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"Catholic" Speaker Pelosi Denies that Catholicism Condemns Abortion
LifeSiteNews ^ | Monday August 25, 2008 | John Jalsevac

Posted on 08/25/2008 11:46:50 AM PDT by Antioch

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To: Antioch; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

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Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

51 posted on 08/26/2008 5:15:45 AM PDT by narses (...the spirit of Trent is abroad once more.)
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To: wequalswinner; Northern Yankee

Doctors of the Church are not medical doctors who are Catholic.

(that confused me once too)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05075a.htm


52 posted on 08/26/2008 5:22:56 AM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: frankjr

So the question is, will he talk to her while she is in Denver?


53 posted on 08/26/2008 5:25:16 AM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: Northern Yankee
Pelosi should be excommunicated. I don't say this lightly. She has just brought scandal to the church, and if the church doesn't take action it creates even more confusion to the average Catholic.

Actually I believe she already is. It is automatic. The problem here is that her bishop doesn't seem to think she is at issue with the teachings of the church. He is putting her soul in jeopardy and his as well by not addressing this with her.
54 posted on 08/26/2008 6:10:10 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore
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To: kosta50
"That will be the day"? Well, you might be right, based on previous track records. But things are starting to change, I think. Even Archbishop Wuerl of Washington gave Pelosi a rebuke for her comments. It is becoming clear to at least some of the bishops that skirting the issue of Catholic politicians and their ability to take Communion with impunity despite pro-abortion voting records is spiralling out of their control. Perhaps Benedict put a buzz in their ears, too. I don't know.

But it seems to me that the Dems at their convention yesterday were right about one thing: "we are at a crossroads" in this country. It will not be much longer that the Christian voice will even be heard in this country on moral issues, let alone acted upon. The secularists are gaining overall, despite what we might wish or think. It's true. I think some in the Church leadership can see the trends, and will no longer cozy-up to liberal Democrats to further certain aspects of their social agenda that are not reprehensible in themselves (even if usually ill-advised), when abortion, euthanasia, infanticide and human cloning are all advocated by leftist Democrats. They're beginning to wake up, and they're seeing that this "alliance of convenience" with the Left is gaining them nothing, it is making more and more rank-and-file Catholics get more jaundiced about Church leadership and overal relevancy, and the footdragging merely serves to help the Church spiral more and more out of even a generalized influence.

Now that Archbishop Burke is on his way to Rome, I think you will see the Vatican start lighting more fires under the American bishops who keep dragging their feet with respect to disciplining "Catholic" politicians who keep falling off the fence on the wrong side. I could be wrong, sure, but I really think things will start improving. If (God forbid!) Obama is president, and there is a serious Dem majority in both houses of Congress, the situation will quickly become so bad that any coddling of Democrats will be tantamount to apostasy. Few buishops want to be perceived in that way, and, in spite of their fuzzy-headedness, few of them, I trust, want God to perceive them that way!

55 posted on 08/26/2008 6:50:58 AM PDT by magisterium
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To: netmilsmom

I knew that netmilsmom, I just had the feeling Rush didn’t. See, how many “Doctors” are there, can’t remember.


56 posted on 08/26/2008 6:57:21 AM PDT by SaintDismas
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To: kosta50
I meant to add that the Orthodox are not all that lily-white on this issue, either. Paul Tsongas and Michael Dukakis, for starters, were not publicly challenged ny their bishops or the priests where they attended Liturgy. I'm sure there are more, but I am familiar with these two as part of my penance called “living in Massachusetts.”
57 posted on 08/26/2008 6:57:51 AM PDT by magisterium
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To: Alex Murphy; Dr. Eckleburg; Quix
"Catholic" Speaker Pelosi Denies that Catholicism Condemns Abortion

Seems like there are a lot of Catholics interpreting Catholic tradition.

Not surprised with the above considering how many pro-murder Pols were given communion during the service presided over by the Pope.

58 posted on 08/26/2008 6:59:53 AM PDT by Gamecock (The truth of Christianity does not hinge on my personal experience.)
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To: Northern Yankee
Washington archbishop rips Pelosi on abortion
59 posted on 08/26/2008 7:00:23 AM PDT by Jaded (does it really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: Gamecock

Pols.... now there’s an entire religion in itself.


60 posted on 08/26/2008 7:01:23 AM PDT by Jaded (does it really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: Antioch

It’s up to Catholics to know the truth and to do the right thing.


61 posted on 08/26/2008 7:02:30 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Please tell him that I do not care to drink with him nor any other Russian son of a bitch.)
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To: magisterium
I realize I was not very charitable in my previous post, but let's face it: the Catholic Church has been lukewarm for the past 40-plus years.

Is there any wonder we have pro-abortion individuals like Pelosi, Biden and Kerry? It's almost as if the Catholic Church will do anything not to be perceived as "intolerant," even of those who openly call her teaching a lie, while claiming to be "ardent, practicing Catholics."

Where did they get the idea that "historically" the Catholic Church was not opposed to abortion, if not from apostate elements in the Church?!?

The damage incurred by the uncontrolled revolution of the Vatican II (regardless what the real intent was) can very well cause the Church to split, unimaginable as it may seem, because there are actually self-styled Catholics like Pelosi who believes that she is "orthodox," and who are convinced that the traditionalists are the "apostates" who are trying to "change" the Church.

Some people are "offended" with the "Greek" cross carried by +Benedict XVI, and not to mention his traditional vestments, as if the Church was in apostasy for the past 2,000 years and has only become the "true" Catholic Church in the last 45! After all, the Traditional Catholic Mass was treated as an anathema for all practical purposes during the entire reign of Pope John Paul II (practically one generation!). Is there any wonder there are not more Pelosis and Bidens and Kerrys?

62 posted on 08/26/2008 7:14:02 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

Yes and no. To give the bishops some benefit of the doubt. The only way you will ever know if their bishops have spoken to them is if the politicans drag along a news crew. The bishops won’t publicize it. Maybe they should but they wont.


63 posted on 08/26/2008 7:14:21 AM PDT by Jaded (does it really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: magisterium
I meant to add that the Orthodox are not all that lily-white on this issue, either

My comment was not intended to whitewash the Orthodox. You may add Spiro Agnew to your list...besides Paul Tsongas and Michael Dukkakis. WE believe that the path to hell is paved with the heads of the bishops.

American Orthodoxy, especially Greek, Antiochan and to some extent OCA Churches have been heavily "westernized" in some of their practices due to a large number of Protestant converts who make up their congregations.

One will notice "mass Communion" in these Churches, where everyone in the congregation every Sunday received it, even though it is impossible for one priest to confess all these people the night before, and the Church requires Confession, 12-hours fasting and prayer before Communion (as the Catholic Church used to).

Most of these churches will, for example, allow Ethiopian Orthodox to receive Communion, but I have personally seen priests turn down people at the chalice. During the Pope's visit to Turkey, the Ecumenical Patriarch is seen refusing someone.

My point is that once you introduce major changes in the worship, you introduce relativism. And that's precisely what the Vatican II created. No parallel changes were made in the Orthodox Churches.

Our Divine Liturgy remains practically unchanged from the 4th century. The extant changes include the location of the pre-sanctified Gifts, the full iconostasis, certain petitions were added, including the one "It is Meet..." concerning the Theotokos (not found in the 3rd century St. Basil's Divine Liturgy, but only in the 4th century St. John Chrysostom's shorter version).

The practice of administering both Body and Blood mixed in the chalice was a 6th century addition. In some typikons certain prayers by the priest are made versus populi (i.e. the Ambo prayer), some are read silently, other aloud, some use a curtain during the Consecration symbolizing the Mystery, etc. But the Divine Liturgy (what used to be called the Holy Mass in the Catholic Church) remain essentially unchanged.

If someone approaches the chalice to receive Communion and believes things contrary to the Church the burden is on his soul. If he openly calls Church teachings a lie and receives Communion, it's to the condemnation fo the priest who administer the Communion .

All in all, the Church has to do her part and the believers theirs. If the Chursh fails to do her part, it is on her conscience.

64 posted on 08/26/2008 7:44:16 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: ozzymandus
Why doesn't the Catholic Church excommunicate pro-abortion politicians who pretend to be practicing Catholics? This has been going on for over 30 years, and the church does nothing. And why don't they even remove a political radical like Pfleger from the pulpit? I see more hypocrisy from the Catholic church than from even the left-leaning denominations.

BINGO!

The answer is likely that the too many priests and bishops are really practicing Liberation Theologists. Their god is Karl Marx. Liberal/Marxist politicians like Pelosi and Biden are their priests and priestesses.

65 posted on 08/26/2008 7:54:58 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: wequalswinner

Whoops! Sorry.

I’m serious, a couple years ago, I had never heard the term.


66 posted on 08/26/2008 8:56:30 AM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: Jaded

Thanks!


67 posted on 08/26/2008 10:47:12 AM PDT by Northern Yankee (Freedom Needs A Soldier)
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To: kosta50

As long as Pelosi and others like her can publicly disagree with the Vatican without any repercussions, the message to all Catholics is: believe and do whatever you feel is right; the Church will not censure you.

Totally right on. Here’s Pelosi’s view on priests refusing communion to pro-abort politicians:

“I think some of it is regional,” she said, “It depends on the bishop of a certain region, and, fortunately for me, communion has not been withheld and I’m a regular communicant, so that would be a severe blow to me if that were the case.”


68 posted on 08/26/2008 10:55:58 AM PDT by Antioch (Benedikt Gott Geschickt)
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To: Antioch
Here’s Pelosi’s view on priests refusing communion to pro-abort politicians: “I think some of it is regional,” she said, “It depends on the bishop of a certain region, and, fortunately for me, communion has not been withheld and I’m a regular communicant, so that would be a severe blow to me if that were the case.”

Since when is refusing communion a private decision of a priest/bishop? Is there anything that's not left to individual interpretation?

I understand that the Church would try to warn and educate before taking a drastic step, but her priest/bishop continues to provide communion for her despite the fact that she continues to publicly profess that which the Church condemns.

And what does it make of the whole concept of Communion? Is there no confession required before receiving Communion? And what is confession if not repentance? Once we repent, we never go back. Otherwise it's not repentance.

The Communion has been reduced to a feel-good "Jesus pill" for the week, like some magic medication you take on a schedule that will heal you regardless if you follow the physician's advice or not, or whether you continue to do what originally made you sick.

The only thing I can conclude from all this is that there is a notable and conscious apostasy among Catholic believers and Catholic clergy (which is not to say there isn't any in the Orthodox Church as well).

That's not good news. That's not good for the Church.

69 posted on 08/26/2008 12:31:48 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: netmilsmom

Me neither! And it made me feel a little deficient in my faith as well. I was so happy to hear that St. Teresa was one of the few women in that small group. Uh-oh....can’t remember which Teresa that was, oh well, I need to fix that. Can you imagine meeting all these wonderful people in heaven and having to say...now you are who again?
Uggghh


70 posted on 08/26/2008 2:21:00 PM PDT by SaintDismas
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To: wequalswinner

>>...now you are who again?
Uggghh<<

I have to agree there!


71 posted on 08/26/2008 3:27:45 PM PDT by netmilsmom (The Party of Darkness prefers to have the lights out. - Go Fierce 50!!!)
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To: kosta50

Well you can judge a parish by how many people don’t go up for communion. Gratefully, we have a sizable minority who simply kneel and pray-they know full well they must not be in a state of mortal sin to receive. If you’re not going to confession every two weeks at least, you’re lying to yourself and to God. I see it in those suburban parishes with their systematic row by row pew emptying and extraordinary “minister” roll call. As if 100% of parishioners are in a state of grace at any one time. Right. I lay the blame on our de facto heretical mini-magisteriums (aka National Bishops Conferences, the perfect place for liberal clergy to attack the Church without consequence.


72 posted on 08/26/2008 6:26:02 PM PDT by Antioch (Benedikt Gott Geschickt)
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To: Antioch
Well you can judge a parish by how many people don’t go up for communion

In a way, yes, absolutely.

Gratefully, we have a sizable minority who simply kneel and pray-they know full well they must not be in a state of mortal sin to receive

Thanks God! and may He keep such orthodox community in His grace.

If you’re not going to confession every two weeks at least, you’re lying to yourself and to God

As my priest said to someone: "If you have nothing to confess, then you don't need the Eucharist!"

I see it in those suburban parishes with their systematic row by row pew emptying and extraordinary “minister” roll call.

It's shocking! You will see it in urban Orthodox churches as well! You won't see it in those ethnocentric, old-country churches, such as Russian, Serbian, etc. or in monasteries. You will also notice more women who are covered in church then in those urban ones (it's that urban "pride" you know).

As if 100% of parishioners are in a state of grace at any one time. Right. I lay the blame on our de facto heretical mini-magisteriums

The priests are under pressure to keep parishioners; it's a numbers game. And bishops are foremost in exerting such pressure as if quantity and not quality is what matters.

73 posted on 08/26/2008 7:30:17 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50
American Orthodoxy, especially Greek, Antiochan and to some extent OCA Churches have been heavily "westernized" in some of their practices due to a large number of Protestant converts who make up their congregations.

Well, there you have it, for both of us! As you have observed for a while, and commented on in your previous post, the Catholic Church can be seen going out of its way to be accommodating and not "intolerant" of other groups, even groups that hate the Church. To some extent, so have the Orthodox. I think a lot of this over-accomodation stems from the Sacramental nature of our two Church structures, our basic take on grace and the Sacraments, and, by derivation, our "apparently" exclusivist outlook on salvation. We do not believe in salvation via altar calls, nor do we subscribe to "sola Scriptura" schemes, or, going the other way any form of universalism, for that matter. This makes us appear very rigid and exclusivist to the majority of American Christians who are neither Catholic nor Orthodox. This can be wearing on all concerned in an atmosphere where, in the secular sense, we all generally do not have trouble "getting along." So, over time, there is a strong temptation to trying to go the extra mile to find whatever lowest common denominator might be out there, in order to get our religious and secular lives more in sync with those of our Protestant neighbors. That, it seems to me, is the root of accommodationism.

The same principal applies in Europe, only there it is more along the lines of accommodationism in relation to pure secularists. And it shows! The Church there is even more inclined to syncretistic nonsense than even we are!

As Americans, we are disinclined to come-across as deliberately insulting to our Protestant neighbors, the ones we work with, hang out at the golf/sports/civic club with, and generally socialize with amicably. Yet our theology seems mighty off-putting to them when we start talking about sanctifying grace being necessary for salvation, and that grace being found, primarily, in the Sacraments that Protestants do not have. On a purely human view, we can understand how this can be insulting and "uncomfortable." Therefore, there is a tendency, wherever possible, to minimize (or even "broom" altogether) the differences Catholics have with Protestants over salvation issues and other points of difference. I suspect that the Orthodox are becoming more susceptible to this pressure, too. Perhaps they are just not as far down the line yet, being a smaller proportion of the population and therefore less inclined to chuck their "distinctiveness."

But, I also think that Catholics, at least, are beginning to see that the benefits of overly-cozy ecumenism with Protestants are really almost non-existent. Very little has been gained, while much stands in danger of being permanently lost (here in the West, anyway). Even our bishops are, I think, beginning to see the point! This Pelosi business (although dealing with a putative "Catholic") illustrates my contention. The Church is afraid of alienating some of its Leftist membership, and also afraid of bad PR within the non-Catholic population. The verbal smackdown of Pelosi by several bishops signals that they are less afraid of "what people will say" than perhaps they were in the recent past. They fear alienating the Catholic extreme-Left somewhat less than before. They also seem to be less concerned with general public opinion, among the whole crowd of Catholics and non-Catholics. The alliance of convenience with mainstream Protestants is coming to an end, as the Catholic bishops see they've been made suckers and fools for years with extreme Leftists. It's gotten them nothing over the years, and, what little they think they got, they now realize they might be mere months away from having it all stripped away from them by their very own "allies." Once the Dems gain total control of all three branches, watch the scales suddenly fall off the eyes of Catholic bishops everywhere in this country! We may not go back to the early 1900s mentality entirely, but we will stop trying to be "all things to all men," and will teach the Faith with full vigor again, seeking to make converts, and not mere alliances of convenience. You'll see in a few years... I imagine you folks will stop going down the same road, too. Earlier, probably, since you are not as far down that road to begin with.

74 posted on 08/26/2008 9:02:40 PM PDT by magisterium
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To: kosta50

I love B16’s cross. Is it Greek in origin?


75 posted on 08/26/2008 9:14:48 PM PDT by Patriotic1 (Dic mihi solum facta, domina - Just the facts, ma'am)
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To: AdmSmith; Berosus; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Fred Nerks; george76; ...

Pelosi’s spokesman responds with more gobbledygook, quotes Augustine again
WDTPRS blog | 8/26/2008 | Fr. Z
Posted on 08/26/2008 6:58:53 PM PDT by Pyro7480
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2068783/posts

Washington archbishop rips Pelosi on abortion
The Hill | 08/25/08 | Bob Cusack
Posted on 08/26/2008 4:54:34 AM PDT by radar101
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2068179/posts

Obama, Biden, Foreign Policy and the Catholic Vote
American Thinker | August 24, 2008 | Kyle-Anne Shiver
Posted on 08/24/2008 12:29:04 PM PDT by vietvet67
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2067253/posts


76 posted on 08/26/2008 9:15:37 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/_______Profile hasn't been updated since Friday, May 30, 2008)
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To: magisterium
I agree with everything you wrote. Spot on. The key point being that accommodating , while stemming "from the Sacramental nature of our two Church structures," produced nothing good because the Church has become protestantized (with Catholics leading the Orthodox by a wide margin).

And I agree, it's time to stop.

We may not go back to the early 1900s mentality entirely, but we will stop trying to be "all things to all men," and will teach the Faith with full vigor again, seeking to make converts, and not mere alliances of convenience. You'll see in a few years... I imagine you folks will stop going down the same road, too. Earlier, probably, since you are not as far down that road to begin with.

Spot on. Being "all things to all men" was maybe possible for +Paul, but that is above our pay grade. The East gave up on ecumenism a decade ago. If +Paul believed in ecumenism he would not have written a single Epistle.

Monasteries and European churches never fully accepted ecumenism anyway, treating it more as heresy than anything else.

Protestantism is a choice. We can talk to them, we may even cooperate with them on some basic matters, but we don't believe the same thing as they do. No one said it was easy being Catholic/Orthodox. It's a struggle. We don't sell reservations to heaven. 

Making a distinction between Protestants and secularists is a matter of degree and not of kind. Protestant America is essentially a secular country because there is no penalty—they are all "saved."

77 posted on 08/26/2008 9:33:25 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: Patriotic1
I love B16’s cross. Is it Greek in origin?

I don't know. The East does use similar crosses, but that is a Church tradition to be found in both the East and the West. Both Churches also use simple crosses, and Russians have a simple, tripple cross, which many Orthodox churches use as well.

+Benedict XVI is a patristic pope. He sees the Church, and rightfully so, as an unbroken tradition that can never be "outdated" and therefore everything the Churhc produced is always "valid," and "current," just like the catholic and orthodox faith that was believed everywhere and always.

78 posted on 08/26/2008 9:52:09 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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Cardinal Egan Corrects Speaker Nancy Pelosi
Catholic Online | 8/27/08
Posted on 08/26/2008 4:29:15 PM PDT by tcg
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2068665/posts


79 posted on 08/26/2008 11:16:29 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/_______Profile hasn't been updated since Friday, May 30, 2008)
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To: Antioch; narses
Pinged from Terri Dailies

8mm


80 posted on 08/27/2008 3:21:19 AM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jezu ufam tobie...Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: NYer; Pyro7480; AnAmericanMother; ArrogantBustard; Salvation; sandyeggo; BlackElk

Just in case you didn’t see this - ping!

Pelosi is as full of stuffing as a thanksgiving turkey! (and I’m being kind to the bolshie)


81 posted on 08/27/2008 5:46:24 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA ("When I was a boy, America was a better place" - Dennis Prager)
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To: Convert from ECUSA

Ah . . . that ain’t stuffing! < g >


82 posted on 08/27/2008 6:50:26 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: wequalswinner
There are 33 Doctors of the Church (including BOTH St. Teresas - Teresa of Avila and Therese)

WESTERN ROMAN CHURCH DOCTORS

1 St Ambrose, 340-397 (Pastoral Doctor)
2 St Jerome, 345-420 (Doctor of Biblical Science)
3 St Augustine, 354-430 (Doctor of Grace)
4 St Gregory the Great, 540-604 (Doctor of Hymnology)

EASTERN CHURCH DOCTORS

5 St Athanasius, 295-373 (Doctor of Orthodoxy)
6 St Basil the Great, 330-379 (Doctor of Monasticism)
7 St Gregory Nazianzus, 330-390 (Doctor of Theologians)
8 St John Chrysostom, 345-407 (Doctor of Preachers)

EARLY CHURCH DOCTORS

9 St Ephraem, 306-373 (Doctor of Deacons and Poets)
10 St Hilary, 315-368 (Doctor of Christ's Divinity)
11 St Cyril of Jerusalem, 315-387 (Doctor of Faith and against Heresy)
12 St Cyril of Alexandria, 376-444 (Doctor of the Incarnation)
13 St Leo the Great, 390-461 (Doctor of Doctrine)
14 St Peter Chrysologus, 400-450 (Doctor of Homilies)
15 St Isidore, 560-636 (Doctor of Education)
16 St Bede, the Venerable, 673-735 (Doctor of English History)
17 St John Damascene, 676-749 (The Icon or Image Doctor)
18 St Peter Damian, 1007-1072 (Doctor of Reform and Renewal)

MIDDLE AGE CHURCH DOCTORS

19 St Anselm, 1033-1109 (Doctor of Scholasticism)
20 St Bernard of Clairvaux, 1090-1153 (Devotional and Eloquent Doctor)
21 St Anthony of Padua, 1195-1231 (Evangelical Doctor)
22 St Albert the Great, 1200-1280 (Doctor of Science)
23 St Bonaventure, 1217-1274 (Seraphic Doctor)
24 St Thomas Aquinas, 1225-1274 (Angelic Doctor)
25 St Catherine of Siena, 1347-1379 (Doctor of Unity)

COUNTER REFORMATION CHURCH DOCTORS

26 St Teresa of Avila 1515-1582 (Doctor of Prayer)
27 St Peter Canisius, 1521-1597 (Doctor of Catechetical Studies)
28 St John of the Cross, 1542-1591 (Mystical Doctor)
29 St Robert Bellarmine, 1542-1621 (Doctor of Church State Relations)
30 St Lawrence of Brindisi, 1559-1622 (Doctor of Conversions and Missions)
31 St Francis de Sales, 1567-1622 (Doctor of Authors and the Press)

MODERN ERA CHURCH DOCTORS

32 St Alphonsus Liguori, 1696-1787 (Morality and Marian Doctor)
33 St Therese of Lisieux, 1873-1897 (Doctor of Confidence and Missionaries)

83 posted on 08/27/2008 6:55:48 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: AnAmericanMother

Heeheehee.


84 posted on 08/27/2008 8:42:00 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA ("When I was a boy, America was a better place" - Dennis Prager)
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