bible.

Please remember this is an ecumenical thread. No antagonism.


47 posted on 08/13/2008 1:19:27 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation
My pastor disagrees with you. Hell is mentioned more than heaven.

I did a search in Esword (NASB & KJV) and those are the numbers it showed with similar words included ie hell...hades etc.

48 posted on 08/13/2008 1:27:28 PM PDT by free_life (If you ask Jesus to forgive you and to save you, He will.)
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To: free_life

You should READ THROUGH the whole thread and see the SCRIPUTRAL EXAMPLES.


49 posted on 08/13/2008 1:28:50 PM PDT by Jaded (does it really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: Salvation
Maccabees is in the Catholic Bible.

Please remember this is an ecumenical thread. No antagonism.

You are right I will stop there as I have strong beliefs on this subject and don't want to push the envelope.

50 posted on 08/13/2008 1:31:31 PM PDT by free_life (If you ask Jesus to forgive you and to save you, He will.)
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