Posted on 08/21/2008 1:45:32 PM PDT by Gamecock
"The Bible does not say For God so loved the elect, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." And so when I read "God is not willing that any should perish" in II Peter 3:9, I take it to mean that, quite literally, God does not want anyone going to hell.
Every verse Calvinists use in their arguments is that God is promising ONLY their self-described 'elect'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=124vIQMRRHI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T5nJcnJEfw
There is a huge difference between God loving some and loving everyone.
I can't say that I have ever used the phrase "God loves you" when evangelizing.
So to answer you question, as instructed in Scripture, I trust in the first and second use of the law. I unpackage God's wrath against sinners (and you can do this without screaming and spitting and waving your arms wildly. Ray comfort does this extremely well, I love watching him do this on TV) and how God came down to earth on a cosmic rescue mission to save all who repent and believe in Christ's atoning death.
I don't lead them in the Sinner's Prayer
I don't tell them God loves them. Why? Because we do have examples in Scripture of God hating some people, so how can I assure them that God loves all?
I do treat them with the utmost respect.
I give them as much time as needed as possible during our conversation to ask questions.
If they seem to respond I offer to take them to church on Sunday where they can hear more.
If they don't want to go to church with me I make it a point to know churches in the area that preach Christ crucified and encourage them to attend one of those.
I also try to focus in on their hangup (i.e. the exclusivity of Christ's claim, objection that Christ rose from the dead, the historicity of Christ)
If at all possible I follow-up.
I realize that there is such a thing as pre-evangelism. I might not be used to bring that person to faith, but perhaps to plant the seed that may not shoot up and blossom for months or years.
I do take my time. We moved into a neighborhood a few years ago and stood in the front yard late one night and prayed that God would show us who he would save on our block. Turns out the nice family two doors down were placed in our path to be saved. The wife took two years to convert. She would come to our door 2-3 nights a week asking questions, some times the same questions over and over again over a couple of weeks. When we move away she locked herself in the bathroom and cried for two hours, then looked up and cried out to Jesus. Her family is slowly coming to the faith.
I fully realize that it is God who saves, and not me. I am but a tool used to sow seeds. I don't get frustrated when someone doesn't believe, I rejoice when they do. I have seen people come to faith when I have been tongue tied and felt like I wasn't saying anything cohesive. At other times I felt like I was really on and saying all the right things and people looked at me the way a dog looks at a television.
It isn't until God regenerates their heart, that is causes them to be born again, that they can receive Christ as their Savior. I am thankful when God uses me in to further His Kingdom.
***If God has already chosen then why did Christ die for the world’s salvation? Seems a little bit of a waste of time.***
If we are dead in our sins, no one would come to God without him first making us alive. (born again)
It's a "hair's breadth" from Rome.
Either God elects based on His good pleasure alone and not on any good works men have done/might do, or men get themselves elected by their own good efforts and pious intentions.
Salvation is by free and unmerited grace through faith in Christ, and that is not of ourselves. It is a gift from God to whom He will.
Wesley was an excellent preacher and a devout Christian, but he contributed to the eventual erosion of men's understanding of God's sovereignty, instead replacing it with God's passivity and ultimate ineptitude. I prefer George Whitefield.
Not at all. We are like the great Calvinist Paul, who recognized that he is the chief sinner.
Tell you what, FRiend -- a man who can talk as ugly as you can about a fellow Christian has no business posting self-righteous screeds about evangelism.
Who's talking ugly? You have, without Biblical warrant, accused me of being a Pharisee. Now that is being ugly.
True revival is of God, not of man.
The first great awakening was brought about by a squinty eyed Calvinist reading Sinners in the hands of an angry God in a squeaky monotone voice by candle light.
The second great awakening, which called for manipulating people through new excitements resulted in Mormonism and other cults and huge swathes of burnt over areas that have never recovered.
Keep reading...
"Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." -- John 6:65
Do all men "come unto" Christ? No. Therefore the Father does not give all men the ability to come to Christ through the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit who regenerates their spirits and renews their minds and gives them new eyes and new ears and a new heart.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them." -- John 17:9-10 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
As strong as the emphasis on free grace is in Wesleyan-Arminianism, it's not so far off.
Either God elects based on His good pleasure alone and not on any good works men have done/might do, or men get themselves elected by their own good efforts and pious intentions.
Faith isn't a good work or pious intention. It is, as you say below, a gift from God.
Salvation is by free and unmerited grace through faith in Christ, and that is not of ourselves. It is a gift from God to whom He will.
Wesley would agree.
Wesley was an excellent preacher and a devout Christian, but he contributed to the eventual erosion of men's understanding of God's sovereignty, instead replacing it with God's passivity and ultimate ineptitude. I prefer George Whitefield.
That is more charitable than some give Wesley credit for around here. I guess I'm not the only one who's mellowed out on the Calv/Arm threads over the years.
Sorry, but it was apt. If anybody's being "over-defensive" I guess you'd be the culprit....
Well, now, that is a new twist on it.... I can just see Mr. Calvin, standing amidst the unbelieving Catholics of Geneva, saying in an absurd parody of John, "Your father Paul rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
Who's talking ugly? You have, without Biblical warrant, accused me of being a Pharisee. Now that is being ugly.
Well, now, given that your behavior immediately brought to mind the passage in question, I am not quite sure why I lack "Biblical warrant". You clearly consider yourself more righteous than "that Arminian over there."
Scripture does not support your either/or claim; nor is there any logical reason to demand such a sharp distinction.
Scripture does indeed tell us the God is sovereign. And Scripture also tells us that we are responsible for our actions: Jesus promises judgment, and calls for repentence -- neither of which make sense unless our own efforts matter to God.
One need not claim anything like equal roles in the matter of salvation; but it is contrary to Jesus' own words to claim we humans have no role in it.
Just got your post this morning, not ignoring you. Good questions and I like the word picture of “holes in my coat”. If there are holes here, then I need to alter my belief. Because what is important is “What does the Bible say about these things?”
So to your questions one at a time, beginning with “Would man not instinctively seek God?” You have correctly caught that I think the Bible answers, “That’s right, he would not.” This is what most reformed folks think Paul is getting at in the letter to the Romans 3:10ff when he is quoting from all throughout the Old Testament that man will not, does not, cannot seek God. Like the original post said, the bumper sticker “Wise men still seek him” is not true. Paul says, “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, together they have become worthless...” and so on.
The fact that Paul is noting this has been taught by the Bible writers (David, Joel, Isaiah, etc) throughout history leads us to believe that, “That’s right, no one will on his own instinctively, or otherwise, seek God. If I find myself seeking the true God of Israel, and His Son, then I am being pursued, I have been rescued by Him first.”
Then, “How can this be?” If by this you mean, how can it work that a man is created in God’s image, yet doesn’t want God? That is a rather complicated question. The Bible doesn’t explain a lot about how it is possible, it more deals with “that” it is possible and I am left to cope with it. I am not aware of a specific passage or section of Scripture that deals with how it is possible. Sorry.
“Has it to do with the incident in the Garden of Eden? But didn’t the Almighty foresee this...and make allowances?” I am not real clear on what you are asking here. If it is, “Did the so-called ‘fall’ of man cause this and if so, didn’t God know that was going to happen?” I believe the answer given by the Bible is, “Of course, yes, He knew and He planned that man would sin from the get-go” How we know this is that the reference to Jesus being selected to die for our sins before the creation of the world (I Pet. 1:20) and that this plan was well laid out before all the trouble started (Acts 2:23). Thus, you are correct, the Bible tells us that God did, in fact, arrange this failure and then its resolution, for those whom he has decided to rescue.
“After all, he was willing to negotiate with Lot...” This is an interesting question because it shows you are wrestling with the implications of God managing everything, including evil. When you encounter a passage that appears that God is “negotiating” with a man, or questioning him, or asking him something, watch the entire scene play out before you conclude that God did not already know all about this matter ahead of time. For example, when God goes into Eden and asks “Adam, where are you?”, do you really think from the entire passage that God was scratching His head wondering where the guy had run off to? That Adam went missing? Not at all. From other passages we know that God knows absolutely all knowledge at all moments, and that that all is occurring in exactly His plan. He is taking the part of a character in the story, questioning us about a matter, asking something here or there. All the while knowing exactly what is true and what will occur. This is what gives us such wonderful confidence in Him. He really is God! And, yes, the Bible tells us if a man is to be damned for all eternity, God foresaw it and hardened him to that doom. Romans 9. Read the entire chapter, or better read the entire letter. That is precisely Paul’s argument.
Hopefully, this doesn’t dodge your “hole picking”.
So we shouldn’t talk about distinctives here?
Sorry, but it’s the free-willer who stands there and says “I am smarter than the unbeliever because I “choose” Christ.”
..and it's the calvinist who says that God is nothing more than a small boy with a magniying glass who kills ants for the sheer pleasure of it.
I suspect the truth is somewhere in between.
As a non-calvinist, I have never claimed to be smarter than a non-believer. I have seen the error of my ways, though, and see a solution.
I don’t pretend to speak for Gamecock, because he has the Scriptural picture well in hand and can defend himself, but I really don’t think he is saying that he considers himself more righteous than “that Arminian over there.”
On the contrary, he is saying he is not more deserving than anyone. Being elected for no reason visible to man makes this a very humbling proposition to anyone who comes to Christ. And, I am out on a limb here, but I certainly do not think that Arminians are necessarily not believers. If God elects, He can rescue anyone. But, we do know that a lot of rescued men and women believe mistakes about the Gospel and about what the Scripture teaches. Further, some believers teach error, and are still believers. Doesn’t mean we should encourage it, but errors have been part of our problem for all of history. Paul confronted Peter about his error of retreating from the Gentiles when the Judaizers showed up. Read Galations 2:7ff and watch the sparks fly. Peter was clearly in error and perhaps teaching some error, but Paul said he was sent to the Jews with the Gospel.
So, clarifying a mistaken understanding and accusing another of not being a believer are two different things. Your words indicate you have been captured by the great Hound of Heaven. He sought you, made you alive from the dead, clothed you in His righteousness. Why must this be initiated by you to be good news?
Excellent!
I have often considered how fruitless I am. I have had a circle of friends that are mostly ‘new age’. For a time I drifted along rather influenced by them. Attended their church etc. Really knowing they were in the dark but interested in knowing their beliefs. ‘We are God’. Is the main center. A bit obscured, of course.
During a time of family medical crisis ..
I returned to the one true God and prayed for forgiveness.
Now in regard to the friends, I feel I am weak in their regard. I know how they think and how they belittle ordinary main line religion. They are not Bible readers and yet they do excerpt a few verses that suit them.
In fact I mostly avoid them now. Even friends of 30 years. I feel guilty and a bit of a loss about it. I do miss the good parts of our relationships. One of the reasons I stay away is I feel inept to preach the gospel to them as they have already discarded it. God forgive them; truly, ‘they do not know what they do’. Amen.
I am living for Christ. I love Jesus Christ, God the Father and the Holy Spirit. And feel like a failure in their behalf.
I often have thought that Missionaries go abroad to peoples they do not know as there is no personal connection to anyone there.
Our own families are often the hardest to reach.
Do you struggle with these same issues?
Read the Bible ... God will meet you there.
Aren't we brothers in Christ? Each living as best we know how in light of the scriptures to be imitators of Christ? Now Christ did say some harsh words to those that had perverted the scripture.
We are not to focus on the tares. We are to focus on the harvest.
“The fields are white to harvest and the laborers
are few.”
Luke10:2; John 4 35-36.
“Pray the Lord of the harvest send forth laborers to harvest”. Amen.
The god (Satan) of this world sows confusion abroad.
What a special word.... "distinctives." What does that mean, exactly? Does it "distinguish" between the elect and non-elect? Does having the wrong "distinctive" even matter, in terms of who and who is not "elect?" You behave as if it does ... which contradicts what you say about election.
Since you apparently consider yourself among the "elect," your "distinctives" are pretty much the same as what the Pharisee said in Jesus' parable.
Sorry, but it’s the free-willer who stands there and says “I am smarter than the unbeliever because I “choose” Christ.”
That's "running dog lackey free-willer" to you, FRiend. Do you have any more perjoratives to add?
**I have seen the error of my ways, though, and see a solution.**
Why?
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